Prepping for A.A.S.H*, or “how making this paladin is costing me sanity points”

[The Blue Fairy]

*A.A.S.H. = Affair at Sombrefell Hall

Also:
R.A.W. = Rules as Written
Ability Score Abbreviations: STR, DEX, WIS, et cetera…

For A.A.S.H. in the 2e Pathfinder playtest, players are required to create a seventh level group of all healers - two of which must be clerics who channel positive energy. I already have thoughts and opinions on paladins (I hate the ultra-restrictive Lawful Good alignment prerequisite but I love the idea of religious warriors and templars), so I called dibs on the paladin in our group with the idea that I’d be able to give more concrete feedback on the design elements I care about if I’d actually playtested the class in question.

So I sat down to start making my paladin.

It’s been two days.

I am so far down the proverbial rabbit hole that El-ahrairah is farting pixie dust.

First, I need to pick my ancestry!

Let’s get this out of the way: I think, per the 2e playtest rules, humans (and half-humans, at the cost of one feat) will make the strongest paladins out of the gate. Arguably they make the best everything, but the fact that they take no penalties and can freely choose two ability bonuses automatically gives them a huge advantage over every other ancestry especially with paladins. A paladin’s main stat is STR. Humans are the only race that can, if they want, have an ancestry bonus to STR without leaving a negative modifier elsewhere as they progress with their stat build. No other ancestry is freely given a bonus to STR. Humans have the best ancestry feats to pick from between General Training and Natural Ambition alone. Their only real weakness is their lack of any kind of Low-Light or Darkvision. Overall they make an extremely strong choice for a paladin with virtually no drawbacks.

I just, personally, hate playing humans. I am a human in real life. Gross. That’s not what I’m sitting down to a tabletop fantasy RPG for. So I looked at my other options.

Dwarves (+Con/Wis; -Cha): The bonus to CON is appealing, but WIS isn’t very important for paladins anymore. Taking the hit in CHA, however, is harsh since it’s a paladin’s explicit secondary (and “spellcasting”) stat. Darkvision is a plus, but the Unburdened feature of dwarven ancestry is pretty meh considering how slow dwarves are to begin with - it’s less of a perk and more of a janky workaround to make their exceptional (*cough*unnecessary*cough*) slowness somehow theoretically still viable in armor and... that’s it. Mechanically speaking, when building a paladin in the 2e playtest, I found dwarves a not terrible but not great choice for a paladin. Which was super weird considering how iconic dwarven paladins are in most classic fantasy.

Elves (+Dex/Int; -Con): Neither DEX nor INT are particularly critical for paladins. Since paladins are first and foremost a frontline melee class, the penalty to CON is off-putting. Low-Light vision is better than nothing I suppose and a couple of the feats could be helpful, but nothing about elves really seems to redeem the drawbacks they bring to the class.

Gnomes (+Con/Cha; -Str): Bonuses to CON and CHA are really attractive, but taking a penalty in your primary stat for a paladin is not. Even so I think it would be easier to make a strong gnomish paladin with fewer disadvantages to compensate for than, say, a halfling or an elf. Low-Light vision is okay, and I find their feat selection better than others (your mileage may vary). The lack of any kind of major size penalty solidifies gnomes, I think, as a sub-optimal but still very viable choice for a paladin in Pathfinder 2e R.A.W.

Halflings (+Dex/Wis; -Str): Much the same as what I said above for gnomes, but with the added disadvantage of DEX and WIS being much less enticing bonuses for a paladin. No Low-Light vision. No Darkvision. In my opinion, halflings probably give you the worst starting point for a paladin and a lot more to overcome than other ancestries.

Goblins (+Dex/Cha; -Wis): And here we are. Following humans, I think goblins make your strongest mechanical choice for a paladin in the R.A.W.

And that was a strange realization to come to. Goblins, unlike other small races like gnomes and halflings, don’t take an innate penalty to STR which is kind of a big deal if you’re trying even half-heartedly to optimize a paladin. Goblins get a bonus in a paladin’s secondary/casting stat with CHA which is quite attractive. The bonus to DEX is kind of meh on the surface but the plain fact of the matter is that literally every build for every character I can think of in Pathfinder 2e can get full mileage out of a simple +1 to DEX. Even full-plate heavy armor allows you to apply a +1 from DEX to your AC. So that mandatory ancestry bonus to DEX that goblins get is basically a free +1 to AC, even for heavy armor wearers like fighters and paladins and even if they never look at their DEX again. The negative modifier to WIS feels like it should be a bigger deal than it really is. Paladins get a lot of juice via their class features/feats to help bolster their will saves (really, all their saves) if they want it. Beyond that, WIS only really seems to matter for Religion skill checks, or Medicine skill checks if you decide take the Hospice Knight paladin class feat. Goblins get Darkvision. Goblin ancestry feats are a mixed bag and, in my opinion, overall weak and situational. But I think that’s true of most of the non-human races in 2e. As noted above, there are no size penalties anymore.

I think the primary “disadvantage” you need to overcome on a goblin paladin is simply the RP. As with most unusual race/class combinations, that dilemma is almost always solved by a backstory along the lines of, “But I’m the weird one for {reasons}.”

Having looked at my choices and come to the conclusion that empirically my best options are either human ancestry or goblin ancestry, I had a small existential crisis before deciding, with great hesitation, on a goblin paladin (let’s call him Scabby). And I guess I’ll be the weird one for {reasons}. We’ll get to that. Please stand by.

Choosing my race has cost me 1 pt. of Sanity.

Spoiler tag for boring RP backstory nonsense explaining why Scabby became a paladin of Sarenrae and why I tried to build around using a Halfling Sling Staff:

I play tabletop RPGs primarily for the interactive storytelling. Having picked something as against-the-grain as a goblin paladin I needed at least the shell of a story to hold this concept together for me. What I settled on was that when Scabby was a younger goblin he had been part of a goblin raid/ambush/whatever on a small halfling community. Fires broke out (like they sometimes do around psychotic goblin raiders), and Scabby was unluckily caught in the flames, terribly burned, and left for dead by his compatriots who were eventually driven off (having failed to cause any real harm to anyone but themselves). Rather than letting him die, the halfling acolytes at the local shrine to Sarenrae tended his wounds, physical and otherwise, and brought him back from the brink of death. Halflings in Pathfinder 1st ed. are noted as common worshippers of Sarenrae. Scabby still has horrible cosmetic burns over most of his body (justifying taking the Flame Heart goblin heritage feat) but with the aid of magical healing and a long convalescence he returned to full health a new goblin with a greater purpose and appreciation for goodness and mercy. He developed close ties with the halflings in that village, and views it as home. Sarenrae is the patron goddess of fire, healing, and redemption and in this strange ugly little champion she found a paladin who carried all three. Sir Scabby embodies what Sarenrae strives most for: an evildoer who has had a willing change of heart and seeks to share their enlightenment with others on their path to redemption.

His backstory covers why he’s so different from other goblins (trauma and a radical life changing event) and why Sarenrae might choose such an unlikely champion.

Yay! I’ve got a story to work with. What can I do with this?

The Adopted Ancestry feat is an interesting roleplay choice right off the bat given what I’ve written about Sir Scabby’s close ties with halflings. After looking at the halfling ancestry feats (particularly Weapon Familiarity(Halfling)), I skipped over to the equipment section to look at the weapons sporting the “halfling” trait. I was extremely happy to see the Halfling Sling Staff on weapon list. It has been a favorite fantasy-themed weapon of mine since I fell in love with the original Dragonlance novels twenty-something years ago. This was the moment when my character seemed to crystallize: I will be a heal-focused, goblin paladin of Sarenrae wielding my allied weapon - the Sling Staff my halfling friends taught me to use! Yes!

I got about three quarters of the way through building this - admittedly, very weird - paladin before a question arose in my gaming group that brought my character creation to a dead stop. I don’t have a concrete answer. Neither does my GM. Neither does anyone else in my group.

How does a Halfling Sling Staff work?

A Halfling Sling Staff is listed as an Uncommon Martial Ranged Weapon of the Sling weapon group. It does a listed 1d10 damage with a range of 80ft, (x1) reload, (x1) bulk, and requiring (x2) hands to wield. It is a halfling ancestral weapon and it is Propulsive, allowing you to add ½ your STR modifier to ranged damage rolls.

What I (and members of my group) see as valid interpretations of the RAW:
1.) The Halfling Sling Staff is exclusively a ranged weapon, as it is listed under “ranged weapons” and does not explicitly say anywhere that it can be used in melee. This is supported by the Sling Staff belonging to the Sling weapon group. I don’t agree with this read (for reasons I will cover below) but it is a valid interpretation of the text presented.
2.) The Halfling Sling Staff is both a sling and a staff. It says so right in the name. If I, as a GM, introduced a weapon into my homebrew campaign called a “Sword Bow”, I think most people would assume and expect this weapon to somehow function as both a sword and a bow. The listed 1d10 damage for a Sling Staff applies also to melee attacks since that is what is listed in the entry.
3.) The Halfling Sling Staff is still both a sling and a staff (itsayssorightinthename!!!), but it is PRIMARILY a ranged weapon (hence: sling group and ranged table). Use the provided 1d10 damage stats for ranged and reference the “staff” on the Simple Melee Weapons table for melee damage (1d4). I think this is probably the most fair and balanced implementation, but I also think there’s the least support for it in the actual text - it doesn’t tell you to reference anything, and that would be kind of a big deal.

Other points of note:
‣ If a Halfling Sling Staff can’t be used as both of those weapons please, Development Team, for the love of Gozreh, name it something else. Like… “Halfling Longsling”. Or call it a “Titan Sling”. Anything, at all, else. Thanks.
‣ It doesn’t make logical sense that a Sling Staff can’t be used as a melee weapon. It’s a wooden stick. Staves are weapons. Clubs are weapons. The sling part is a small scrap of leather at one end. Heck, even crafting tools are improvised weapons in 2e. But it’s somehow impossible for my character to thwack an enemy over the head with a sling staff? Golarion space-time forbids it?
‣ Sling Staves are uncommon weapons in the new 2e, which means that NO ONE can use it without spending AT LEAST one feat, at least two if you’re not a halfling. It can cost up to three if you play a class with extreme limitations on weapon proficiencies. That’s a steep cost for basic proficiency. It would make sense for weapons listed as Uncommon, and bearing that kind of potential feat cost, to be “better” and/or have unique advantages (like a sling staff having the flexibility to be used at range and in melee).
‣ Almost every incarnation I have ever seen of this weapon in tabletop is both ranged and melee. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I really couldn’t help pointing out precedent (per my experience).

No one I’ve spoken with in our gaming group, including our GM, knows the answer to: how do Halfling Sling Staves work? There are valid points and counterpoints to each of the three reads on Sling Staves that we have identified. Unless a Dev decides to clarify the rules for Sling Staves in the next week and a half our GM is going to have to make a judgement call, and possibly put it to a party vote. In the meantime, my character is stuck.

Attempting to pick a weapon has cost me another 1 Sanity pt.

I tried to look at special materials in the meantime just to theorycraft while I’m stuck. I thought Darkwood would be a strong choice for my weapon (if Sling Staves work in 2e the way I originally assumed)

Did you know for an item to be made of Darkwood it must be Master quality? Did you know they list hardness values for Expert quality, apparently non-existent Darkwood? Furthermore, no one in our group can figure out how you are supposed to build items from any of the special materials. How many items levels do special materials add to the base item, for starters? What level item would a Darkwood Sling Staff even be? Or mithral full plate armor?

I don’t know. We don’t know.

Browsing special materials has cost me 1 Sanity pt.

Our GM has been playing and running tabletop for 40+ years. I’ve been at it for almost 25 years. Everyone in our group has a good amount of experience under their belt, from a wide variety of systems. And all of us are finding large chunks of Pathfinder 2e Playtest downright indecipherable.

For now, I am sticking with the playtest. But I really don’t know how many more two or three day character creation rabbit-holes I have in me. It’s not streamlined. It’s not clear. Many of the mechanical design choices have very, very strange implications for the world itself (like goblins making extremely strong paladins).

And since I’ve spent more than ten minutes typing this I have acquired the Exhausted condition (because typing is so tiring) on top of my Sanity loss. I must rest. Happy trails, friends, and may your next character build go smoother than mine.

Edit: Necessary correction, thank you to ENHenry for catching it! :)

[ENHenry]

TheBlueFairy wrote:

Our GM has been playing and running tabletop for 40+ years. I’ve been at it for almost 25 years. Everyone in our group has a good amount of experience under their belt, from a wide variety of systems. And all of us are finding large chunks of Pathfinder 2e Playtest downright indecipherable.

Minor correction; PF2 is not out, technically (yes, It's a picky distinction, I know). It's the fact that this is a playtest document is the reason why most of the problems you mention exist. The Darkwood Master Quality thing (likely an early version change sneaking in, likely expert is allowed too), the halfling weapon confusion, plus things like wizards being untrained in "not being armored", etc. etc. Are the reasons why your feedback and others' are essential.

...Except for the Goblin Paladin thing. That part makes me giggle in demented glee at the thought of Goblin Paladins being some of the best paladins out there, after countless years of being hunted by good-aligned races... :-)

[BardicWander]

My first impression, considering that the Halfling Sling Staff is both a sling and a staff is that you should be able to whack people with it. I mean, it's a stick -- shouldn't we be able to whack people with sticks?

There's rules for improvised weapons, but they are specifically of poor quality and the GM determines how much damage they do -- I'm pretty sure a Halfling Sling Staff would be better quality than "poor."

So... on that note, I agree that the staff should have a melee component and deal staff-esque damage.

[Draco18s]

ENHenry wrote:

plus things like wizards being untrained in "not being armored", etc. etc. Are the reasons why your feedback and others'

Note: unarmored defense is trained for all classes (it was in the first errata update).

[Thebazilly]

On Paladin Race optimization:
That's the way it goes, I guess. Paizo doesn't like races with Str bonuses for some reason. (Just take a look at all the races for PF1, I think there were a total of 2 or 3 with Str, and easily three times that with Dex.)

On Halfing Sling Staff:
The sling staff is a ranged weapon and not used for thwacking people. It's more like an atlatl or one of those tennis ball throwers for playing fetch with your dog than a quarterstaff. It's used to gain leverage on the throw. If someone used a sling staff as a melee weapon, I would rule it as an improvised weapon, since it's not meant to be used for that purpose. No other ranged weapons can be used for melee attacks, even if you could argue that you can smack someone with a bow.

On special materials:
The tables for hardness list Expert, Master, and Legendary Hardnesses for all items. I suppose it could be made more clear if the Expert and/or Master qualities were left off for the items which can't be crafted at the lower qualities, but the information you're looking for is there.

The listed example items made of special materials seem to indicate that a special material does not change the level of the item, it is still based only on the quality of the item, as noted on page 190. The material does seem to change the item's rarity to the rarity of the material, though. (See Adamantine Battleaxe on page 356, which is a 7th-level Master-Quality Uncommon item.)

[Requielle]

Hi! I'm the GM for the playtest referenced in the original post!

I have a super-simple thought... it shouldn't be this hard. For a system that is supposed to be streamlined, it just isn't. None of my players have managed to create a character in less than "hours" of time. And if experienced players are running into this much difficulty, then it is probably far too convoluted to serve as a friendly introduction to TTRPGs for a new player.

I'll have an answer (barring some sort of official clarification from Paizo) for my player before the 12th, when we start AaSF... but I don't know if it will be the right answer. I've had a lot of those moments running Doomsday Dawn - I have answers, and I either don't know if they are right or I don't know why they are right. Both of those are uncomfortable places to be in running a game.

I have posted previously about my dislike of the opaque monster creation process and the differing rules for "these 5 people" and "the entire rest of the universe". The item rules are starting to feel rather arbitrary and inexplicable, too.

[MostlyNope42]

Thebazilly wrote:

The listed example items made of special materials seem to indicate that a special material does not change the level of the item, it is still based only on the quality of the item, as noted on page 190. The material does seem to change the item's rarity to the rarity of the material, though. (See Adamantine Battleaxe on page 356, which is a 7th-level Master-Quality Uncommon item.)

Confusion comes from following...

(Source, Page 190)
Expert Quality Weapons and Armor (Not Heavy Armor) 2nd Level

(Source, Page 355)
Cold Iron, Requirement expert or better.
Silver, Requirement expert or better.

(Source , Page 349)
3rd level treasure table.

Cold iron warhammer
Silver Dagger

------------------
(Source, Page 351)
Also, according to table 9th Level treasure

Adamantine battleaxe.

------------------

What is correct, the entry or the table? Table seems to think it is most important according to page 348.

(Source, Page 356)
Does show 2nd Level for the hammer and dagger, as well as 7th level for the axe.

------------------

Now enter confusion stage access trapdoor spring-box, all hail our future Goblin Paladin Saviors!

[Gaterie]

TheBlueFairy wrote:

I think the primary “disadvantage” you need to overcome on a goblin paladin is simply the RP. As with most unusual race/class combinations, that dilemma is almost always solved by a backstory along the lines of, “But I’m the weird one for {reasons}.”

I've played a goblin paladin back in the day, in D&D 3.5. At the time they had -2 Str -2 Cha, and they weren't a "normal" PC race. It was an awesome experience. He wasn't about "honor" or other abstract concepts, he was just doing what had to be done: he simply knew evil is wrong and good is better - int was his dump stat. He was usually despised by NPCs, until he did something good for no reward or until some cleric detected good (the strong aura of good was always impressive on a small goblin): it was awesome to see the NPCs making strong apologies, while the character doesn't really care - the character simply did what he felt was right. And he was called "Suce-Cailloux" (you can translate it by "the one who suck rocks"), because he was considered stupid by his own tribe - with all his remark about "it's not fun to kill or torture people", "we shouldn't raid and steal, we should farm, craft and do some commerce instead", he wasn't popular among goblins.

In the other hand, playing a goblin paladin in a world where people like goblin adventurers, and because goblins are the strongest choice for paladins, is lame. And it feels wrong. I agree with your -1 sanity. I just wanted to point: Goblin paladins are awesome when they are "the weird one" (as you said), not when they are standard because it's the best choice.

Concerning the sling staff: I'd consider an expert quality sling staff as a quarterstaff (ie d4/d8 damages, depending if you wield it one-handed or two handed). If the weapon is expert-quality, it should be solid and have a good balance, you should be able to use it as a quarterstaff. I guess I'd separate the "sling potency runes" and the "staff potency runes". In the end: it costs you as much money as buying a sling and a staff, but you don't have to spend action to switch weapon between ranged and melee; your melee weapon is weak, your ranged weapon is very strong.

[Matthew Downie]

The rule from PF1 was: "A halfling sling staff can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size."

[ENHenry]

Draco18s wrote:

ENHenry wrote:

plus things like wizards being untrained in "not being armored", etc. etc. Are the reasons why your feedback and others'

Note: unarmored defense is trained for all classes (it was in the first errata update).

That's why I used it as an example of a bug in the system.

[SuperSheep]

Treasure table is wrong. Special materials don't add item levels or rarity.

In fact, there is no additive items levels or rarity in the game. Each item is the item level of the highest property that has an item level and the highest rarity of it's various properties.

So expert weapon = 2
+1 weapon rune = 4

So a +1 expert weapon is item level 4.

A +1 master darkwood weapon is item level 7 (+1 rune = 4, master quality = 7)

One of the very real problems is that people are understandably reading in 1e rules into the 2e playtest. In this case there isn't anything that mentions additive logic for item levels or rarity so it simply doesn't work that way.

[Gaterie]

SuperSheep wrote:

One of the very real problems is that people are understandably reading in 1e rules into the 2e playtest. In this case there isn't anything that mentions additive logic for item levels or rarity so it simply doesn't work that way.

The other problem is the rules don't make a lot of sense to begin with.

If I create a level 9 character, the wbl give me a level 8 item. I can take a +2 sword, or a +2 ghost touch wounding silver sword (of master-quality) (replace silver with mithral or adamantium if I can get an uncommon material): both are level 8. Why would I choose the former?

Spoiler:

Do every level 9 character wears a +2 shadow mithral armor of invibility?

[GreatGraySkwid]

My own Paladin of Shelyn is having his own Special Materials dilemma. The level 5 build (for PFS "Crit Con" this weekend) would like an Expert Cold Iron Glaive. The Cold Iron Warhammer mentioned above is a Level 2 item (which meshes with the general rule in the Equipment chapter section "EXPERT, MASTER, AND LEGENDARY ITEMS: "Expert quality armor and weapons are 2nd-level items" (p. 190)), but per the "TREASURE FOR NEW CHARACTERS" section: "In the case of items made from special materials, items should be selected based on the table in which they appear, not their item level," (p. 348) it is a Level 3 treasure. My problem, though, is that the Glaive, which is a sword on a stick, is Bulk 2, and the rules for special materials have no exceptions for mixed material weapons. So if I took the sword off my stick and put a hilt on it, it would cost 60 Gold to make it out of Cold Iron, but because it's on a stick it costs 120 Gold. If Treasure level is governed by crafting cost in some undefined fashion (which seems to be what is implied here by the treasure level of the example SM items), then that would make it a Level 5-ish treasure, and makes special material polearms, in general, a crap-ton more expensive.

I've asked my VOs what-do, and they haven't come to a ruling yet, I don't think.

[Snickersnax]

I can relate to your tribulations of paladin creation. I spent 4 hours on my first one. And now for A.A.S.H. I have come to the conclusion that clerics make better paladins than paladins do. So my next paladin is going to be a cleric :(

[DragoonSpirits86]

Gaterie wrote:

SuperSheep wrote:

One of the very real problems is that people are understandably reading in 1e rules into the 2e playtest. In this case there isn't anything that mentions additive logic for item levels or rarity so it simply doesn't work that way.

The other problem is the rules don't make a lot of sense to begin with.

If I create a level 9 character, the wbl give me a level 8 item. I can take a +2 sword, or a +2 ghost touch wounding silver sword (of master-quality) (replace silver with mithral or adamantium if I can get an uncommon material): both are level 8. Why would I choose the former?

** spoiler omitted **

Well, players wouldnt because they cant. And this kind of goes to what was being said about reading in PF1 rules into PF2. In PF1 enchantments were more or less 'hard baked' into the items which they enchanted. In PF2 this seems to be explicitly NOT the case. While the treasure by level seems to make specific exceptions for potency already included in armor/weapons, but in general runes are seperate(though transferable) items in their own right. So in your example, a +2 ghost touch wounding silver sword isn't a level 8 item. Its actually 4 different items; Its a Expert quality silver sword(Item lvl2) + a ghost touch property rune(Item lvl 4) + a wounding property rune(item lvl 6) + a +2 weapon potency rune(Item lvl 8).

[Gaterie]

DragoonSpirits86 wrote:

Gaterie wrote:

If I create a level 9 character, the wbl give me a level 8 item. I can take a +2 sword, or a +2 ghost touch wounding silver sword (of master-quality) (replace silver with mithral or adamantium if I can get an uncommon material): both are level 8. Why would I choose the former?

Well, players wouldnt because they cant. And this kind of goes to what was being said about reading in PF1 rules into PF2. In PF1 enchantments were more or less 'hard baked' into the items which they enchanted. In PF2 this seems to be explicitly NOT the case. While the treasure by level seems to make specific exceptions for potency already included in armor/weapons, but in general runes are seperate(though transferable) items in their own right. So in your example, a +2 ghost touch wounding silver sword isn't a level 8 item. Its actually 4 different items; Its a Expert quality silver sword(Item lvl2) + a ghost touch property rune(Item lvl 4) + a wounding property rune(item lvl 6) + a +2 weapon potency rune(Item lvl 8).

Actually it's a master quality sword (Level 7 item); otherwise I wouldn't be able to attach two property runes.

So what's you're saying is: if I'm creating a level 4 character, he has to spend his level 3 item and one of his level 2 item to get a +1 Breastplate. That still doesn't make much sense, but why not.

Spoiler:

Obviously his other level 2 item is an expert-quality sword, and he has a level 1 item left (obviously a composite shortbow). wbl rules are even worse than I though.

Anyway, are you actually sure the +2 ghost touch wounding silver sword is actually 4 different items? I count 5 items: a master quality silver sword (Item lvl7) + a ghost touch property rune (Item lvl 4) + a wounding property rune (item lvl 6) + a +1 weapon potency rune (Item lvl 4) + a +2 weapon potency rune (Item lvl 8). As per the rules p 371, the +2 weapon potency rune can only be etched on a +1 sword.

Now let's say I create a level 13 character and I want a +3 sword. I need a master-quality sword (level 7), a +1 weapon potency rune (level 4), a +2 weapon potency rune (level 8) and a +3 weapon potency rune (level 12). The wbl don't give me any level 8- items, so I have to buy the master sword (360 gp), a +1 weapon potency rune (65 gp) and a +2 weapon potency rune (400 gp), for a total of 825 gp. I have 1000 gp total, so I can't have a +3 armor at the same time...

OK, So I can't have a +3 sword at level 13.

... I can't have a +2 sword either, since the price is exactly the same: a master-quality sword, a +1 weapon potency rune and a +2 weapon potency rune. I guess i have to use a +1 sword (and a +1 armor).

Now the question is: what am I supposed to do against level-appropriate monsters with my pityful 2d8+5 damages? Not to mention, my to hit, my AC and my saves are 2 points lower than expected at this level, and the monster have über-legendary abilities. The game was already very hard with a +3 sword and a +3 armor at level 13, I don't think possible to win 1 encounter worth some xp with a +1 sword and a +1 armor.

Maybe I can use one of my level 11 item to get the +2 weapon potency rune? So my equipment would be: +3 weapon potency rune (item level 12), +3 armor potency rune (item level 11), +2 weapon potency rune (in place of a level 11 item), +2 armor potency rune (in place of my level 10 item), master quality sword (in place of a level 9 item), master quality armor (in place of the other level 9 item), +1 weapon potency rune (65 gp), +1 armor potency rune (25 gp), 910 gp for consummable and other items.

Oh wait, I need a bow as well - and it has to deal adequate damages, ie at least a +2 bow. And maybe i should buy the master quality sword and master quality armor for 720 gp and forget about consumables, and get some level 10 +skill item?...

... So much accountancy just for a few items. A few items I'm required to take to be level-appropriate. Since those items are required, why can't i just write on my sheet "+3 sword, +3 armor, +2 bow, +3 whatever skill random item"?

Can we just play Smash Bros and forget about Path 2?

[The Sideromancer]

Gaterie wrote:

Can we just play Smash Bros and forget about Path 2?

derail:

In a sense, Smash and PF2 have a similar problem: they model certain characters fine, but utterly fail to deliver on others. Credit where it's due, I have no complaints about any character introduced in SSB4 or later that is neither an echo fighter nor named greninja. But I'm bothered by the trend of accepting moveset copies when the character is perfectly capable of being unique (to use an example not in-game yet, Dark Meta Knight could work very well as a projectile-based fighter because he has as many ranged options as he needs within the Kirby games he appears in) and the devs need to take a good hard look at the pokemon games, because I frankly can't tell if they backcheck anything for that series. It feels more like they just took a quick look at the tv show and forgot that Smash is about video game characters, not anime ones. As an easy example, let's look at charizard:

Hp: 78
(physical) attack: 84
(physical) defense: 78
special attack: 109
Special defense: 85
Speed: 100
Notable moves: Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, Air Slash (as in, slashes using the air as a blade), Fire Blast, Solar Beam.

I look at that and see a special bias, but mostly just a decently fast generalist. How "slow as it gets physically defensive" enters the equation I have no idea. Never mind the fact that a lot of physical sets use a move that increases both attack and speed. It got *one* of it's main moves... a game after it's release.

There's some other tweaks I would like for older characters (e.g. Samus could really use ice beam access) but I'll admit it's mostly only my favourite series that's in the garbage bin.

So I guess I'll have a hard time playing Smash to forget PF2.

[SuperSheep]

You do not have to account for a +1 rune when selecting a +2 rune as part of your starting selections.

As someone previously stated property runes are separate items, though so you can't pick up multiple runes for free.

The only rune that is included in the purchase is the potency rune.

[Gaterie]

SuperSheep wrote:

You do not have to account for a +1 rune when selecting a +2 rune as part of your starting selections.

As someone previously stated property runes are separate items, though so you can't pick up multiple runes for free.

The only rune that is included in the purchase is the potency rune.

You need a +1 rune to etch a +2 rune. That's the rule p 371.

Either you look at the final item level only, and a ghost touch rune doesn't increase the level of the weapon (and it's free at character creation). Either you must afford for every individual rune at character creation, and a +2 rune is useless by itself: you need a +1 rune as well to etch it. Either you use some byzantine and unstated character creation rule where some runes have to be afforded and others don't for no discernable reason.

As I said, the wbl rules at character creation don't make a lot of sense. This is why people don't know how they can get special materials at character creation.

[Thebazilly]

Gaterie wrote:

SuperSheep wrote:

You do not have to account for a +1 rune when selecting a +2 rune as part of your starting selections.

As someone previously stated property runes are separate items, though so you can't pick up multiple runes for free.

The only rune that is included in the purchase is the potency rune.

You need a +1 rune to etch a +2 rune. That's the rule p 371.

Either you look at the final item level only, and a ghost touch rune doesn't increase the level of the weapon (and it's free at character creation). Either you must afford for every individual rune at character creation, and a +2 rune is useless by itself: you need a +1 rune as well to etch it. Either you use some byzantine and unstated character creation rule where some runes have to be afforded and others don't for no discernable reason.

As I said, the wbl rules at character creation don't make a lot of sense. This is why people don't know how they can get special materials at character creation.

A +2 magic weapon is on the treasure table as an 8th-level item. So, you can take a weapon with the +2 rune already installed. You don't have to do it that way, the +2 potency rune is also an 8th-level item, but you get the weapon and potency rune together for the +2 magic weapon.

A ghost touch weapon is not on the treasure table, but a ghost touch rune is a 4th-level item. So, you can take a ghost touch rune as your treasure and add it to your +2 weapon.

[FoxofShadows]

When selecting the armor as starting treasure, you pick the weapon or armor with the Potency Rune on it, for example, you can select +1 magic light or medium armor as a third level item, or a +1 light or medium armor potency rune as a 3rd level item if you wanted to add the rune to existing armor. Alternatively you purchase a +1 magic light or medium armor for 60 gp. You would likely have to purchase the property runes separately, but if you selected a +2 magic armor from the 7th level treasure table or purchased it for 360 gp, you would have to purchase a +1 armor potency rune for the item since items can only have one potency runes on them at a time. As the treasure tables are specific and the etching rules under runes is general, the treasure lists over rule the etching rules since Specific > General.

[Gaterie]

Thebazilly wrote:

A +2 magic weapon is on the treasure table as an 8th-level item. So, you can take a weapon with the +2 rune already installed. You don't have to do it that way, the +2 potency rune is also an 8th-level item, but you get the weapon and potency rune together for the +2 magic weapon.

fair enough.

The initial question was about darkwood sling staff and mithral armor. Those aren't on the table. How can someone get a +2 darkwood sling staff?

[Red Griffyn]

Here is the Paladin build I did.

He dips into cleric so he can swap spell points from CHA to WIS for Lay on Hands (LoHs). Thus with a CHA of 12 and WIS of 16 he has better saves and 4 spell points. It also nets him the shield cantrip which can be used without hands (allowing a two handed build).

He is mostly a Paladin for Armor proficiency/weapon proficiency bumps. I grabbed a bastard sword incase I want to pull and item and drink, then I have the benefit of two handing for 1d12 or still fighting one handed for 1d8.

If you're worried about darkvision, just grab the goggles of night and you can have +2 to perception as well as darkvision for 10 mins for 1 resonance point.

I don't see how you would get special material items. Aren't the item levels all above what the build guide prescribes?

[Asgetrion]

I'm getting a headache at just glancing at those posts about magic items, potency, runes, materials and whatnot... as Requielle said above, it shouldn't be this hard, and now we're simply talking about *one* aspect (weapons) of a character. The rules are, IMO, so convoluted and obscure that I couldn't finish a single character I tried to create. I have problems comprehending most aspects of the mechanics: resonance, equipment, magic items, hazards/traps, magic and the whole action system. And these are just a few examples.

Simplified and more streamlined than PF1? I wouldn't exactly call the PT rules that...

[Ed Reppert]

From the wikipedia article on slings: "The staff itself can become a close combat weapon in a melee."

BTW, personally I think the 1d4 for a staff undervalues the weapon. Especially after watching a youtube video in which a test was run, putting a fencer's helmet on a watermelon, and whacking it with first a sword and second a quarterstaff. First effort (sword): zero damage to the melon. Second effort (staff): the melon was split open. If that was somebody's head... :-) Anyway, I think the staff ought to be 1d8.

[Joey Cote]

So far as the darkwood staffsling goes, it has to be a master quality item. There is an adamantine battleaxe on the 9th level treasure list which also has to be master quality (because adamantine requires master). They are also both 1+ bulk and both special materials so match up closely on the cost well. You could maybe try to argue the darkwood slingstaff would only be 8th level item, but the staff would cost 600gp, which is more then anything on the level 8 chart, but there is a 600gp item on the level 9 chart.

I personally assume that in the description section that saying the adamantine battleaxe is a level 7 items is a mistake as its far more powerful then a regular master weapon. Its a mistake that hopefully has been brought up to the developers. The mithril chainmail and elven chain sure as hell shouldn't be listed as 7th level items.

There shouldn't be a listing for expert darkwood item's hardness, because they shouldn't exist. But this is a beta, not a finished game, and there are tons of bugs, some really big, nasty bugs.

Personally, I don't really know why you would really want a staffsling made out of darkwood, I guess reducing the bulk by 1 is kind of nice, but not worth a level 9 item.

You should be able to get a master quality weapon/armor as a level 7 item, on page 190 in the rules for item quality the rules say they are level 7 item. I guess they needed to save space on the treasure chart and just didn't put in master quality armor weapons.

I really don't think the rune system is especially difficult. The rule for an item taking its highest level rune and treating that as the level of the weapon is being folded and mutilated by those that want to argue that means that when you buy an object off the treasure chart for a starting character, that allows you to also slap a "free" rune on it so long as its lower level. I don't know why that little rule is in there unless its for some effect which would negate the magic on an item. Which might not be in the rules now, but is the kind of thing that could be added in (disenchanter beast, rod of cancellation, etc).

[Joey Cote]

Gaterie wrote:

Thebazilly wrote:

A +2 magic weapon is on the treasure table as an 8th-level item. So, you can take a weapon with the +2 rune already installed. You don't have to do it that way, the +2 potency rune is also an 8th-level item, but you get the weapon and potency rune together for the +2 magic weapon.

fair enough.

The initial question was about darkwood sling staff and mithral armor. Those aren't on the table. How can someone get a +2 darkwood sling staff?

One thing that is a real annoyance with the rune system with the treasure chart is if you take a +2 potency rune as part of your starting equipment, you cannot just slap that on an expert item, you actually also have to have either a +1 potency rune or the item you want to put it on has to have a +1 potency rune. Which I bet a lot of people don't realize.

[Ed Reppert]

The treasure chart is intended for building high level characters from scratch, or perhaps for randomly assigning treasure in a scenario. So I would think, RAW, you can take things that are actually on the chart, but not things that are not there. So yeah, if you take a plus two rune off the chart you're going to have to find a plus one rune and an expert weapon (or armor, as appropriate) before you can actually use it. Which I doubt many people would do.