Warrior Poet looks like a fun and interesting Samurai archetype

[Zautos']

http://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Samurai%20Warrior%20P oet

What it loses
medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.
mount, weapon expertise, banner, and greater banner
mounted archer and demanding challenge
and all samurai’s bonus combat feats.

Less dmg from challenge.

What it get's
Cha to AC
Flourish (Special talents that they can pick. Almost all of them are good.)
Weapon finesse and 1/2 level to damage if using str for damage. + they work with glaives, katanas, and naginatas.
Spring Attack, Improved Spring Attack and Greater Spring.

There is a flourish that will give you vital strike and it improves with level and it lets you use Vital strike during spring attack. So I think at 18 level you can make 1 Greater vital strikes against 3 different opponents.

A 1 level dip in swashbuckler would give their cha investment a little more kick. With parry and repost.

edit
order of the songbird is great as well and fits with the archetype.
http://www.aonprd.com/CavalierOrders.aspx?ItemName=Order%20of%20the%20Songb ird

[Syries]

That is a neat archetype It's damage potential is interesting, as it seems to be pushing you toward one big hit. You are apparently getting character lvl and a half on a challenge target starting at level 4 on the first hit. Not sure if that was meant to be written like that, and my inclination is that with the stacking rules, you only get character level in damage on the first hit and half character level on subsequent hits in a round.

Early levels I'd want to get bladed brush, but around level 8-10 or so I'd retrain it to benefit from graceful strike.

Full-attacking is still better than spring attacking, even though this archetype seems to push you towards a hit-and-run skirmish build.

Using a glaive, a level 11 samurai is at 1d10+11/+5/+5 on bonus damage from the graceful strike/skirmisher's challenge ability. No way is a spring attacking build getting better damage on a full attack, even with the ability to apply greater vital strike on a greater spring attack. I suppose if you're fighting mobs of enemies you could potentially cut them down in single hits, but not likely by the level you're able to do that.

It is, however, a really neat archetype and I like it a lot! I need to take a closer look at the Samurai class, I've never built one before. Maybe now is the time.

[Isabelle Lee]

Zautos' wrote:

There is a flourish that will give you vital strike and it improves with level and it lets you use Vital strike during spring attack. So I think at 18 level you can make 1 Greater vital strikes against 3 different opponents.

Note that Chrysanthemum's Blooming only grants the first Vital Strike feat itself. You have to select Improved Vital Strike to gain its benefit. In addition, the ability only works with those two, not Greater Vital Strike.

Zautos' wrote:

order of the songbird is great as well and fits with the archetype.

Link

In case it wasn't obvious, the Order of the Songbird was essentially written for the warrior poet. ^_^

[Isabelle Lee]

Syries wrote:

That is a neat archetype It's damage potential is interesting, as it seems to be pushing you toward one big hit. You are apparently getting character lvl and a half on a challenge target starting at level 4 on the first hit. Not sure if that was meant to be written like that, and my inclination is that with the stacking rules, you only get character level in damage on the first hit and half character level on subsequent hits in a round.

Skirmisher's Challenge and Graceful Strike always stack - the latter is meant to make up for the lack of damage provided by Strength, letting the warrior poet focus harder on the Dexterity and Charisma they need for defense and theme without sacrificing too much offense.

Syries wrote:

Early levels I'd want to get bladed brush, but around level 8-10 or so I'd retrain it to benefit from graceful strike.

Probably not the worst optimization decision. Graceful Strike lets the warrior poet function without it - important for PFS, where Bladed Brush is sadly unavailable.

Syries wrote:

Full-attacking is still better than spring attacking, even though this archetype seems to push you towards a hit-and-run skirmish build.

Using a glaive, a level 11 samurai is at 1d10+11/+5/+5 on bonus damage from the graceful strike/skirmisher's challenge ability. No way is a spring attacking build getting better damage on a full attack, even with the ability to apply greater vital strike on a greater spring attack. I suppose if you're fighting mobs of enemies you could potentially cut them down in single hits, but not likely by the level you're able to do that.

I don't believe I could get away with writing an archetype that does as much or more damage on the move as a full-attacking martial. I hope the warrior poet at least can make it a viable option, even if it's not always the optimal DPR method.

(First attack is at +16 damage, of course, as noted previously.)

Syries wrote:

It is, however, a really neat archetype and I like it a lot! I need to take a closer look at the Samurai class, I've never built one before. Maybe now is the time.

I'm glad it's sparking some interest. ^_^

[Zautos']

Thanks for the clarifications. I only read it quickly.

I guested that. It fits well.

I don't think I have ever built an caviler or samurai. But now I will build one and put it on my hopefully play some day pile.

I will probebly dip swashbuckler and brawler.

[Syries]

I was wondering about that for PFS. The additional resources hasn't been updated since March so anything that's been published since then hasn't made its rounds to being table legal. I'm still waiting to make an adaptable shifter (that archetype seriously saved that class for me)

It's unfortunate, really, that skirmish builds aren't all that viable in pathfinder when you compare the damage dealt by a martial full-attacker. Something I've noticed when playtesting PF2 is that skirmish fighting is significantly more viable of an option now, but I digress.

I never meant to give the impression that the archetype is bad, if I did; quite the opposite actually. You don't HAVE to be optimized so much as a full-attacking character, and this archetype is flavorful as all heck, I really do like it. It's nice that Spring Attack is just given to you, so you dont necessarily have to build your entire character around it. But using it every now and then would be fun!

I might have to make one of these when it comes around in the Additional Resources. Maybe make an Ifrit.

[zza ni]

thank you, i just got a great idea with this. (mostly for an annoying rememberable npc). grab trait to use int for bluff.
1 level of warrior poet to take the 'Kitsune’s Mystique' .(also gain weapon finesse which is good the build would be int\dex heavy after all).
8 levels of alchemist. picking 'delayed bomb' as discovery at level 8.
level 1,3,5,7 feats (and ether human level 1 extra or level 9 if other race) combat expertise,dodge,mobility,spring attack (can also do 6 levels of warrior poet but bomb damage get too low) and the last one "Deceptive Exchange"

now in one turn can use spring attack: move to target, feint ,deliver bomb, hit (bomb is part of feint,hit is part of spring attack) move onward and end with his back to an exploding victim - very cinematic ;)

extra points if he is a tiny blue man holding a wrapped box.

[JulianW]

Its a lovely archetype - really looking forward to the chance to play one

[SlimGauge]

I'm going to dip monk and go unarmored with my warrior poet

[pauljathome]

I love both of these archetypes (Warrior Poet and the Order of the Songbird).

Pity that I won't be able to ever play one in PFS (PFS will pretty much end before this makes it into additional resources :-(.)

[Syries]

What makes you say PFS is going to end so soon? Additional resources should be updated relatively soon. PF2 doesn't become official until next august, and even then, we'll have maybe 4 scenarios to play before we run out, compared to 10 years worth of PFS 1st edition. It'll be a good two years before PF2 has enough scenarios that PF1 fazes out.

[pauljathome]

Syries wrote:

What makes you say PFS is going to end so soon? Additional resources should be updated relatively soon. PF2 doesn't become official until next august, and even then, we'll have maybe 4 scenarios to play before we run out, compared to 10 years worth of PFS 1st edition. It'll be a good two years before PF2 has enough scenarios that PF1 fazes out.

I've played nearly all scenarios so, in the best possible case, I'll have something like 15 scenarios by the time this makes it into additional resources. More likely less than 10.

Hardly worth making a new character to play that few scenarios.

[Knight Magenta]

This archetype is so cool. It's good at what it does but does not seem OP on a first read. I wish I was starting a new campaign soon :(

Edit: This is actually just Yasuo the Archetype :) Were you inspired by the League of Legends champion?

[MerlinCross]

This is probably going into the Jade Regent game I want to get around to.

But that's on the shelf.

[Isabelle Lee]

Knight Magenta wrote:

Edit: This is actually just Yasuo the Archetype :) Were you inspired by the League of Legends champion?

I've never played it, and I'm only familiar with a smattering of the most popular characters. I don't know that I really could point to a specific source of inspiration.

I simply tried to infuse the warrior poet with graceful samurai warrior tropes and artistic ideals, combined with mechanics that encourage mobile combat. ^_^

[Nyerkh]

I like the look of both.
Even separately, as the Songbird seems quite good for say, a daring champion. And the warrior poet will allow me go get my crane on in PF, which should be fun.

However, I've been wondering how Chrysanthemum's Blooming would interact with things like Spring-Heeled Reaping, Improved/Greater Spring Attack, all the things that change Spring Attack. Half of those are offered by the archetype after all.

Now, I like it, it's not often martials have decent options for multiple opponents, but I'd rather make sure it does work as I imagine. Not that many ways to getnmore than one Vital Style so far.

[Isabelle Lee]

I'm willing to field questions about interactions when I have a moment to check the thread - while I can't offer official rulings, I can at least try to untangle the rules we have. ^_^

[avr]

Looks like we need a "filter by Isabelle Lee" option on Archives of Nethys. I was looking at this just this morning, and yes it's interesting.

[Cavall]

I had wondered about why it kept light armour when many things in both the order and archtype leaned away from any at all?

[Isabelle Lee]

Cavall wrote:

I had wondered about why it kept light armour when many things in both the order and archtype leaned away from any at all?

Light armor can be helpful at the lowest levels, when you're only getting +1 or +2 AC from Charisma. Plus, if for some reason you want to wear armor at some point, you have the option. ^_^

[Melkiador]

avr wrote:

Looks like we need a "filter by Isabelle Lee" option on Archives of Nethys. I was looking at this just this morning, and yes it's interesting.

She does have a habit of giving us a bunch of really cool archetypes. It'd be interesting to see a full list of the ones she's done.

[Slim Jim]

Since the class caters to single massive attacks, what are some good multiclass, feat, and item suggestions? (Naturally, anything granting crit-threats is the cat's meow.)

[Zautos']

The only thing I don't like with the archetype and it's order is Beautiful Strike.

that RP wise fells strange. They become a friend/ally but it still knows that I tried to kill it.

it's a level 4 spell that only activates 1/day and you get it at level 15 a wizard can cast it at any target it wants with out attacking them at 7 level.

What do other people think about this?

[Zautos']

Slim Jim wrote:

Since the class caters to single massive attacks, what are some good multiclass, feat, and item suggestions? (Naturally, anything granting crit-threats is the cat's meow.)

I suggest 1 level dip in brawler and for feats panther style. So if people attack you when you move you can punch back.

[Slim Jim]

Zautos' wrote:

Slim Jim wrote:

Since the class caters to single massive attacks, what are some good multiclass, feat, and item suggestions? (Naturally, anything granting crit-threats is the cat's meow.)

I suggest 1 level dip in brawler and for feats panther style. So if people attack you when you move you can punch back.

I'm thinking more on the order of "How do I make this x4 naginata reliably explode like an atomic bomb if the be-all of this class is to only take single attacks every round?"

(Brawler doesn't waive prerequisites, by the way, so you're still on the hook for Combat Expertise to qualify for Panther Style ...thought the class is helpful in alleviating the normal Int13 necessity. After that, it'll take a move-action to trigger Martial Flexibility, and then a swift-action to activate the chosen Panther Style feat. Don't get me wrong, Brawler is a nice class, but sometimes you're better off just dipping chained monk Master of Many Style, eating the BAB0, and getting your feat without annoyances as well as +2 to all your saves. It's not like Warrior Poet is going to be worried about his iteratives that often anyway.)

[ShroudedInLight]

I do have to say that going over the book, Warrior Poet is the coolest thing in it hands down.

I just wish we could get a reprint of the Sword Saint archetype :(

[pauljathome]

Melkiador wrote:

avr wrote:

Looks like we need a "filter by Isabelle Lee" option on Archives of Nethys. I was looking at this just this morning, and yes it's interesting.

She does have a habit of giving us a bunch of really cool archetypes. It'd be interesting to see a full list of the ones she's done.

What else has she done? Isabelle, free to answer too :-)

[Melkiador]

I’m pretty sure she did the butterfly blade slayer and the kinetic knight kineticist. Both really cool and interesting archetypes.

I’m sure there are others, but I’m not aware of which.

[Isabelle Lee]

Let's see... it'd be a lot to list everything I've ever written, but I can probably get a list of archetypes together. ^_^

Archetypes:

Rostland bravo (swashbuckler)
Brazen deceiver (bard)
Dashing thief (swashbuckler)
Sister-in-arms (cavalier)
Masked maiden (vigilante)
Armiger (fighter)
Devil binder (summoner)
Blossoming light (cleric)
Kinetic knight (kineticist)
Inerrant voice (oracle)
Butterfly blade (slayer)
Dragonscale loyalist (vigilante)
Silksworn (occultist)
Earthshadow (rogue)
Firebrand (gunslinger)
Flamesinger (bard)
Foundation of faith (cleric)
Green knight (cavalier)
Saurian champion (cavalier)
Azatariel (swashbuckler)
Chronicler of worlds (bard)
Dreamthief (rogue)
Gloomblade (fighter)
Calamity caller (warpriest)
Twilight speaker (skald)
Warrior poet (samurai)

...I think that's everything.

[Melkiador]

Thanks for the list. I think there are some cool feats and weapons in there too.

Basically, she’s the reason martials get nice things.

[Cavall]

Site in arms cavalier is the best duo same class bffs in the game, to me. Both in flavour and layout.

[pauljathome]

Wow, that is quite the list.

You rock! You do a great job of making very flavourful archetypes with mechanics that actually reflect the flavour AND seem (at first blush at least, haven't played them all) reasonably balanced.

I think I want you to officially be put in charge of designing ALL skill feats for PF2!

[zza ni]

i love the gloomblade ;)
the best thing it can be taken with the venom blade (nagaji fighter archtype). callem voomblade and they rock! (going to a fight withou visible weapons)

[Wraith235]

Ive been theorycrafting on this archtype for an AP in the future

Paladin 2
Monk 1 (Im partial to Sohei for the always act in a suprise round)
Swashbuckler 1
Split the rest between Devoted Muse and Warrior poet/ Ward Speaker Samurai

and for PFS I think they will require it to be an elven archetype (just like Spire defender was)

I think Id have to make it an elf with the alternate racial trait for Katana(from the same book) since my GM doesn't allow Aasimars

using the glaive is cool and maybe I could go with it there is just a lot of nuances I'm having issues with particularly around slashing grace as well as the fact that its 4 freaking feats to pull it off
and Ive not really put it to the grinder for building yet

20 point Id probably go 14 Dex, Con, Cha, Wis so that no stats are tanked .... all of this is without racial bonuses
you have good base saves (+12, +9, +10) at 5th level
base potential of +8 to AC from stats alone

you'd likely have to wear light armor until Samurai 2 because of the Samurai level restriction on your cha bonus to AC (monk and Samurai AC Bonuses = 4 at this point)

[pauljathome]

And PFS has decided that its not legal :-(.

Boo. Hiss.

[Zero the Nothing]

Isabelle Lee, thank you so much for coming up with this archetype. I definitely appreciate the work you put into this archetype and I'm glad you were a part of Heroes of the Fringe. This has been one of my favorite things that I've seen from a Paizo product this year. A dex-based Samurai archetype has been needed for a long time. Now people can play their Himura Kenshins, Jins, and other anime fantasies. I'm very sad that the archetype didn't make it to legality. I can understand the general block on Guns and Drow, but this one was a shock. We get the Order of the Songbird, but not the archetype that its made for?! I was really looking forward to playing one at SCARAB or MaceWest. I had the character planned out already. But its ok, I'll try to play the character in my next home game(I don't know when that will be, PFS is pretty much my option for Pathfinder play right now).

With so many people expressing a desire to play this archetype, all I can hope is that the PFS team has taken note and maybe their plan is to make the archetype accessible through a chronicle sheet or boon. I don't particularly like the idea of having to play a specific scenario or be lucky enough to recieve a boon just to play an archetype that is inside a book that I own. Pathfinder 1st Edition is coming to an official end in just a few months and I don't know what to expect of PFS for 1E scenarios, modules, specials, etc.

[Sintog]

First let me say what a fantastic archetype. This thing just oozes flavor. If have two samurai in the party and one is a Songbird they are completely different animals. That's a win as far as I'm concerned. This archetype reminds me of the best Japanese/Asian inspired fantasy I've come across.

I understand we can't get official rulings but I was wondering...

Graceful warrior: Was the clause about not changing weapon properties for any other effect intended to stop you from double weilding katanas?

Poetic Inspiration: Is the Songbird considered an ally within 30ft to benefit from the ability?

Respectfull feedback on mechanics

The challenge mechanic is a bit cumbersome, in that it is modified by both order of the Songbird and warrior poet. The bonuses to AC and Save from Songbird advance at a different rate from the challenge ability itself.

The end result is still fantastic. Just I wish there was a simpler way than looking up three different pages, and calculating two different rates of progression for a single ability.

Vital Strike is a bit confusing, as you have to give up your extra attacks to achieve the extra damage, so while it appears the specific ability trumps the feat description it's another mechanics conversation I would need to have with the GM.

I kind of wish the progression of spring attack and the option for vital strike would have transitioned into spring heeled style feats instead, with Spring Heeled Sprint complimenting the movement bonus (for 120 movement before haste if selected three times!) and the full bonus on both attacks from Spring Heeled Reaping along with the +2 attack from the Spring Heeled Style letting you sink in power attack and/or combat expertise for extra damage and/or extra AC. Not a big deal, as that option is available anyway through normal feats, but the style looks to me a better compliment to the Skirmisher than spring attack tree + vital strike tree.

[Derklord]

Sintog wrote:

Graceful warrior: Was the clause about not changing weapon properties for any other effect intended to stop you from double weilding katanas?

No, it means they aren't made light weapons for other things, most notably TWF penalty and handedness. So glaive and naginata are still two-handed weapons, and dual wielding katanas has the full penalty.

I guess Isabelle wanted to proactive stop idiots from over-applying the "as if they were light weapons" effect.

Sintog wrote:

Poetic Inspiration: Is the Songbird considered an ally within 30ft to benefit from the ability?

Unless you are deaf, yes. "You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible."

Sintog wrote:

Vital Strike is a bit confusing, as you have to give up your extra attacks to achieve the extra damage, so while it appears the specific ability trumps the feat description it's another mechanics conversation I would need to have with the GM.

Normal: You can activate Vital Strike only when using the attack action. With Chrysanthemum’s Blooming: You can activate Vital Strike only when using either the attack action, or the Spring Attack feat.

I don't see the confusing part. Note that Improved and Greater Spring Attack only modify the base feat (unlike for instance Improved and Greater Vital Strike), and thus you can use Vital Strike (and later Improved VS) with those feats if you have Chrysanthemum’s Blooming.

[Sintog]

Derklord wrote:

Sintog wrote:

Graceful warrior: Was the clause about not changing weapon properties for any other effect intended to stop you from double weilding katanas?

No, it means they aren't made light weapons for other things, most notably TWF penalty and handedness. So glaive and naginata are still two-handed weapons, and dual wielding katanas has the full penalty.

I guess Isabelle wanted to proactive stop idiots from over-applying the "as if they were light weapons" effect.

Sintog wrote:

Poetic Inspiration: Is the Songbird considered an ally within 30ft to benefit from the ability?

Unless you are deaf, yes. "You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible."

Sintog wrote:

Vital Strike is a bit confusing, as you have to give up your extra attacks to achieve the extra damage, so while it appears the specific ability trumps the feat description it's another mechanics conversation I would need to have with the GM.

Normal: You can activate Vital Strike only when using the attack action. With Chrysanthemum’s Blooming: You can activate Vital Strike only when using either the attack action, or the Spring Attack feat.

I don't see the confusing part. Note that Improved and Greater Spring Attack only modify the base feat (unlike for instance Improved and Greater Vital Strike), and thus you can use Vital Strike (and later Improved VS) with those feats if you have Chrysanthemum’s Blooming.

If I understand correctly, your interpretation is that with both feat trees you can effect multiple vital strikes as part of an improved/greater spring attack. That's debatable as vital strike specifies, "you may make one attack at your highest base attack bonus." It is thus not crystal clear to me if the "one attack" clause is waived, and if it isn't, how the "at your highest base attack bonus" clause interacts with "The second attack made this way is made at your full base attack bonus – 5." Which trumps the other? It's a mechanics discussion with your GM (or at least would be with my GM).

By full penalties you mean that wielding a katana in your off hand does not qualify for "If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each."

I think I would house rule it like this;

1. Remove from flourish Chrysanthemum’s Blooming: The warrior poet gains Vital Strike as a bonus feat and can apply its benefit when using Spring Attack. If the warrior poet is at least 16th level and has Improved Vital Strike, she can apply that feat’s benefit instead. The warrior poet must be at least 11th level to select this flourish.

2. Remove from flourish Exodus of Jinin: As long as the warrior poet is wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load, her land speed increases by 10 feet. A warrior poet can select this flourish up to three times. 

3. Remove from flourish: gain another flourish at level 9 and level 13

4. Remove Battle Dance (Ex): At 6th level, the warrior poet gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat. At 12th level, she gains Improved Spring Attack as a bonus feat, and at 18th level, she gains Greater Spring Attack as a bonus feat. The warrior poet does not need to meet the prerequisites for these feats.

5. Add Spring Heeled Dance (Ex): At 6th level the warrior poet gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat. At 9th level she gains Spring Heeled style as a bonus feet and can assume this style as a free action whenever she uses her challenge ability as a swift action. At level 12 she gains Spring Heeled Sprint as a bonus feat. At level 13 she gains Spring Heeled Reaping as a bonus feat. At level 18 she gains a bonus combat feat.

[Derklord]

Sintog wrote:

If I understand correctly, your interpretation is that with both feat trees you can effect multiple vital strikes as part of an improved/greater spring attack. That's debatable as vital strike specifies, "you may make one attack at your highest base attack bonus." It is thus not crystal clear to me if the "one attack" clause is waived, and if it isn't, how the "at your highest base attack bonus" clause interacts with "The second attack made this way is made at your full base attack bonus – 5." Which trumps the other? It's a mechanics discussion with your GM (or at least would be with my GM).

Here's the thing: That whole section of the Vital Strike text ("you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage") is not actual rules text, but reminder text. It doesn't make a ruling, because there is no need to - the attack action is already a singular attack at full BAB.

We have stuff like that all over the CRB: The Animal Fury rage power repeats the natural attack rules, but only a too-small part of them, which can lead to truly ridiculous stuff if you take the description literal. The metamagic rules repeat the names of the classes instead of sticking to"spontaneous casters", which means that those from later books are not RAW covered by the rules. Quick Draw says "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).", which sounds like you can't do so without it, but the combat rules says different, and this part of the feat text only applies to throwing weapons not designed to be thrown. The Spider Climb spell grants a +8 racial bonus on climb checks, which is what the climb rules grant for creatures possessing a climb speed, and since racial bonuses stack, RAW you get a +16 bonus from the spell.
And of course there's a ridiculous amount that's "only" redundant, like how Weapon Training says you add the bonus to CMB of maneuvers made with those weapon even though that is already covered in the maneuver rules, how Mobility and Haste say you lose the dodge bonus when denied the dex bonus even though the combat rules already says that, or the sheer stupidity of the consequitive Monk class features Proficiency and AC Bonus both saying you lose the bonus when wearing armor.

And that's not even listing the instances where you actively have to rewrite the text to make it work, most notably for when the CRB talks about "spells", when in reality it means "effects". Polymorph effects like Wildshape being the biggest offender, the CRB literally has no rules if you use it strictly as written without any common sense.

Sintog wrote:

By full penalties you mean that wielding a katana in your off hand does not qualify for "If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each."

Yes.

[Cavall]

What I've done to keep from making classes with multiple archetypes or options and page flipping from being annoying is downs 30 minutes cut and pasting the original class.

I go to the online source, copy it, delete what's changed and paste in the new stuff. And while I'm there, paste in the scaling bonuses too.

The end result is a class layout tailored for me. No more flipping back and forth. You may find this helps you Sintog with your frustrations about 3 pages back and forth, just invest some time and never do it again.

[Sintog]

Derklord wrote:

Sintog wrote:

If I understand correctly, your interpretation is that with both feat trees you can effect multiple vital strikes as part of an improved/greater spring attack. That's debatable as vital strike specifies, "you may make one attack at your highest base attack bonus." It is thus not crystal clear to me if the "one attack" clause is waived, and if it isn't, how the "at your highest base attack bonus" clause interacts with "The second attack made this way is made at your full base attack bonus – 5." Which trumps the other? It's a mechanics discussion with your GM (or at least would be with my GM).

Here's the thing: That whole section of the Vital Strike text ("you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage") is not actual rules text, but reminder text. It doesn't make a ruling, because there is no need to - the attack action is already a singular attack at full BAB.

That's new to me. Can you please provide a linked to RAW or RAI source explaining the difference between "rules text" and "reminder text?" Or is that distinction just something you came up with on your own?

[Melkiador]

Not really following this argument, but this is the oldest version of reminder text.

Quote:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full.

But of course, anyone can unarmed strike with their hands full, because kicking exists. The text is just reminder text.

[Sintog]

Cavall wrote:

What I've done to keep from making classes with multiple archetypes or options and page flipping from being annoying is downs 30 minutes cut and pasting the original class.

I go to the online source, copy it, delete what's changed and paste in the new stuff. And while I'm there, paste in the scaling bonuses too.

The end result is a class layout tailored for me. No more flipping back and forth. You may find this helps you Sintog with your frustrations about 3 pages back and forth, just invest some time and never do it again.

Yes! I'm playing a Gestalt character and found I had a full 5 pages I had to scroll through, so I did exactly this. It took me a bit longer than a half hour though, but part of that is because I did it on my phone.

[Derklord]

Sintog wrote:

Can you please provide a linked to RAW or RAI source explaining the difference between "rules text" and "reminder text?" Or is that distinction just something you came up with on your own?

If you can't see the difference between text that makes or changes rules (i.e. rule text), and text that only repeats the existing general rules (i.e. reminder text), I can't help you.

[Melkiador]

Improved Spring Attack wrote:

Benefit: When you use Spring Attack....

Greater Spring Attack wrote:

Benefit: When you use Spring Attack....

So, anything you can do when using Spring Attack, you should be able to do with Improved and Greater Spring Attack.

[Ryan Freire]

This feels a lot like the argument about that heritor knight ability.

[Cavall]

Which one Ryan?

[Ryan Freire]

Cavall wrote:

Which one Ryan?

Mighty Strike

mighty strike wrote:

At 6th level, a heritor knight gains Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike as bonus feats.

Whenever the heritor knight makes a melee attack as a standard action, she can apply the effects of Improved Vital Strike to that attack. If she has Greater Vital Strike, she can apply that feat’s effects instead.

As written, it allows you to use vital strike with cleave/great cleave/etc

Also the dual slice weapon trick

People just cant wrap their head around applying vital strike to more than one attack.