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For this thread I'd like to present an example of the 'hard to read' complaint I have about the playtest book. I'd like conversation to be about this topic on replies, or further examples that demonstrate issues that help the devs understand what you mean.
My first example:
Spell: Dispel Magic - my friend was in a playtest group - and they couldn't figure out how to dispel an item - he asked me if I could figure it out - I did (I think, but I still have questions) but I have complaints about the process:
The spell is located on Page 216. It says - see page 197.
Page 197 says: make a counteract check - see page 319
Page 319 says: a spell's counteract level is equal to it's spell level- and "see Table 9–3 (page 320) for the counteract levels of other
abilities."
Page 320 (mind you - a one page difference - but not in the same '2 page spread' - so you had to turn the page to see the table) - has a list of Ability or effect level with the counteract level to the right of it.
Now - based on the information given - it wasn't readily apparent what this table really was meant to convey. It wasn't until I noted that the 'counteract level' was limited to 10 levels (the same as spells) when the lightbulb went on and I realized that all 'counteract' abilities were tied to a 10 point system to match dispel magic - and so the table was meant to show the graduated DC for each level. Ok.
Questions that linger: You have to roll against the 'DC of the effect' - what is the DC for the effect? Is the DC the 'ability or effect level'?
I assume for a spell it's the DC of the spell? Do you add anything to your counteract check? If so there isn't any text that says you do - so if you are going off the DC of the spell then it will be *very* hard to actually overcome that DC off a flat d20 roll.
What is the DC for an item? I'm *assuming* the item's level.
Ok final point: To dispel an item I had to look at 4 different pages of the book - in 3 different *sections* - and I still have questions that were not answered in any of the sections about dispelling (that I could find).
Dispel Magic was complicated in Pathfinder - I have to read the spell every time I use it - this *seems* like it will be easier once I have it down - but the book didn't make it easy to figure out, and this is one example of 'having to flip all over the book' that people are talking about.
Thanks for reading my feedback.
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Second example:
Sorcerer Page 128: "Some of your spells require you to attempt a spell roll to see how effective they are, or have your enemies roll against your spell DC. Since your key ability is Charisma, your spell rolls and spell DCs use your Charisma modifier. See page 291 for details on calculating your spell rolls and spell DCs."
Going to Page 291 - the only place 'Spell Roll' is mentioned is in the chart that says you gain a proficiency bonus.
We *inferred* that the spell roll is Main Stat + Prof bonus + item (if any).
We were able to figure out that the DC calc worked for the spell DC - however it is my opinion that this information wasn't intuitive, and when you are sent to a place looking for a specific term (in this case 'spell roll') you expect to see that as a header or at least somewhere explained - instead the information is buried in a bunch of technical talk that all boils down to 'main stat' + 'training mod' + 'item' + 'other modifiers if needed' - any penalties
The fact that I was able to sum up the information in about 2 lines of text makes me feel like this entire section is messy and not well presented. I'm unsure what the reason for this was - but from a technical writing perspective it's messy and overly busy for the information that it's trying to convey. I see and understand (and actually applaud) that you are trying to make more things 'standard' - however the explanation is so dry and technical (because you are trying to use it generically) that it's not easy to intuit what we are looking for when we come from another section of the book.
In this case spell roll - it would more helpful - honestly - if you are going to keep the explanation technical - if perhaps you were to do this:
"Some of your spells require you to attempt a spell roll to see how effective they are, or have your enemies roll against your spell DC. Since your key ability is Charisma, your spell rolls and spell DCs use your Charisma modifier. See page 290 (Header: Checks) for details on calculating your spell rolls and page 291 (Header: Determine the Difficulty class) for spell DCs.
The formula is: Result of a roll = number on the die + ability modifier + proficiency modifier + circumstance bonus + conditional bonus + item bonus + circumstance penalty + conditional penalty + item penalty + untyped penalties"
Bolded for changes.
This gives a person:
- The location and header for the information on a further in depth writeup on the mechanic
- The separate sections they need to use for the different information
- The formula right there so they don't have to go all over the book if they don't need a 2 page trestese on why the formula exists and just want a reminder of what to use.
Spell: Dispel Magic - my friend was in a playtest group - and they couldn't figure out how to dispel an item - he asked me if I could figure it out - I did (I think, but I still have questions) but I have complaints about the process:OMG!
The layout of the rules is my second biggest issue with the playtest. I think dispelling is fairly straight forward, but figuring this out is not.
My interpretation is that you determine:
-The spell level of the item.
-The DC of the item.
-The spell level of dispel magic.
If spell level of dispel magic > spell level of magic item; then you automatically dispel it.
Easy.
If magic item level > spell level of dispel magic > magic item level -4; then you make your spell roll (1d20 + caster stat + proficiency (level + 0/1/2/3) + spell level of dispel magic - spell level of magic item) against DC.
Slightly complicated, but easy enough.
If spell level of dispel magic < spell level -4; then you fail at dispelling automatically.
Easy.
Example:
Level 4 dispel magic, level 8 sorcerer, cha 19, trained proficiency.
Level 5 magic item. DC 25.
Because the spell level of dispel magic is not higher than the magic item. You need to make a roll.
Spell roll is:
1d20 + caster stat + proficiency (level + 0/1/2/3) + spell level of dispel magic - spell level of magic item
1d20 + 4 + 8 + 4 - 5 = 1d20+11 against DC 25. So, you have 35% chance of dispelling.
Level 4 dispel magic, level 8 sorcerer, cha 19, trained proficiency.
Level 5 magic item. DC 25.Because the spell level of dispel magic is not higher than the magic item. You need to make a roll.
How do you get the DC of 25 for the item? Because Items go to level 20 I assumed you just use the item to determine the counteract level - if so then a level 5 item should be auto dispelled by a level 3 dispel magic (spell level 3 - uses the right side of the counteract table).
If the item was level 7 or higher - then I believe that the 'roll - 5' would apply to a 3rd level dispel magic - but what is the roll for that check?
The spell modifier for a level 5 caster is going to be a max of +9. That means a DC of anything higher than 29 is outside the ability to dispel - and only then on a 20 for the check (d20+9 - 5 = 24 max DC - but that still is just 'hope for a 20'). I don't think that's the intent - otherwise it would be always impossible to dispel anything higher than 1 degree of difficulty - and the rules allow for up to a -15 on the check!
I think the item level + 10 is the DC to dispel. This fits in with 'same level = auto succeed' and gives us a DC of 17 for that level 7 item. 1d20+9 - 5 = a roll of 13-20 = a dispel - that seems in line with 'one level higher than the wizard'.
The friend in question had his DM assign a DC of 29 to the item. They could only succeed on a 20. That seems really off to me - and I think it's broken if so.
All that said: The DC to dispel an item is *not* listed anywhere that I can find.