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According to the rules, it seems like spells that require a saving throw get progressively less effective, capping off at about a -2 (10%) disadvantage versus spells that require an attack. Is this by design?
Both touch and ranged spells get magic items that give an item bonus to their rolls (Spell Duelist's Gloves and Spell Duelist's Wand). This helps them balance out versus armor Potency Runes that provide an item bonus to TAC. Both of these things progress at an equal rate.
But there is no equivalent item (that I have seen) for spells that require a saving throw. Anyone found one? Did I miss it?
This means that while armor ramps up providing an item bonus from 1 to 5 on saving throws, the save DC for spells ramps up from +0 (trained) to +3 (legendary) at 19th level. This means that in the long run, against an opponent with current armor, spells that require a save are at a disadvantage ranging from -2 to -3, all other things (bonus from ability modifiers, opponent trained in saving throws, etc.) being equal.
Does this seem right? That means that being Legendary at spellcasting doesn't really give you a +3 bonus. It just means your spell DCs only get a -2 penalty.
BUT, this assumes that opponents are only trained in saving throws. For an opponent that is expert in a save, saving throw spell DCs would tend to be at a -3 penalty, masters saves -> -4 penalty, legendary saves -> -5 penalty.
It seems like there should be an item that provides casters with an item bonus to their spell DCs.
Here is a table of how spell DCs are at a disadvantage versus trained saving throws, by level (and again, increasing saving throw proficiency makes each penalty increases correspondingly):
Level / Bonuses and net spell DCs
1 net spell DC 0
2 net spell DC 0
3 Armor potency +1 saves, net spell DC -1
4 net spell DC -1
5 net spell DC -1
6 net spell DC -1
7 Armor potency +1 saves, net spell DC -2
8 net spell DC -2
9 net spell DC -2
10 net spell DC -2
11 Armor potency +1 saves, net spell DC -3
12 DC +1 (Expert), net spell DC -2
13 net spell DC -2
14 net spell DC -2
15 Armor potency +1 saves, net spell DC -3
16 DC +2 (Master), net spell DC -2
17 net spell DC -2
18 net spell DC -2
19 DC +3 (Legendary), Armor potency +1 saves, net spell DC -2
20 net spell DC -2
Note that spell DC is based on the caster's primary stat, which will be probably higher than Strength/Dexterity which is used to calculate attack rolls.
For the caster, definitely, and for the victim, also (the save is unlikely to be the target's primary stat, even if Legendary. Unless you're Fireballing a Monk). That means there's a sort of imbalance that might plug up the penalty... Still doesn't feel the best, however.
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Note that spell DC is based on the caster's primary stat, which will be probably higher than Strength/Dexterity which is used to calculate attack rolls.
Also, every character can only have a single ability increased by an item at any time. Casters are very likely to pick their main ability score, allowing them to reach a +7 modifier by level 20. Their dex modifier can't be higher than +5 unless you focus heavily on touch attacks and equip a dex boost item instead of one for your spell casting score.
I'm not saying this is balanced or anything. Haven't looked at the numbers nearly enough to come to any conclusion. It's just something to keep in mind.
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Note that spell DC is based on the caster's primary stat, which will be probably higher than Strength/Dexterity which is used to calculate attack rolls.Also, every character can only have a single ability increased by an item at any time. Casters are very likely to pick their main ability score, allowing them to reach a +7 modifier by level 20. Their dex modifier can't be higher than +5 unless you focus heavily on touch attacks and equip a dex boost item instead of one for your spell casting score.
I'm not saying this is balanced or anything. Haven't looked at the numbers nearly enough to come to any conclusion. It's just something to keep in mind.
Good point. For classes/monsters not focused on stats that buff a saving throw, their lag in the ability by 2-3 points would help casters break even. Maybe this is balanced as is. Will have to do more math and maybe look at the bestiary.
Note that spell DC is based on the caster's primary stat, which will be probably higher than Strength/Dexterity which is used to calculate attack rolls.
But by contrast, note that TAC is lower than regular AC to improve the odds that a spell attack lands.
I think more important is that save based spells usually have an effect even if the target passes the save, while attacks do not have an effect if they miss. So a save spell is more likely than a touch spell to do something, but less likely to have full effect.
I think more important is that save based spells usually have an effect even if the target passes the save, while attacks do not have an effect if they miss. So a save spell is more likely than a touch spell to do something, but less likely to have full effect.
Definitely worth considering, although I will point out that some effects don't match this. Echoing Nightmares (a domain ability via Spell Points) causes the player to be confused for a round if the target succeeds their save (and for a minute if it was a critical success).
You create a nightmare conduit between your mind and the
target, ensuring one of you is confused, depending on the
target’s Will save.
Success You are confused until the end of your next turn.
Critical Success You are confused for 1 minute.
Failure The target is confused for 3 rounds. It can attempt a
new Will save at the end of each of its turns to end the effect.
Critical Failure The target is confused for 1 minute.
For what it's worth: I literally finished my first Playtest Session about 40 minutes ago, playing a Halfling Wizard at level 1 (not Doomsday Dawn but homebrew). I definitely liked Electric Arc more than Ray of Frost. A good chance to deal 1d6 with a 50% chance for half damage feels better than 1d8 with 50% chance for nothing.
I will say that due to the situations we faced I could target two foes with Electrc Arc most of the time, though I did cast Arc more than once on a single target.
I'm also planning on Multiclassing to Cleric starting level 2 so my Dex of 14 wasn't quite as good as it could be because I focused Wisdom. Satrting with Dex 16 would make me more confident in using touch spells.
That's purely anecdotal, of course, but going by my first impression, I would not say spells with saves are worse.
For what it's worth: I literally finished my first Playtest Session about 40 minutes ago, playing a Halfling Wizard at level 1 (not Doomsday Dawn but homebrew). I definitely liked Electric Arc more than Ray of Frost. A good chance to deal 1d6 with a 50% chance for half damage feels better than 1d8 with 50% chance for nothing.
Oh yeah, I agree.
My chapter2 doomsdaydawn character took the elf ancestry feat to pick up "a cantrip" to get it, as it wasn't on my spell list otherwise.
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That is incorrect. Both the caste's primary stat and the Strenght/Dexterity will be 18 at 1st level in the vast majority of PCs.
You can't get two 18s at char gen. Its impossible. There's only 4 steps to assigning attributes and one of those steps (class) only gives you one boost.
Note that spell DC is based on the caster's primary stat, which will be probably higher than Strength/Dexterity which is used to calculate attack rolls.That is incorrect. Both the caste's primary stat and the Strenght/Dexterity will be 18 at 1st level in the vast majority of PCs.
The only difference will be, as mentionned earlier, TAC vs regular AC.
It is impossible for a PC to have two 18 stats at 1st level in the playtest.