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I like this idea. I'm still a bit more keen on some sort of limited per day pool of healing, like 4e/5e/SF have done in various manners, as I think it does some things that I prefer over this, but clearly something's got to be done about healing, and I think this is a good way of going about it, especially given that I think it has a wide appeal, as I think it solves the problems that both proponents and opponents of Wands of CLW seem to have.
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In my opinion, this is a VERY good idea, and I think that the body of it has so much potential, not only in healing, but other types of spells...
I, for one, am not really worried about healing per day or RP, but still, I find this idea flavorful and interesting!
It's elegant, it uses the actual mechanics the Playtest already has, and most important, it forces players making choices, which for me is the most important part of the system.
Should the group continue going without stopping, stop to heal for 1-2 hours or sleep for the day? And all of them create so many options and different possibilities, but at the same time it's not always the best choice (even more so if you think about time restraints)
I hope Paizo see this idea and take some time thinking about it!
This ritual is basically short rest in disguise, sound good but not a good idea.
Better add something like medicine/surgery skill as a better and mundane healing.
What's wrong with it? I mean, I get that you might not like it, but is there a legitimate reason?This ritual is basically short rest in disguise, sound good but not a good idea.
Better add something like medicine/surgery skill as a better and mundane healing.
What about "short rest in disguise" do not you understand?
"Cost - Uncommon Herbs worth a total of (whatever is balanced) x spell level
Secondary Casters - 1, Nature or Medicine "
In practice, this is a normal use of medicaments and bandages and it is called ritual for some reason, as if we did not have enough magical healing methods.
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What about "short rest in disguise" do not you understand?
What's wrong with short rests? Again, you've failed to give details as to why that would be a poor design decision. PF1 had short rests. They were called "Everyone sit still for 5 minutes while I jab you with my wand."
What's wrong with short rests? Again, you've failed to give details as to why that would be a poor design decision.
What about "short rest in disguise" do not you understand?
I never said there were any problems with the short rest. Just it makes no sense to do a ritual with the same purpose.
Again, what is there to understand?
PF1 had short rests. They were called "Everyone sit still for 5 minutes while I jab you with my wand."
This is all another story. If you want a replacement for the wand you do not create one for the short rest.
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Disagree, do not want.
I don't want easy free healing in PF2.
I like the idea of player characters not healing up to full after every fight. I like player character healers to be more than an unnecessary convenience. I like PF2's healing situation as-is.
I do not like the idea of a 5e-style short rest.
Players do not like being reckless with characters they've invested time into, often emotions too, sometimes money for books/miniatures.
So, your players will heal up after every fight. That might be using the cleric's spell slots. If the gold/resonance system lets them, that might be with wands/potions. If Stamina/rituals fill its place, it might be with that. If not, maybe they get 2-3 hireling clerics to top them up. Don't allow that? Maybe a splat book two months after PF2's release has a really good medicine skill feat that players almost auto-take to top up. None of those work? Maybe they retreat to rest every encounter or two, and you have to keep figuring out how the plot supports that.
Players, simply, are going to find a way to be full or near-full HP for challenging encounters. Stop trying to fight against that and mutiliating PF2 in pursuit of fighting it. Work with it, make systems that let it be smooth and not thematically silly (CLW poking got towards thematically silly).
I support rituals. Or stamina. Or both. Or short rests. Or healing surges. Or potions being really effective. Or medicine skill being improved to handle most out of combat healing. Or anything that solves this problem. At the moment, it's in a terrible spot.
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Because healers should have competent in-combat healing, and getting people back up, removing status conditions, etc, are good, and also I expect most healers to double as buffers anyway? If not damage dealers or another role.
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I've run, as it turns out, about 32 as well (4 per week for 8ish weeks). I've yet to have a party *not* heal to near-full after every encounter. Massive table variance.
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And it also will make Healer characters a hindrance to a team. If you don't actually need a healer, then why take a healer when you can get more damage/buffing?
Healer is one of my favorite roles (tied with Rogue). I introduced Wand of CLW spam to my group as the Healer. That didn't make my role irrelevant - it let me focus my character resources on in combat healing.
In combat healing spells are not balanced for out of combat use. Blowing my spell slots on out of combat healing means that I no longer have the ability to cast Heal (Pathfinder First Edition version) or Breath of Life in combat. I don't think this renders Healers useless...rather it lets them focus on useful healing in combat rather than doing what parties without healers rely on items for.
Full healing is hard to balance though.
That's true. It's hard to plan out encounters without knowing if attrition is in plan or not. However, I'd counter that rituals give the GM some tools to use that they don't have with wands of CLW/returning to homebase.
o-- Rarity: Rituals are uncommon by default. Make them rare and it's entirely the GM's call whether or not the group has access at all.o-- Disruptable: This process takes an hour. If you don't want the group to stop in the middle of the dungeon have some monsters interrupt them.
o-- Environment: The environment can have an impact on skills. Trying to conduct a ritual in the abyss? Major negative circumstance bonuses.
o-- Critical Failure: I love the idea of critical failures doing interesting things doing a ritual.
If it is cheap no one would need to sleep anymore (for HP. You can still force it with fatigue).
Refusing to sleep still brings on fatigue (as you noted), won't restore spell points, and won't restore spells. I'm sure there are other downsides as well.
If it is too expensive players Will think it is harmfull for their Items Build and probably dislike it.
There are other control factors than just material cost - rarity, disruption, and skills.
Because healers should have competent in-combat healing, and getting people back up, removing status conditions, etc, are good, and also I expect most healers to double as buffers anyway? If not damage dealers or another role.
Exactly. Healing the party up between battles is, generally - there are some exceptions, not what I enjoy about playing a healer. What I enjoy about playing a healer is approaching combat from a very different angle. Instead of playing the damage game against the GM, I try to anticipate the enemy's tactics by raising the right buff on the right target and perform miracles on the battlefield (breath of life is the best example).
I guess that's seen as a problem, but everyone drawing straws to see who has to play a role that everyone at the table hates playing is a bigger problem.
Adding to that: As someone who likes playing a Healer, reliable out of combat healing doesn't prevent my ability to play and enjoy that role. What does prevent that is that most healing spells are insufficient and, frankly, boring. Only a few - like Heal (in Pathfinder First Edition) or Breath of Life - pass the threshold to being dynamic, fun, and powerful.
On that topic, here's my reply in the Does anyone think that Healers should be obligatory in parties? thread.
Obligatory? No. Really useful? Yes.
Dedicated healers are a staple of the genre and some people (myself included) actually do enjoy playing them. But they shouldn't be obligatory any more than a party needs an arcane caster or a rogue. Beneficial but not required.
Based on my experience so far, dedicated healing feels obligatory but not really useful.
No one should feel forced to play a healer just because the group needs one. But if someone wants to play a healer they should be useful - more than just a magical bandaid. I'd love to see more healing spells cast as reactions but that's another topic.
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I truly like this idea, as well as making "Mundane" healing better.
As I said elsewhere:
I'd like to see non-magical healing made a bit more robust. Currently, Battle Medic only works 1/day/character. Why? What's the in-world logic? Why not 1/encounter. Why shouldn't you be able to treat new injuries? And after any combat, how about regaining some, 1 hp/level plus con mod, representing catching your breath and reducing the lactic acid buildup in your muscles.
I'd like to see non-magical healing made a bit more robust. Currently, Battle Medic only works 1/day/character. Why? What's the in-world logic? Why not 1/encounter. Why shouldn't you be able to treat new injuries?
Battle Medic is a strange ability as it stands. It doesn't require tools and it provides significant healing but only once a day even on a failure. It's a separate topic but Medicine could use some tightening up.
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I'd like to see non-magical healing made a bit more robust. Currently, Battle Medic only works 1/day/character. Why? What's the in-world logic? Why not 1/encounter. Why shouldn't you be able to treat new injuries?Battle Medic is a strange ability as it stands. It doesn't require tools and it provides significant healing but only once a day even on a failure. It's a separate topic but Medicine could use some tightening up.
I'm fairly sure(AFBATM) all medicine checks require a healing kit.
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I'm fairly sure(AFBATM) all medicine checks require a healing kit.
The Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, and Treat Poison actions all explicitly list healer's tools as a requirement. Battlefield Medic does not.
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Disagree, do not want.
I don't want easy free healing in PF2.
I like the idea of player characters not healing up to full after every fight. I like player character healers to be more than an unnecessary convenience. I like PF2's healing situation as-is.
I do not like the idea of a 5e-style short rest.
At no point in time did anyone suggest easy, free healing to my knowledge. All the healing stated in this thread has been based on existing characer/player skill choices, with some sort of cost/healing ratio that the balance team can figure out. Characters don't need to heal up to full after every fight, but a way to keep the party playing the game that is flavorful can be a good way to keep the narrative flowing when the party is running low on a specific resource.
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This is my first time posting here, just to endorse this idea. This needs to reach dev ears.
At no point in time did anyone suggest easy, free healing to my knowledge.
Then I will advocate for free, easy healing:
"A character has a Health Reserve equal to their maximum hit points. Each day you can, by resting, regain a number of hit points up to your Health Reserve, at a rate of (character level) HP per minute."
Simple to run, no class or equipment requirement, no separate Stamina system, no complicated rituals filling up pages, no rolling a bunch of dice after every battle, magical healing remains useful, and the potential for HP attrition still exists if you fight enough battles. It allows for abilities that boost your total Health Reserve, or draw from your Health Reserve in battle, but does not require them.
If it were an 8-hour ritual, it would be good even if it heal full hit points, in practice a complete restorative Long Rest, but an hour is likely to be an easy method.
Furthermore, why should not the ritual cost a resonance point like a wand or potion? Since mechanically the resonances have been created to block this type of easy care.
Furthermore, why should not the ritual cost a resonance point like a wand or potion? Since mechanically the resonances have been created to block this type of easy care.
If it's an item based ritual - like the cauldron example I gave earlier - then sure? I guess that would work. But I don't see why a spell should cost resonance otherwise? Rituals already have control mechanics built in.
This is my first time posting here, just to endorse this idea. This needs to reach dev ears.
Thank you for making your first post here! I saw someone (not me) bring it up on the developer's twitch stream on Friday but it was one of the questions they missed. I'm thinking of creating a twitch account so that I can ask myself.
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This is my first time posting here, just to endorse this idea. This needs to reach dev ears.Thank you for making your first post here! I saw someone (not me) bring it up on the developer's twitch stream on Friday but it was one of the questions they missed. I'm thinking of creating a twitch account so that I can ask myself.
Neat that people try. It's a perfect lore friendly idea with a lot of options for good story telling without forcing people to go back each 15 minutes. Even in a party with a cleric it adds the element of, do we want to keep the slots for in combat, can we spare the time and all kind of neat things.
Let alone the potential risk of the ritual failing and all the neat ideas that can be added there.
I would use my account to do it but I am not sure I can with the hours delay between USA and Europe.
Twitch is definitely not time zone or schedule friendly. I'm usually in games on Friday nights so I often miss it. I wish that they'd take questions beforehand rather than relying on the chat but I suppose that would have downsizes as well.
In the stream he just said "MoAr hEaLiNg SpElL" so I am a bit worried about them not even looking at the tons of alternative that people post here since week.
I had the same impression. They're so data focused at the moment that suggestions for new mechanics may not catch their attention.
Let alone the potential risk of the ritual failing and all the neat ideas that can be added there.
This is probably my favorite aspect. I love interesting failure conditions.
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I like the idea of classes enhancing core concepts rather than having them specific to them. In this case, the Cleric might start with the ritual already known and get a bonus to it.
Perhaps the cleric could double the healing from the ritual, or it could roll twice on its roll.
I don't want to see healers as a required role, and I don't want to see healers reduced to meaningless.
Saying that the cleric is the king or queen of healing rituals kind of allows for having a niche without making them required. If the cleric truly out-heals all other healers, then that becomes the baseline for setting difficulty and becomes a de facto requirement.
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Love the idea in general. I'd like to see a one hour ritual with medicine as it's primary skill, with nature, religion, or alchemy as a secondary. Costs a little bit of rare herbs (maybe gold = to highest effected character level). Success heals 50% HP, failure heals 25%, crit success heals 75%, and crit fail heals 0.
Honestly, there are probably dozens of variations that would work, but this would fix both the cure wand problem and the mandatory heal bot problem. And the time and gold cost would be enough to discourage abuse.
I like the idea of classes enhancing core concepts rather than having them specific to them. In this case, the Cleric might start with the ritual already known and get a bonus to it.
I'd be fine with that. I'd like the idea of varying effect. So, perhaps, the Primal version is cheaper on materials and cures disease as well but heals less.... While the Divine version just heals a lot more. Breaking it down further to class based effects works. Personally, Life Oracle was my favorite healing class in Pathfinder First Edition but Clerics can wear the crown until they show up.
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Honestly, there are probably dozens of variations that would work.
Designer could have a lot of fun creating a voddo version, a necromancy version, a time reversal version, etc.
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The thing that I like about this idea is that a player isn’t stuck with being a heal bot. It would be nice to have a cleric free party for a change.
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I'm fairly sure(AFBATM) all medicine checks require a healing kit.The Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, and Treat Poison actions all explicitly list healer's tools as a requirement. Battlefield Medic does not.
Huh! Well look at that!
And hey, the Quick Repair feat apparently alleviates the need for a repair kit!| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to add my voice on the side of the majority here, in favor of this idea.
More generally, I'd like to see:
- More diverse methods of healing, not so efficient that they would render a dedicated healer moot, but efficient enough that a dedicated healer isn't must-have (which I think it is today, unless groups are prepared to rest for several days).
- A wider range of rituals for multiple purposes, including low level ones.
I've run 32 separate playtests.
That's over 100 individual players.
Exactly 1 group healed up to max after every encounter.
This isn't black and white, like everyone should heal after every encounter, or no one should. It depends on the flow of the adventure. When the group is at 10% hit points total, then not healing is near-suicidal. When the groups knows the challenge ahead is huge, then not healing is unwise. On the other hand, when time pressure is there, the risk tolerance should be higher. The variety of situations and play styles advocates for more diverse healing methods, all of them with appropriate costs, so everything remains balanced.
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I'd like to add my voice on the side of the majority here, in favor of this idea.
More generally, I'd like to see:
- More diverse methods of healing, not so efficient that they would render a dedicated healer moot, but efficient enough that a dedicated healer isn't must-have (which I think it is today, unless groups are prepared to rest for several days).
But that's the thing. Diverse methods of healing don't negate the role of healer, any more than blaster mages negate the role of damage dealer. They just mean there are multiple ways to be a healer.
As the Once and Future Kai put it earlier in the thread,
Healing rituals would make it so even if using your spell slots on healing spells is the most effective way to heal during battle, you can heal people in other ways- and even if you can't even cast spells- out of battle.Healer is one of my favorite roles (tied with Rogue). I introduced Wand of CLW spam to my group as the Healer. That didn't make my role irrelevant - it let me focus my character resources on in combat healing.
In combat healing spells are not balanced for out of combat use. Blowing my spell slots on out of combat healing means that I no longer have the ability to cast Heal (Pathfinder First Edition version) or Breath of Life in combat. I don't think this renders Healers useless...rather it lets them focus on useful healing in combat rather than doing what parties without healers rely on items for.
I see your point. Let me be more precise, then:
- A healing ritual should not be so efficient that it would render a dedicated healer moot, that is, it should not be so easily available to everyone and so powerful that there's no niche for the dedicated healer anymore.- It should be efficient enough that a dedicated healer isn't must-have in a group, that is, any character should be able to dedicate some resources to make this ritual, not the best, but a viable solution to the group's healing needs.
- And of course, it should also be a valuable part of the healer's toolkit, out of combat situations.
Well... The sad news is that it sounds like Update 1.3 will implement a different mechanic than healing rituals. The good news is that Update 1.3 will have reliable out of combat healing accessible to any class that invests in the Medicine skill! Even better...
I don't think it'd be that hard to add some 1 hour rituals. It'd mix well with the other 1 hour activities currently in the game (identifying items, repairing dents). Imagine Sorcerer is identifying a magic item, the fighter is repairing a dent in his shield and the Rogue is using his esoteric knowledge to create a healing circle to heal his party, each taking 1 hour. That seems to work out nicely.
This scene described by Dire Ursus is eerily similar to what Jason described on the Twitch stream.
Treat Wounds will take 10 minutes, as will Repair and Identify, and will heal user's lvl * target's con mod. I think this will really help eliminate the 15 minute adventuring day and I'm excited to see how it balances out during the playtest.