Magic Weapons: A Proposal

[Leedwashere]

I've been thinking a lot lately about the discussion surrounding the way magic weapons work in 2E, system expectations, and the unchained automatic bonus progression.

At first I loved the idea of magic weapons adding whole dice! It sounds awesome at first, but the concern that others have raised that it really enforces the idea of maxing out your +X weapon to the best it can be, because the system expects you to have so many dice at a given level. In PF1 this meant that so many other enchantments were obsolete. PF2 makes getting and adding other runes a bit more reasonable, but there's still that idea of +X is priority 1 - everything else is a luxury. I think we can do better.

And then I start to think about automatic bonus progression. It was an interesting idea that I never used because I run a lot of published adventures (I dearly love every Paizo adventure path that I've read, run or played in) and, while I'm not averse to changing things to suit my play style or my group composition, going through all of the treasure all of the time was just a bridge too far in the tedium department. But this is a new edition! A solution still has a chance to get in on the ground floor and be part of the system expectations.

And this system already has baked in places where a character just spurts in power level in esoteric ways. Every 5 levels. So what if when you get your ability boosts, you also get an additional damage die? And what if that wasn't a weapon damage die, but a class damage die? Base it on your class HP (what used to be hit dice). So a level 10 wizard with a staff deals 1d4+2d6, while a level 10 cleric of shelyn might deal 3d8. A level 10 fighter with a longbow would deal 1d8+2d10, and that raging barbarian with the greataxe does a whopping 3d12 at the same level.

So now that the dice are accounted for (and in a much more predictable way than item availability, which is a boon for adventure designers), that brings us back to magic weapons. I still think the baseline should be the good ol' magic weapon. But in this new paradigm, all that does is allow the weapon to interact with resistances and weaknesses keyed off magic, and allow it to affect incorporeal creatures. But, now that the damage dice are taken care of, your magic weapon potency budget can go exclusively to runes that do interesting things. You can have that flaming ranseur as soon as you want, because it's not directly hindering your ability to keep up with where the system expects you to be.

And let item quality and proficiency (and possibly some runes like furious or something) be the only things that affect your to-hit rolls. Proficiency is pretty controllable by the system (good for adventure expectations) and quality has a relatively small range (also good for adventure expectations).

I think a change like this would go a long way toward making martial characters feel more personally impactful (rather than the sum of their gear) while also making it easier to tone down the mosters/enemies to more reasonable levels.

[Pramxnim]

This change would have several implications which may be divisive.

Firstly, tying damage dice increase to ability boost levels may look elegant, but you end up with less damage than the current system, which would imply further tinkering with player damage or monster hp. If you kept the progression to the current 4/8/12/16/20 (or even go a bit earlier and do 3/7/11/15/19), I think it’d be better. Damage still goes up to 6 dice at max level as with the current system.

Then, there will certainly be some balancing issues that may or may not need ironing out. Low damage dice options like Daggers, Shortswords or the Monk’s Crane Stance Attack are buffed, while bigger weapon dice options are nerfed. Rogues now deal 1dX + up to 5d8 damage on attacks, while 2-handed Fighters now have little reason to favour the Greatsword, instead sticking to the Falchion as their weapon of choice (it was always the best choice for full attacking before, but now it’s the se facto best choice). Sorcerers don’t really get to participate in melee any more, because while they could wield a big-ass weapon and cast buff spells before, now they only deal xd6 bonus damage dice, which is not enough.

Some may like the above change, as it helps make damage more predictable by class and helps with balancing, while others will react negatively because it feels like your weapon choices don’t matter. Still others will think the change negatively impacts their character build, such as those who enjoy playing a more martial spellcaster.

Finally, we get to the weapons. Weapon choice is now a lot more about the traits and less about damage dice, since higher level damage is offloaded to your class. This means players are free to experiment with niche weapon traits and weird choices like using a Whip as a 1-handed reach weapon without being a Gnome. It could also mean that certain 2-handed weapons become very much worse, like the Heavy Crossbow or Greatsword. They would need some love if this system were to be implemented.

Ultimately, I’m neutral on this proposal, but I can’t imagine the designers implementing it. You are sure to see people complain about how it makes members of the same class feel too uniform, or how your choices don’t matter etc.

The weapon system right now creates some big gaps in damage at higher levels. A d4 Weapon does on average 4-24 less damage than a d12 Weapon through the levels, for example. Considering the highest average damage per hit is only 46 (6d12+7), that’s a massive difference. I think lower damage dice weapons should have ways to bridge the gap somewhat via precision damage, but not enough to overtake a high damage dice weapon. Ideally, I’d like to see a d4 Weapon deal 65-75% the damage of a d12 Weapon, not less than 50%. The added traits the game gives out to small weapons don’t seem enough to offset the damage differential, imo.

That said, I don’t think tying damage dice increases to class is the way to go, even if I don’t hate the idea. The backlash such a rule could create if made official is not worth the potential benefits.

[WhiteMagus2000]

The current magic weapon system is the feature of PF2 I hate the most. At the end of the first dungeon the players get a +1 ghost touch dagger. They instantly had it transferred to a great axe for the barbarian and now she does more than double the damage of anyone else.

Not only does it feel super non-heroic to realize that 3/4 of the damage that a level 20 fighter does is his awesome sword and not him, the responsibility now falls on the GM to make sure that everyone has exactly the weapon they are supposed to have at the levels they are supposed to have it. Previously the difference between a MW great sword and a +1 great sword was trivial, now it's night and day.

My solution is basically the same as your; +1 dice to all weapon attacks, bombs, and cantrips when they get each new attribute bonus. Magic weapons will still give bonuses to hit and have secondary properties (like ghost touch), so players will still want them. It's not an elegant solution, but it seems both noob and munchkin proof.

[Zman0]

Honestly, it isn't a bad suggestion, but it does cause quite a few balance issues.

Firstly, it doesn't replicate the damage scaling threat P2 is currently balanced for. It is balanced for additional damage dice at levels 4/8/12/16/20. If you were going to implement this mechanic, you'd want to do it at those levels instead of 5/10/15/20.

Now, the damage die being determined by the class hit dice is cool, but with the current structure of weapons balance, it causes problems. Under this system the weapon itself generates only a small amount of the total damage so a character would benefit most from choosing a weapon for its special traits. Why wield a Greatsword for 1d12+2d10 at 15th level when you could use a agile finesse dagger for 1d4+2d10. You only miss out on an average of 4 damage and gain agile attacks and finesse, and thrown. Or just punch things with open hands with your gauntlets for 1d4+2d10.

As cool as this idea is, the way weapons are balanced just doesn't support it right now.

I strongly believe that removing the additional dice from magic weapon potency and instead making it automatic at levels 4/8/12/16/20.

[Shain Edge]

Zman0 wrote:

I strongly believe that removing the additional dice from magic weapon potency and instead making it automatic at levels 4/8/12/16/20.

Actually, I can see why he is going for 5/10/15/20 rather then 4/8/12/16/20. It is that is where your character starting equipment per level gives you access to the the Magic Weapons. Maybe have a General feat that grants the bonus one level earlier.

Then you can have 'magic weapons' be specific in their other magical effects, like flaming, or undead disruption, and not have to worry at all about general pluses.

[Zman0]

Shain Edge wrote:

Zman0 wrote:

I strongly believe that removing the additional dice from magic weapon potency and instead making it automatic at levels 4/8/12/16/20.

Actually, I can see why he is going for 5/10/15/20 rather then 4/8/12/16/20. It is that is where your character starting equipment per level gives you access to the the Magic Weapons. Maybe have a General feat that grants the bonus one level earlier.

Then you can have 'magic weapons' be specific in their other magical effects, like flaming, or undead disruption, and not have to worry at all about general pluses.

No, 5/10/15/20 is not where you're able to get magic weapons of potency. When creating a higher level character you can select them at 5/9/13/17. But, during play you are expected to pick up the weapons of that potency through play sometime during levels 4/8/12/16/20.

Under my idea of granting the extra dice automatically at 4/8/12/16/20 you also get to focus on weapon properties or properties or other items etc. Getting the next potency late, or intentionally delaying it to acquire other things is roughly balanced and far less punitive for the opportunity cost of losing out on damage dice. Especially where backup weapons etc are concerned.

If you're going to give out the weapon potency automatically, then you'll need to rethink WBL etc, because weapon cost for the highest potency was a large portion of that calculation.

[SuperSheep]

Potency is also more of an issue for Martial classes. My wizard didn't pick up a +1 weapon and instead opted for a staff of fire.

One issue with potency becoming automatic is that it breaks the economy between martial and caster classes. It's not insurmountable, but it would be a lot of additional balancing work.

[Shain Edge]

SuperSheep wrote:

Potency is also more of an issue for Martial classes. My wizard didn't pick up a +1 weapon and instead opted for a staff of fire.

One issue with potency becoming automatic is that it breaks the economy between martial and caster classes. It's not insurmountable, but it would be a lot of additional balancing work.

I don't see auto-potency breaking caster martial classes. Your martial classes get access to higher dice weapons, and have much greater use out of them, due to their feats. Not only that, but martial classes are optimized for hitting with those weapons.

[Leedwashere]

Really, the point of the proposal could be best summarized as follows: choices which the game assumes you make are not real choices.

If you have a choice between keeping up with the game or doing something else, then either you're choosing to remain on the treadmill or to get off an have the game "go on without you" as an effective contributor. Whether that remains fun for you or your group is a matter of personal taste, but I suspect it becomes less fun as fewer people choose to get off the treadmill.

I arbitrarily picked those levels not because of any math reason, but because those levels are an example of this sort of thing done well. At those levels, the game expects you to become better in a spurt - and therefore makes you become better in a spurt. it doesn't make you choose those ability boosts over a class feature, or skill increase, or whatever else.

If the math works out better at different levels, or with different dice, all I can really offer is a shrug. I'm not invested enough in this one to go through the math myself. I just want the choices when it comes to magic weapons to be real and not illusory.

[SuperSheep]

The issue with auto-scaling is that its a huge boon for hybrid classes. Now my Bard doesn't have to pick between a Staff of Enchantment and a +X weapon. Or at least the choice is easier now.

Pure martial and pure caster classes tend to be front-loaded. I've noticed that a lot of the design space for splat books is finding different ways to mix martial and caster classes, which would care very much about things being auto-scaling.

[Leedwashere]

SuperSheep wrote:

The issue with auto-scaling is that its a huge boon for hybrid classes. Now my Bard doesn't have to pick between a Staff of Enchantment and a +X weapon. Or at least the choice is easier now.

Pure martial and pure caster classes tend to be front-loaded. I've noticed that a lot of the design space for splat books is finding different ways to mix martial and caster classes, which would care very much about things being auto-scaling.

Well, if the choices were actually real, you'd be choosing between a staff of enchantment and (spit-balling) a vicious or corrosive weapon or something. And I think it would be a more meaningful choice, because you're not immediately falling behind if you choose one or the other. As it is, the game is basically popping up a text box every so often that asks: "would you like to continue to be effective with weapons? Yes/No/Ask Me Later"

Would this require some more thought being applied to other areas of the game? Almost certainly. Do I think meaningful choices are worth that effort? I do. Am I willing to think it through myself? Nah. I chose the hill I'm willing to die on, and it's healing items :P

[SuperSheep]

My point was that just because something was not a meaningful choice for some doesn't mean it isn't a meaningful choice for anyone.

In the Bard's case deciding between the Staff and the Weapon or Armor is important. Even choosing between the Weapon or Armor first is meaningful and sometimes prioritization is where the choice is.

If I'm a Paladin, I'm probably going to prioritize the +1 armor over the +1 weapon and vice versa for the Fighter.

I'll get them both eventually, but leaning into my strengths is a strategy as-is leaning into my weaknesses.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be better, but there is a choice there, it's just when instead of if.