First, I'm hoping someone at Paizo reads through this, because the Playtest Rules are confusing in places. I'm not sure if it assumes knowledge or what, or if there is one line hidden away somewhere, but I've been almost pulling my hair out trying to figure this out.
I've been reading and rereading the rules on armor and saving throws and am only proving to confuse myself increasingly as I cannot verify how these two systems work.
From what I understand with Skills, your proficiency modifier includes your level, along with the level of mastery (Trained, Expert, Mastery, and Legendary) giving between +0 to +3 in addition. Thus a 20th level character with a Legendary skill gets a +13 to their roll before adding in ability modifiers and other modifiers. Mind you, I do not find the "add your character level to the skill check" in the list of things you add in calculating your roll, but it is mentioned elsewhere.
Is this how Saving throws also work? Or are you limited to only your ability modifier and level of mastery? Because this is what is implied under the list of modifiers added to saving throws. And it does mean that people won't be able to make saving throws against high-level monsters.
Likewise with armor class - is the maximum armor class for a Dex-10 character 28 for +5 plate mail and a +5 heavy shield? Because this is what the write-up implies. There is nothing that states you add in your level to the roll - and I kind of recall something about your level of mastery not even benefiting armor so even if you're Legendary in Plate Mail according to what is stated, their armor class remains the same low level that is going to be critted by high-level monsters rolling 2 to hit.
Things would have gone a lot smoother if there were actual examples for characters and leveling up, rather than just for the initial stats. Because what might be obvious to the game designers may be hidden with one line in one page that is assumed to be known... and players may have no idea, much like myself.
Proficiency modifier always includes level.
There are no exceptions.
As an aside, you can't make a +5 shield.
Is armor class a proficiency though?
Is an attack roll a proficiency?
Would a saving throw be a proficiency?
Where does it state they are?
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Is armor class a proficiency though?
Is an attack roll a proficiency?
Would a saving throw be a proficiency?
Where does it state they are?
Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, page 17
Saving ThrowsFrom time to time, your character may need to determine
whether she can avoid or shake off an effect or spell. When
this happens, the GM will ask you to attempt a Fortitude,
Reflex, or Will saving throw, depending on the situation. For
each kind of saving throw, add your character’s Fortitude,
Reflex, or Will proficiency modifier (as appropriate) plus
the ability modifier associated with that kind of saving
throw, plus add any modifiers, bonuses, or penalties from
abilities, feats, or items that always apply, then record this
number on the line for that saving throw. For Fortitude
saving throws, use your character’s Constitution modifier.
For Reflex saving throws, use your character’s Dexterity
modifier. For Will saving throws, use your character’s
Wisdom modifier.
Armor Class has four proficiencies: unarmered defense proficiency, light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, and heavy armor proficiency. The AC uses the proficiency for the armor the character is wearing. Shields have proficiency, too, and their proficiency sometimes overrides the armor proficiency.
Attack rolls use the character's proficiency with the weapon the character is attacking with, or unarmed proficiency if attacking unarmed. Spellcasters also have proficiency for attacking with spells. For example, the bard class says, in the sidebar on page 63, "Trained in occult spell rolls and DCs and in attack rolls for occult spells."
Saving Throws have proficiencies, as described in that same sidebar. Perception is no longer a skill yet it has a proficiency, also described in that sidebar.
Is there anything that out-and-out states Armor Class proficiency for increasing Armor Class for each level in the Rulebook? Likewise, is there anything that specifically spells that out for Attack Rolls?
I ask because of this line:
Result of a roll = number on the die + ability modifier +
proficiency modifier + circumstance bonus +
conditional bonus + item bonus + circumstance penalty +
conditional penalty + item penalty + untyped penalties
However, proficiency is +1 for Expert, +2 for Mastery, and +3 for Legendary. And from what I understand, for armor class it doesn't even factor into it so someone with a Dex of 10 and Legendary in Heavy Armor isn't granted a higher AC than someone only Trained but with that Dex of 10.
(BTW, Paizo, by having this exception you create ambiguity in the skill levels - is there other circumstances where being Expert or higher that you don't get the bonus than just Armor Class? I end up second-guessing mastery and looking hard for those exceptions because of this one difference with AC.)
This is what I'm looking for: specifics. I've played games in the past and assumed things because of what I previously knew (what with DND 3.0, DND 3.5, and Pathfinder each being different but similar enough you might "assume" and be wrong).
However, proficiency is +1 for Expert, +2 for Mastery, and +3 for Legendary.
You missed a big component of proficiency. It is level-2 to Untrained, level for Trained, level+1 for Expert, level+2 for Master, and level+3 for Legendary. See the proficiency rank table on page 291. In the long run, level is more important than everything else.
And from what I understand, for armor class it doesn't even factor into it so someone with a Dex of 10 and Legendary in Heavy Armor isn't granted a higher AC than someone only Trained but with that Dex of 10.
Were both cases supposed to have the same Dexterity?
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However, proficiency is +1 for Expert, +2 for Mastery, and +3 for Legendary. And from what I understand, for armor class it doesn't even factor into it so someone with a Dex of 10 and Legendary in Heavy Armor isn't granted a higher AC than someone only Trained but with that Dex of 10.
There are no exceptions in where proficiency is used. It always includes level, and always includes UTEML mod. As per the glossary:
Proficiency Your proficiency measures your training in the use of
a weapon, armor, skill, saving throw, or some other check or
score. There are five ranks of proficiency: untrained, trained,
expert, master, and legendary. Your proficiency modifier is
equal to your level plus a value depending on your proficiency
rank (–2 for untrained, 0 for trained, 1 for expert, 2 for master,
or 3 for legendary). You’re considered untrained unless an
ability gives you better proficiency. Learn more on page 290.
Okay. Thank you for pointing out the specific rule there.
This is still confusing enough that I needed to chat with other people here to hammer it out, so Paizo might consider rewording things for dense people like myself. ;) But this clarifies things. :)