Sorcerers: the non-change that MUST happen

[Ediwir]

I mean it. Even if the Sorcerer as it is reaches the end release version, this MUST happen, for so many reasons. And it won't change a thing. Please watch closely:

- Change Bloodline to not contain any powers.
- Instead, add "Any Bloodline allows you to select one level 1 Sorcerer Feat with the Bloodline trait."
- Rework the bloodline powers as feats for level 1, 6 and 10, each requiring their own Bloodline as requirement.
- change the Sorcerer table to allow for a Sorcerer feat at level 6 and 10.

This would have the following consequences:

- nothing.

However, it would allow Sorcerers to pick up lower level feats if wanted, it would allow them to multiclass, and most important, it allows the structural change needed to make bloodlines more flexible / personal in future books, which seems to be the direction most of P2 is taking.

So please,

Even if you change nothing, cover your bases.

(that said, Sorcerer needs a hand)

[Pramxnim]

I agree fully with the changes suggested here. Sorcerers only have 75% of the feats other spellcasters get (6 compared to 8) because their level 6 and 10 feats are locked behind their Bloodline powers.

In addition, Paizo, please reconsider how casters cast spells. Spontaneous casters having to learn higher versions of their spells and only getting to choose 2 (or 4 spells with a feat) spells to auto-heighten each day doesn't feel very 'spontaneous'.

If the point about spontaneous casters is to have flexibility with how they cast their spells at a cost of spells known, then why limit them further by requiring them to spend precious spells known on redundant spells? This is one point where 5e did well: if you cast spell in a higher level spell slot, it gets heightened to that spell level, no questions asked.

[Ediwir]

See, that would be a change.
What I'm proposing is just a structural change - so that Sorcerers can be expanded in the future. If nothing else changes, this at least must, because it's the only way to keep Sorcerers in the loop when future books come out... Unless we start making Bloodlines that look totally the same except for one little difference. Which is what we're trying to avoid with the new system.

[Zman0]

I completely agree, force the Sorcerer's hand by requiring them to pick their bloodline powers. Why does my Dragon Sorcerer "have" to manifest its draconic traits? I would make them a feat chain though, so Dragon Breath requires Dragon Claws etc. If a character wants to go down that route, fine. If not, they aren't forced to.

[Shade325]

Voicing agreement as well.

[houser2112]

Pramxnim wrote:

I agree fully with the changes suggested here. Sorcerers only have 75% of the feats other spellcasters get (6 compared to 8) because their level 6 and 10 feats are locked behind their Bloodline powers.

This is especially bad because many perceive the bloodline powers to be rather lackluster.

Quote:

Spontaneous casters having to learn higher versions of their spells and only getting to choose 2 (or 4 spells with a feat) spells to auto-heighten each day doesn't feel very 'spontaneous'.

Only bards get Additional Heightening as a feat option. Sorcerers do not, and this is unacceptable.

Quote:

If the point about spontaneous casters is to have flexibility with how they cast their spells at a cost of spells known, then why limit them further by requiring them to spend precious spells known on redundant spells? This is one point where 5e did well: if you cast spell in a higher level spell slot, it gets heightened to that spell level, no questions asked.

The heightening rules build on a wizard's strength and on a sorcerer's weakness, and this is unacceptable too.

I agree that 5E's magic system (in general, not just the heightening rules) is a lot more elegant, and I'm rather shocked that Paizo didn't implement it across the board, seeing as how they published it first (in the Arcanist).

[vestris]

I would like to fully agree here too. It could open up several ways to build a sorcerer of any given bloodline, maybe with powers and maybe with physical alterations as well. As of now the Dragon Totem Barbarian feels more sorcerous than the sorcerer.

Especially for future splatbooks and customisation this would be a great change.

[Draco18s]

Barbarian totems: feats
Sorcerer bloodlines: auto-chosen

This needs to change.

[QuidEst]

I’d feel better if the powers were more useful, but there’s maybe one or two where I don’t miss having a feat instead.

[Xenocrat]

QuidEst wrote:

I’d feel better if the powers were more useful, but there’s maybe one or two where I don’t miss having a feat instead.

This is true even though the 4th and (especially) 8th level feat lists are pretty lackluster.

[dnoisette]

It's a great idea and I hope Paizo is paying attention here because this could really help the feat-starved Sorcerers come up with different character concepts so that all Sorcerers are not just the same...

[Shinigami02]

I will note that I doubt that the level 1 Power will be made a feat, simply because level 1 abilities being locked in based on subclass seems to be a recurring theme for casters (and to a lesser degree with Barbarians, though they still get the level 1 feat too since they don't have spells). You can see it in Wizard School, Bard Muse, Cleric Domain, and Druid Order, so I doubt it'll change for Sorcerer Bloodline. That said, I think the only reason the Sorc Bloodline does lock in the other powers is as an experiment, see how locked-in expansion works and how the community responds to it (so far negatively from what I've seen but yeah.)

ETA: For that matter, I think all the casters have a bit of an experiment going on. Wizard has the "you can only pick from this subclass but the expansions are feats", Cleric has "You can cross-sub, but only so many times", Druid has "You can cross-sub, but your original sub has benefits", and Bard has "You can freely cross-sub to your heart's content."

[Ediwir]

Shinigami02 wrote:

I will note that I doubt that the level 1 Power will be made a feat, simply because level 1 abilities being locked in based on subclass seems to be a recurring theme for casters (and to a lesser degree with Barbarians, though they still get the level 1 feat too since they don't have spells). You can see it in Wizard School, Bard Muse, Cleric Domain, and Druid Order, so I doubt it'll change for Sorcerer Bloodline. That said, I think the only reason the Sorc Bloodline does lock in the other powers is as an experiment, see how locked-in expansion works and how the community responds to it (so far negatively from what I've seen but yeah.)

ETA: For that matter, I think all the casters have a bit of an experiment going on. Wizard has the "you can only pick from this subclass but the expansions are feats", Cleric has "You can cross-sub, but only so many times", Druid has "You can cross-sub, but your original sub has benefits", and Bard has "You can freely cross-sub to your heart's content."

True, but not true.

Sorcerer already gets a fixed component in bloodline: his bonus spell list.

Wizard could gain new specialisations (such as Elementalist, or Prescience, or whatever). New Bloodlines would have different spell lists (and hoopefully feat choices, but not necessarily all the time, there could be an overlap)

[Evan Tarlton]

I would be down for this change. I don't so much mind the 1st level power remaining locked in as other caster classes have that as well, but the 6th and 10th level powers should definitely be choices one can make rather than just having them foisted on the player. The lack of feats compared to other casters is a big problem, since it makes the sorcerer feel feat-starved, and this is on top of other problems which can arise.

I'll use the Imperial bloodline as an example, since that's the one I would be most interested in playing. I like the spells, I like the skills, the flavor is good, and I like Ancestral Surge. It's a perfectly cool power, and I don't mind having it in place of a feat. I don't know if I'd choose it over some of the 1st level feats if I had the choice, but it's good enough that I don't resent the lack of choice. The other powers, however...

Metamagician's Shortcut is most lackluster as it strongly encourages me to use my 2nd and 4th level feats on metamagic. I either have to take feats that I don't want or get a power that I can't use. I know that I'd get extra spell points on top of it, and I can just use them to perform AS more, but two extra spell points is not worth a feat. It would be different if I wanted to focus on metamagic (I expect I'd be super happy with it were that the case), but there are too many 1st and especially 4th level feats I would rather pick.

Arcane Countermeasure isn't as bad, but it's not particularly exciting. It doesn't lock me into feat choice, which is good, but it isn't fully effective if the DM doesn't use spell heightening for NPCs. The defensive bonuses are good, and worth a feat, but it definitely isn't a feat I would choose if I had a choice.

[Siro]

Agreed with most people here. In PF1 Sorcerers were my 3rd favourite class behind Bard and Oracle. {hmm, just noticed they were all Cha based spontaneous casters) I do not think they did horrible with it in this edition in terms of flavour, as your bloodline not only gives you powers based on it, but your whole casting list {So a Sorcerer whom descended from dragons will play totally differently then one that got there powers in a ritual contract from entities beyond the gaze of the gods themselves.)

Echoing the ones that came before me, the main problem with this is you are locked into that decision, in terms of powers and spells. The powers take away feats for those level {and in certain cases require the use of more class feats to make them have any use}, limiting you in what choices you have. Gaining set spells have always been a thing in PF {one of the major and welcomed changes both in gameplay and roleplay from 3.5 to the class} however the way the magic works in this editions makes this become a problem {in certain cases devolving into problems from the previous edition.) For example if I took the Imperial bloodline, I would get 'Invisibility' as a second level spell. Later on, I want to get 'Invisibility' as a fourth level spell, {because he likes to blast things, but does not like to be seen while doing it}. Now my options are 1) doubling up on Invisibility, using up one of my known slots at 4th level {repeating the problems of having to know 'Invisibility' and 'Greater invisibility' in PF1) or 2) using 1 of my two spontaneous heightens to fix a problem within how the class works instead of empowering it.

I guess the point is, this edition embraces the idea of decision within class structures, but with the Sorcerer is tied down to its own bloodline from level 1.

[Kodyboy]

Sorcerers as written are terrible. In fact the pf2 playtest has made my group seriously look at 5th edition. I don't think that was paizos goal.

[Siro]

As for making all spells spontaneously heighten like in 5th, there are a couple of differences between the games you have to consider. Both editions, I believe, have tried to deal with the "Magic is the solution to everything", but they have done it in two separate ways.

PF2 from the looks of it, went the option of lowering the power of spells, with focusing on the more problematic ones. {in PF1, no need to trudge through the Dark Knights tower, past his well trained guards and monsters, and through his traps to save the local lord he kidnapped. Teleport in, Teleport out, {perhaps using Divination magic to see inside, and risking a mishap or two as you will get it eventually} unless yu start specially setting up "oh he also has anti-Teleport magic set up." which leads less to going through the tower and more, "ok, new plan is to disable the Anti-Teleport magic, then Teleport in, then Teleport out.". In the new ed, the Teleport in, Teleport out strategy first requires you to find the spell, then be at a higher level than in previous edition to be able to use it, and then having 10 mins to freely cast Teleport in the heart of the Dark Knights tower for the Teleport out part of the plan. This change, however made sure spell casters can keep casting spells without running out by mid day {with a bit of conservation, helped by cantrips.)

5th Edition {apologies if I do get something wrong, as I am not as familiar with it} still does have very powerful spells, especially at higher levels, with spells also being able to auto heighten from lower ones. However, the amount of times you can cast your higher level spells {and spells in general} is much lower then in PF2. For example a Sorcerer in 5th ed will have only have one 8th and one 9th level slot at Level 20, vs a PF2 that will have four at both spell levels at 20. You get a bit more powerful magic for the level {possibly even making it a bit easier solution to a problem} but at a much higher cost. Heightening a spell to a 9th level slot st a much higher resource for the 5th ed that would only be able to do it once at that slot, vs the PF2 character that would be able to do it 4 times, and it is in this the spontaneous heightening of all spells does not cause as much of a problem that it would in PF2 {it does not cost as big of a resource to heighten and your more likely to have the right spell slot for the spell for the job you need it to do, pushing it back to magic is always the solution in PF2, if this were the case.)

This does not mean I'm against heightening, or how they have implemented it. One of the best things I think this edition did was making all spell levels useful, as your DC for the spell isn't tied to it {another problem that spontaneous casters had, especially with Save or Suck spells.} and I think heightening in this way is a good compromise, you get a couple of spells that your very flexible, without having lesser casting for it. It just the problem in terms with the Sorcerers is they get criminally to few of these, made more so as a quarter of their known spells are pre chosen {meaning you don't have a good way of learning these at higher for the higher effects, without wasting a known slot for a spell already on your list or you spontaneous heighten.} I would give them more spontaneously heightening spells--2 at Level 3---1 more at level 5---and 1 more at level 7 at the very least {you get the same amount as the Bard, but without having to spend a Class Feat to get it.)

[Ediwir]

As of 1.3, this has been done.

Thank you <3

[Draco18s]

Ediwir wrote:

As of 1.3, this has been done.

Thank you <3

This is the fourth reminder I've had that there's new errata.

Thank you.