[Closed] The Problem With "Gaming Is For All"

[The Norv]

HillTopper wrote:

Insisting on in-group social science terminology can be just as off-putting as any slur-laden tirade.

Hahahahahahahahaha are you FUDGING SERIOUS.

Picture, if you will, a white man from the Deep South of the United States going on a tirade at your table against African Americans.

Now picture someone saying to you, “We’d like to remind you to help your table be a safe space for your players. We’re using that word because most people understand what it means and it seems like the best term to clarify our intent.

TOTALLY equivalently offensive.

[HWalsh]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

As an added bonus using the words Safe Space seems to cause an involuntary reaction in people that makes it clear whether or not they’re capable of being in, or maintaining one.

Another win really.

Again - Hence why I said it is being used as a weapon.

You shouldn't use the words "Safe Space" as a way to exclude people, even people you don't agree with. If the words become exclusionary then they lose their meaning. They become corrupted.

The game is either open and inclusive to all, or it isn't.

That is why when I proposed a re-write I left that part ambiguous and left it up to the GM because (in the end) it ultimately is up to the GM. That page isn't helping anyone in being so heavy handed.

1. It isn't going to stop people who are jerks from being jerks.
2. It might turn off people who aren't jerks.
3. It creates an obvious political stance that comes across as very heavy handed.

Again, it doesn't change anything for me, I agree with the message behind it. I just don't agree with how it is being said.

[HWalsh]

The Norv wrote:

HillTopper wrote:

Insisting on in-group social science terminology can be just as off-putting as any slur-laden tirade.

Hahahahahahahahaha are you FUDGING SERIOUS.

Picture, if you will, a white man from the Deep South of the United States going on a tirade at your table against African Americans.

Now picture someone saying to you, “We’d like to remind you to help your table be a safe space for your players. We’re using that word because most people understand what it means and it seems like the best term to clarify our intent.

TOTALLY equivalently offensive.

Uh... Not particularly the term Safe Space... But Paizo's wording actually tells GMs what they are expected to include in games.

"People of all identities and experiences have a right to be represented in the game, even if they’re not necessarily playing at your table."

I've been GM'ing for 30 years. I have been a lifelong supporter of the LGBTQ community. I am part of the LGBTQ community.

I don't think, "Oh no I have to include X, Y, Z character for representation purposes."

Have I had LGBTQ NPCs? Yes. Of course! I did it because it made sense for the story. I don't include NPCs for inclusion. I do what the needs are for the story.

Again:

When I run games I am not running games to give my players morality lessons. I am not there to talk about ethics. I am there to tell a story and my efforts should be single-focused on that goal.

[Balsamic Dragon]

You know, I've seen this conversation many times on various forums. Here's my perspective:

I've been running and playing tabletop RPGs since the 1970s. Gaming rules have always had political messages in them. Since the very beginning. Often, the messages were negative, to try to exclude certain people from feeling like the game was written for them to play. And sometimes they were positive, to encourage those who might have felt excluded to join in the fun.

So the fact that this message is there, in the rules, is not at all new or controversial.

What is new, is that audiences are much more aware that a) there are people who have been routinely excluded from gaming spaces, harassed and driven away, and b) there are people who have deliberately set out to do this. Those two groups do not encompass all gamers. Maybe your group has been sheltered from this. But far fewer people can honestly say that now. More and more people have experienced or witnessed this conflict.

So this sort of message doesn't get skimmed over as much, in favor of the meatier sections of the rules.

If you read this, and you are one of those lucky folks who has not been affected by harassment or intolerance, and doesn't practice it on their own, then please feel safe in the knowledge that no one is going to change the way that you play your game.

If you read this and think: This is going to empower a type of person who has complained about the way that I run my games, or the way that I play my characters, then you may be in for an unpleasant awakening. Because I guarantee that a few paragraphs written by a game developer isn't what is going to stop intolerance in gaming. What is going to stop intolerance in gaming is legions of players, both old and new, who have decided that they do not have to put up with it anymore. _I'm_ going to be the one to tell you, you can't use that sort of language at my table, and if you do, you will have to leave. Not Paizo.

But if you read this and think: Maybe Paizo, as a company, really does respect my interest in their game and wants me as a customer, then this language was written for you. And, like me, you will feel a bit better about spending a lot of money on Paizo products and running a bunch of Paizo games. You will be able to recommend their books without as many of the typical warnings that you have to give to new gamers. You'll be able to introduce more people into the hobby. And the hobby will become a better place for everyone.

[pogie]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Wowie wrote:

The problem with the "safe space" speech is that it immediately makes me feel unsafe. Like everything I say or do is going to be Judged, and that if I make one accidental misstep I'm going to irrevocably anger someone, or worse.

For people who genuinely share this concern, I strongly recommend the X-Card system as a means of making sure everybody's boundaries are respected with no opportunity for recrimination.

I would rather not play than play with safe space codified rules like that. Jesus people. Respect everyone at the table. If you have a problem with something, say so and work it out. My god. X card system.

[HWalsh]

Balsamic Dragon wrote:

You know, I've seen this conversation many times on various forums. Here's my perspective:

I've been running and playing tabletop RPGs since the 1970s. Gaming rules have always had political messages in them. Since the very beginning. Often, the messages were negative, to try to exclude certain people from feeling like the game was written for them to play. And sometimes they were positive, to encourage those who might have felt excluded to join in the fun.

So the fact that this message is there, in the rules, is not at all new or controversial.

What is new, is that audiences are much more aware that a) there are people who have been routinely excluded from gaming spaces, harassed and driven away, and b) there are people who have deliberately set out to do this. Those two groups do not encompass all gamers. Maybe your group has been sheltered from this. But far fewer people can honestly say that now. More and more people have experienced or witnessed this conflict.

So this sort of message doesn't get skimmed over as much, in favor of the meatier sections of the rules.

If you read this, and you are one of those lucky folks who has not been affected by harassment or intolerance, and doesn't practice it on their own, then please feel safe in the knowledge that no one is going to change the way that you play your game.

If you read this and think: This is going to empower a type of person who has complained about the way that I run my games, or the way that I play my characters, then you may be in for an unpleasant awakening. Because I guarantee that a few paragraphs written by a game developer isn't what is going to stop intolerance in gaming. What is going to stop intolerance in gaming is legions of players, both old and new, who have decided that they do not have to put up with it anymore. _I'm_ going to be the one to tell you, you can't use that sort of language at my table, and if you do, you will have to leave. Not Paizo.

But if you read this and think: Maybe Paizo, as a...

And I respect that is how you feel.

That isn't how others feel necessarily.

My players have actively turned this page into a joke. They find it silly. I know many other people who are offended by it (Again not offended by the message, I work with a bunch of activists, but by the way it is said). I find it needless and heavy handed.

To say, "If you don't like it, then just ignore it."

Well yeah, and that is why it is pointless, because if reading it makes you feel safer then you also realize that nobody who is going to do anything to make you feel unsafe is going to pay attention to it anyway.

It isn't like Paizo is going to magically appear at someone's gaming table and enforce any of this. In PFS maybe, but that is about it. I would rather the language be written in such a way that it gets people to read it, consider it, and then actually think about it.

As it currently is written nobody that *needs* to change is going to read it and change *anything* and that makes it an ineffective message.

Or... To put it bluntly...

You don't change someone's mind by beating them over the head with a political-sounding message. That has never worked in the history of the Earth I am pretty sure.

[The Norv]

@HWalsh: I wasn’t responding to you, and as far as I can tell there are no “social science terms” in the paragraph you posted.

But I would posit it’s equally ridiculous if you juxtapose the racist white dude with someone saying, “We’d like to encourage you to move the game forward by including depictions of many different kinds of people!”

It sounds like you’re already (at least partly) doing what Paizo is trying to encourage. Why do people always confuse calls for inclusivity with calls for tokenism?

I’m gonna take a sec and try to compose thoughts in response to this thread that don’t involve me twitching with rage.

[SuperSheep]

For those calling for something simple like "Don't be a jerk.", you've missed the point entirely about this being a call to address the toxic gamers in the room.

If certain words have been made political it isn't by the people who created them, but by the people opposed to the ideas those words represent. No one likes being called out on their bad behavior. No one likes the idea that someone would need a safe space from themselves. But people do harm and we can all do less of it.

I would also make the case that being in one marginalized community doesn't mean you're not doing harm to another one. Your inclusion in a marginalized group does not mean you aren't doing harm to others. And I've seen it be used as an excuse far too often.

With regards to mental health issues, many people don't know they have a diagnosed condition. I mention PTSD, but a lot of people just have anxiety, depression, or some other un-diagnosed, but very real condition. Should someone at the table who already feels like an outsider because of their depression tell a mixed group that they have mental health issues? It typically ends up poorly. Mental health is severely stigmatized in every country. Disabilities are stigmatized. And if the requirement to play comfortably at a table is to open themselves up to potential ridicule, even briefly, many will simply opt out.

There is a common idea that is being spouted out that this isn't really a problem in most places. It is. That marginalized groups aren't welcome is such a pervasive sentiment that it's everywhere. Does your local gaming area represent the local population? I doubt it. Do women have to put down other "hysterical" women to prove they're one of the guys? Do LGBTQ people show displays of affection to their partners when they're around or are they scared to ick someone out?

The privilege to be able to be yourself because you tick all the right boxes: white, male, cis-, hetero while other people have to suppress their feelings to be accepted is what keeps people from feeling safe. It's a silent call that you can be here as long as no one else finds out you're not really "one of them". And any call for actual equality where someone can exist in a space as themselves is seen as controversial or being political.

If your response to a woman's discomfort with another man's advances or stares is that she should get over herself. Or if a woman comes forward with stories about your "good" guy friend being inappropriate results in you defending your friend over this "crazy b**tch", then you are the problem, too. If your black friend seems uncomfortable being called "dawg" by your white buddy or your white buddy decides to make the "honest" argument that if he can't use the N-word than no one should and you don't speak up, then you are the problem, too.

Power and privilege maintains itself not through overt action, but by making others hide their thoughts and feelings. Closeted LGBT are well aware that it is the act of being themselves that upsets people and therefore hide it. Black and brown people know they have to code-switch to be like white people in order to exist in their world.

Paizo is creating a call-to-action to say, "be better about these thigns." And I, for one, applaud it.

[ErichAD]

SuperSheep wrote:

For those calling for something simple like "Don't be a jerk.", you've missed the point entirely about this being a call to address the toxic gamers in the room.

So it's a sugar free water situation? I'm not sure pretending that toxicity is an issue and then pretending to solve it is going to thrill too many people.

[Sara Marie]

I apologize it took me so long to write the closing comment for this thread. With website outages and getting sick, I wasn't able to post this until now.

I’m leaving this thread closed. The title and many of the posts in here are inflammatory in a way that is not helpful for growth in our forum community.

The sentiment that “gaming is for all” is one that is incredibly important to us and one that we hope encourages our fans and players to be inclusive with their games. There are those, both at Paizo and in the broader gaming community, who have felt unsafe, harassed or excluded by actions or words from someone using the justification that they were just 'in game' or ‘my character would do it’. This includes harassment or exclusion based on a person coming from a marginalized community. There are also those of us both at Paizo and in the broader gaming community who have unintentionally acted as gatekeepers to gaming or unwittingly made another person feel excluded or unwelcome at our gaming table. As we as a company and as gamers learn and grow together, we hope we can use sections like this one to provide opportunities for gamers to empathize with the people at their table who may have very different perspectives and life experiences, and work to ensure they are feeling welcome and having fun. At the start of a new game, seeking consent over the inclusion of subjects that may be traumatic and actively asking players at the table if there are topics that they wish to avoid not only helps you not accidentally hurt them, but also establishes that those requests can be made if a player later finds themselves faced with content they find traumatic or offensive.

With a new edition, we have the opportunity to create a more inviting space for gamers new to Pathfinder and, in some cases, introduce new players to gaming in general, helping them learn and grow in a hobby that we all enjoy. It’s part of our mission to encourage and support gaming environments where people feel welcome, included and safe. This isn’t to say that people gaming should never feel uncomfortable or that all content must be sanitized to a G rating. Games can be an excellent way of exploring and testing boundaries and ideas. It can be a place where we can explore things that aren’t acceptable or possible for us in real life. And it can also be a place where we reinforce social norms or use word choice and storylines to indicate what is important or valuable to us. When we seek consent and establish boundaries and expectations at the beginning of a new adventure, we can help ensure that the entire table is on board with the content or gaming style and helps ensure we don’t accidentally harm our friends and fellow gamers during play.

We are providing these guidelines as part of the introduction to the game because we feel it is important information for players and GMs to keep in mind as they embark on their roleplaying journey, whether with friends at their kitchen table, with strangers at a convention, or with others online.

In my first pass over this thread, I had hoped for some conversation and dialogue to help people understand what that section is meant for or offer suggestions on ways the language could be more concise or clear. As I reread and follow up reading new posts, its clear this thread isn’t really advancing conversation or dialogue about this topic. However, if you do want to participate in a conversation or provide feedback about the structure or word choice in the “gaming is for all” section, I’m not opposed to have a new thread with title that isn’t inflammatory and dialogue that isn’t baiting or needlessly antagonistic.