6 - Rise of New Thassilon (GM Reference)


Return of the Runelords

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Dryad Knotwood wrote:
Phntm888 wrote:
Bellona wrote:

I've skimmed the PDF and have a few questions.

There are two body slot items listed in the appendix: the Robes of Xin-Bakrakhan (powerful magic item) and the Scintillating Robes (major artefact), which belong to Alaznist and Sorshen respectively. However, I don't see these items mentioned in the NPC stat blocks. Are A. and S. wearing those robes, and do the stat blocks take into account all the robes' nifty powers?

I'm also curious about this. For Sorshen, it looks like the deflection bonus to AC and resistance bonus to saves are factored in, as well as the SR 30, but I don't think the stat boosts are factored in, which is fine, because even if they were, they wouldn't stack with the belt of physical perfection and the headband of mental superiority.

Alaznist appears to have the shield bonus to AC and the SR 24, but I don't think it says anything about her being immune to calm emotions.

It kind of looks like the bonuses are partially factored in, but weren't entirely factored in.

Actually as has been noted, the stat boosts for the mental stats are all there, the physical ones aren't

** spoiler omitted **

But even then, it's a large statblock, the editor's human, and the one encounter that Sorshen could be in, may not even have her if the PC's make the right (or wrong) choices.

James Jacobs addressed that on the previous page, and said it was an accidental typo - 14 was Sorshen's starting Strength, and it should be 25 total. I was working off that.

I know the one encounter she's in that it isn't important, but I'd like to satisfy my curiosity.


I was surprised when I saw Sorshen's Charisma was 40, considering that Nocticula's Charisma in WotR was the same, and I imagine her being more charismatic than Sorshen. Was this a reference to the fact that Nocticula effectively now has an infinite Charisma as a full deity?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hey, they just get along fabulously. ^^

Paizo Employee Creative Director

CrimsonVixen wrote:
I was surprised when I saw Sorshen's Charisma was 40, considering that Nocticula's Charisma in WotR was the same, and I imagine her being more charismatic than Sorshen. Was this a reference to the fact that Nocticula effectively now has an infinite Charisma as a full deity?

It's not a reference to that, but you can certainly take it that way, since now that she's a deity, Nocticula is beyond Charisma and any other rule that Sorshen and the rest have to follow and obey.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So come to think about it, does anyone have idea what happens if PCs defeat the rune giant before he can strike at Xin?

I mean, besides creating new timeline, they would still heal the wound since they prevent the siphoning, yeaaaah, what are ramifications if they happen to do that? Do they have to undo their own alteration of the events or does historically drastically change?

(I guess it could be one of those "Xin explosions happens anyway, but differently", but I think without the rune giant, he would have finished the thing that first runelords took advantage of him being distracted with)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Stopping Xin from being killed would damage the timeline just as badly and wouldn't count as repairing the wound; the PCs would have to go back again as if they'd failed.

Shadow Lodge

I just read through her stat block, and what's up with the Steward? She knows Tien & Minkaian? With that and her garb, is she a relative of Ameiko's?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
I just read through her stat block, and what's up with the Steward? She knows Tien & Minkaian? With that and her garb, is she a relative of Ameiko's?

She's not a relative of Ameiko's, no. But she was born and grew up in Minkai before she became the Steward. Her mysterious past is something that we might explore more in a future story.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
The whole reason Thassilon had a "gap" in its border there was precisely because they never managed to conquer Mierani back in the day.

Thinking about it more (and having actually bought and read the book), I wonder how strong Edasseril's hold over Mierani is. It's described like this:

Quote:
Edasseril is the smaller but more aggressive of the two regions. Initially, Belimarius's realm extends no further than Peridot Isle, but as she rebuilds her armies, she swiftly expands her holdings to include the Mierani Forest and declares rule over two of the relatively deserted Ironbound Islands: Antler Rock and Flintyreach. . . The few elves who dwell in the Mierani Forest oppose this part of Edasseril's expansion. . .

This reads to me like Belimarius landed forces in and either occupied or razed Arsmeril, and declared her sovereignty over the whole area, but that her actual authority doesn't extend into the interior, wherein a guerrilla campaign is being waged. So not too much different from how Mierani has been throughout the Age.

Shadow Lodge

Different, related question: where is New Eurythnia's southern frontier? As written, it hugs the "foothills of the Kodar Mountains," but that is quite vague.

Eurythnia's southern frontier in the west is actually well-defined by the geography. It hugs the water divide of the Red Mountains up to the Right of Niltak. This takes in the entire drainage basin of the Steam River and makes a whole bunch of sense. A portion of the Nolands along the coast is contested by New Edasseril, but put that aside.

Going east from the Rift of Niltak it becomes hard to avoid patchworking, where the realm is divided up into highland valleys and intervening mountain peaks. The frontier probably follows the northern edge of the Lurkwood until it intersects the water divide of the Stony Mountains. From there, I think it makes most geographic sense to have the frontier follow the water line of the Stony Mountains to the Storval Rise, then follow the Storval Rise to the Storval Deep, then follow the Kazaron River to the place where it jukes north, then a line east to the frontier of the Hold of Belkzen.

The problem with this geographical line is that it takes in the lands of several Shoanti Quahs, primarily the Shundar Quah. I'm not sure they'd mind the return of Thassilon that much, since they're described as "rever[ing] and dwell[ing] among the Thassilonian ruins on the Storval Plateau and western Belkzen," but it's a problem nevertheless.


Is Sorshen's backstory written out anywhere?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Come to think about it, if things go for certain time, you can encounter Thuskchoon while time traveling and killing it does heal the temporal wound successfully.

But Qlippoth Lord's rejunevation only works inside their sanctum so Thuskchoon would perma die in that scenario. Does that mean Thuskchoon did nothing of particularly note in 10,000 years so its death doesn't create new temporal wounds? :D

Runelord's backstories are written in Shattered Star's final volume I think? Returns only touches on backstory of Belimarius, it doesn't go through any of the other ones in detail.

That said I think Sorshen's backstory was even more ambigious than Xanderghul's and others iirc?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So while I still want to still know about Thuskchoon, I just noticed that random encounter merchant listhas expert 6/magus 18 character. So level 24 character.

That is only character I've ever seen in pathfinder that goes canonically over 20 levels so uh, yeah, is this a typo or what the heck? :D

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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CorvusMask wrote:

So while I still want to still know about Thuskchoon, I just noticed that random encounter merchant listhas expert 6/magus 18 character. So level 24 character.

That is only character I've ever seen in pathfinder that goes canonically over 20 levels so uh, yeah, is this a typo or what the heck? :D

Absolutely a typo. I'd say expert 2/magus 18 is more accurate... or might even suggest dropping the expert levels entirely.

Dark Archive

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Zapranoth wrote:
Is Sorshen's backstory written out anywhere?

I've been writing up a backstory for her for my own game, which I may put somewhere eventually. The basic story is that she was born into a wealthy Azlanti merchant family who were worshippers of Ulon (the Deity of Secrets from Ruins of Azlant). When the Veiled Masters came to exterminate the cult, Sorshen escaped and buddied up with Xin to acquire his protection.


Hello

At the end of the book, there are a text about blood engines of Eurythnia.

Are there other detailed information about this elsewhere ? Other books ?

Thanks for your future answer.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

There is a LITTLE more info about the blood engines in Curse of the Crimson Throne, but not much more. They may be something we explore some day in a future product, but for the moment their inclusion is mostly just an idea starter for GMs to use as they see fit.


I have 5 players and therefore, 5 Sihedron heroes in mind. Anyone got any ideas for an additional 'Heroic Role' for this chapter of the adventure?

Also on the Heroic Roles, it mentions that after the Sihedron Heroes have been split up and go off on their own, their roles can be changed. I don't understand the effect of this and how exactly the choices of bonuses work? Is it just assumed that the Sihedron Heroes grant all of the bonuses? Why is this presented as an option?

A few of my players have been excited about statting up one of the heroes as is suggested in the players guide, but after reading through all of the chapters. There is absolutely no point in statting up the hero and is kind of a bait-and-switch from the player's guide, hinting that the player will get the chance to play the Sihedron Hero when in fact they don't at all in the adventure path.


I'm not sure about what the benefit would be, but for a fifth Heroic Role, perhaps something involving Jorgenfist and the Therassic Library? Maybe a rune giant-led invasion ravaging the Shoanti tribes there?

As for how it works, I think the option is there in case either you don't have 4 Sihedron Heroes, or in case the PCs decide they want to bring one or more of the Sihedron Heroes with them.

As for statting up the heroes, see the 'Swapping Out PCs' sidebar on page 4. This allows for the PCs to retire their character from this adventure in favor of their old PC, or if their PC dies during the course of book 6, they can bring in their old PC as a replacement. Bringing in the old PC as a replacement also means that PC is unavailable to act in a Heroic Role, and the PCs lose the bonus granted.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Come to think about it, why IS Alaznist CR 24?

I mean CR 19 from 20 levels, +2 cr from pc wealth and stats, +2 from 4 mythic tiers, that would be CR 23. So what she gets the final +1 CR from?


Maybe there was originally something that increased Alaznist's CR by 1 they took off? Or someone thought that a Mythic Tier was worth more than just half a level in terms of CR?

I don't think it makes a huge difference in terms of the adventure - after all, it IS the final fight, and the PCs are supposed to already have hit level 20 by the time they get there.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Sometimes I give NPCs extra bumps to their CR simply because their numbers warrant the bump.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also mythic tiers were undervalued in their original calculation.

Scarab Sages

bah attempt to get code terms failed.

Anyway I hear that in this path the heroes at the end confront their enemy with the

Spoiler:
artifact obtained in the path about the Atzlant kings attempt to return. Does it explain how they get ahold of it as well
or am I misinformed?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Senko wrote:

bah attempt to get code terms failed.

Anyway I hear that in this path the heroes at the end confront their enemy with the ** spoiler omitted ** or am I misinformed?

You meet the old PCs in this book :P

Scarab Sages

ah thanks I'll buy it sometime just no time these days.

Liberty's Edge

Why couldn't a player use mage's disjunction to sever the conduits in D2 Cataclysm Refocused?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ygir Stoneheart wrote:
Why couldn't a player use mage's disjunction to sever the conduits in D2 Cataclysm Refocused?

Since mage's disjunction is basically a more powerful dispel magic (which is the assumption, since that spell is MUCH more readily available and commonly used), there's no reason that wouldn't work.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The answer to the question: Can 5 Level 18/MR3 characters defeat a CR30 Great old one... is yes. Yes they can.

That is all.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

O_o Well uh, i guess they were pretty optimized?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
O_o Well uh, i guess they were pretty optimized?

You could say that.

Only the Barbarian and the Bard could actually hit it on anything other than a 20, but with all the buffs up (Bloodrage, Furious weapon, Bard song, +3 Chaotic Outsider Bane to weapon from the party occultist) I think he was hitting on a 9+. Both the Bloodrager and occultist were immune to Temporal stasis (his melee rider). I put about 150 points of damage into the occultist (whose MR are in Defender, so wasn't a guarenteed hit) and dropped the bloodrager to around 30 HP left before they dropped Tawil. In two rounds.

The only one to fall victim to the Microcosm Aura was the wizard.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Geez ._.;

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Here's hoping Tawil at'Umr felt magnanimous toward those violent PCs and didn't use his immortality to reappear immediately to continue the fight fresh on the very next round! :-P

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Here's hoping Tawil at'Umr felt magnanimous toward those violent PCs and didn't use his immortality to reappear immediately to continue the fight fresh on the very next round! :-P

To be fair, its tactics say that once defeated, Tawil at'Umr reappears instantly and notes that its defeat has open path for PCs without sacrifice before vanishing again.

I'm not sure if that counts as impressing Great Old One, but as its morale says, "The Great Old One does not hold grudges, and its greatest reward for those capable of defeating it once is to allow them to proceed without further harm."

I'm honestly just as surprised writer included option for what happens if Great Old One was actually defeated :D

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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CorvusMask wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Here's hoping Tawil at'Umr felt magnanimous toward those violent PCs and didn't use his immortality to reappear immediately to continue the fight fresh on the very next round! :-P

To be fair, its tactics say that once defeated, Tawil at'Umr reappears instantly and notes that its defeat has open path for PCs without sacrifice before vanishing again.

I'm not sure if that counts as impressing Great Old One, but as its morale says, "The Great Old One does not hold grudges, and its greatest reward for those capable of defeating it once is to allow them to proceed without further harm."

I'm honestly just as surprised writer included option for what happens if Great Old One was actually defeated :D

We included that option specifically because I suspected that some groups would want to go this route. And if a GM allowed the group to become mythic, which is an option.

Frankly, all snark aside, it kinda sounds like the group of 5 level 18/MR 3 characters fared about as well as they perhaps should have in the fight. They succeeded, but it wasn't a cakewalk.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, come on. If it has stats, they will kill it. That's basically rule number two of D20 roleplaying games (rule number one of course being "Don't piss off your GM too much" :p). Developers recognizing that fact and writing accordingly is just smart work.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh definitely. It went over very well. I let them all know before they chose to fight that they felt Pharasma pull her boon back temporarily for the fight (she wasn't getting involved with that) and that if they died their character was gone forever. )I removed the part in the adventure about players being able to come back after the sacrifice). The players went in with full knowledge of the consequences, and if they hadn't defeated him in that round, the bloodrager, and probably the bard would have had to switch to their sidhedron hero characters.

I the part about his death Leaving a scar on the ground in the same manner as Alaznists wounds really gave them pause and made them wonder if they made the right choice


Is there a list anywhere of what the locations are illustrated by icons on the beautiful map of Thassilon in this volume? I know some are new, but many of them must be known, or named, at least.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Callum wrote:
Is there a list anywhere of what the locations are illustrated by icons on the beautiful map of Thassilon in this volume? I know some are new, but many of them must be known, or named, at least.

Nope. That list was gathered from all the locations I could find that we've ever mentioned over the course of everything we've done. Many of them were name dropped only once in the very first printing of "Burnt Offerings" for Rise of the Runelords, in fact, and I had to decide based on the name's "mouth feel" and where we hadn't put anything else where the location would go. And I think a few of the locations I made up brand new for the spot.

So... the only place that really has a complete list of all of the locations on that map is the map itself.

At this time... that is...

Liberty's Edge

Excuse me, maybe I'm missing something, but how those the time wounds affect the accidental clones players? Do they still look like Sorshen?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why wouldn't they? The adventure explains that the PC's are able to withstand the effects of Alaznist's manipulations (except some alterations in their memories), which is why the Herald visits them from time to time.


Even then, I don't know if it's necessarily alterations to their memories, so much as their memories being of what happened before Alaznist started meddling with the timeline. That's how I viewed the penalty to history checks - they remembered what actually happened, but that was no longer accurate because of Alaznist's actions.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Phntm888 wrote:
Even then, I don't know if it's necessarily alterations to their memories, so much as their memories being of what happened before Alaznist started meddling with the timeline. That's how I viewed the penalty to history checks - they remembered what actually happened, but that was no longer accurate because of Alaznist's actions.

This is spot on. The PCs are in large part immune to having their memories and legacies being changed by the time wounds; that's a big thematic part of why these particular PCs are the ones on this adventure and not others. What they remember remains true and accurate; it's how the rest of the world's history altered that causes the penalties.

Likewise, it wouldn't adjust their appearances. Even if Alaznist had, for example, helped the orcs win the Quest for Sky and killed off all the dwarves, a dwarf PC would remain (although would be disturbed by the fact that an increasing number of people don't know what they are).

Liberty's Edge

One more question. The party has reached Karzoug's soul. They destroyed the skull in front of him to convince him to help them with the ritual and they seemed quite sympathetic with what he went through with Zinlun. I believe they will free his soul, but, the thing is... they didn't destroy the fresh clone back with Zinlun. The just retrieved the treasure, gold, skull and left. If they release him now, his soul should theoretically go and wake the clone just like Zinlun originally hoped, right? He was wondering why the clone wasn't activating if Karzoug was already dead...

I had described the clone was shackled/gagged/bound to avoid spellcasting when he returned.

So I'm wondering if he would actually have any chance of escaping his shackles and the tomb with some of the spells he had when he died. I don't see any still/silent spells feats. Any ideas on how he could escape?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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That's up to you, but letting his soul go into the clone is a pretty neat plot twist, I think. After all he's gone though, I could see this being a point where Karzoug decides to turn over a new leaf, but also, this could set up a compelling new villain for your the next game you run! In that case, how he escapes is left to you to decide; don't let rules get in the way of an NPC in a case like this setting up for a cool role in an upcoming campaign—whether he's the bad guy or a redeemed ally.

Liberty's Edge

I'll likely do that! They have realized things are gearing up towards the "finale" but were wondering what will they do afterwards. Maybe he won't be much of a "villain" anymore, but with Sorshen moving to Xin Xalast when this is over, he's not going to be very happy about that. xD

Liberty's Edge

Oh! Wait! I see what he can do to escape the binds and the lair. Change Shape and Telekinetic Fist are spell-like abilities. That should let him get out of there too.


Hello! My party is finishing healing the time wounds. I'm preparing for what comes next, but I'm having a bit of trouble for after the finale on how to handle the timelines.

The party took more than a few weeks when they returned from Xin-Edasseril to get themselves equipped in Absalom and investigate Zinlun. Afterwards they also took a couple of weeks before they went to the Astral plane to talk with Karzoug and then just before the Cyphergate to "get things in order". They even went on some small but important side quests and made some personal deals with people around Varisia and outside of it. They were even evacuating people/friends/family from Riddleport.

When they return and the timeline is fixed... no one will remember anything at all? Other than the party themselves? Even Sorshen wouldn't notice?

I was going to tell them that people killed and things destroyed by Alaznist would pop back where they were as if nothing happened and don't remember anything, but the rest of people around would remember there events. Things just returned to normal suddenly. They would have experienced "lost time".

The party invested a lot of time and resources on helping people around and I would hate to tell them it never happened.

Liberty's Edge

Hey! It's been a while! My party defeated Alaznist and convinced Belimarius to "not waste her time and resources with the elves on the Mierani Forest" and rather work on her influence by trading with the southern cities.

They now want to seek the rest of the Sword of Sins (other than Envy and Lust) and are looking for any other way to avoid the swords' dominance (example: item with continuous protection from evil) as they only have one pair of gauntlets for Baraket. They actually don't need it for Baraket itself. The sword recognized her new wielder as it's rightful owner after defeating Xandergul, but they would certainly like to be prepared as their Will saves SUCK.

The party is besties with Sorshen, have a business relationship with Belimarius... and Karzoug is alive, changed his ways and has become their ally. He remains hidden from the other Runelords, but especially from Belimarius. He knows she will try to hunt him down after his little "joke" with the Crystilan if she learns he's alive.

Ironically, last session, the party needed to move closer to where Xin-Cyrusian used to be to start looking for the remnants of the Castle of the Green Feather (thanks for the tip, Baraket!) and the closest reference on the map was Rimeskull. They asked Sorshen if she knew that place to help them get there with a teleport so now they know the entrance to the Runeforge... and they technically have one of the highest Caster Level crafters currently in Varisia as an ally. So that got me thinking...

Could Karzoug technically craft a new set of Gauntlets (or an equivalent) if he had access to the Runeforge? It's going to cost a fortune but the players are LOADED and willing to pay.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
soulnova wrote:


Could Karzoug technically craft a new set of Gauntlets (or an equivalent) if he had access to the Runeforge? It's going to cost a fortune but the players are LOADED and willing to pay.

I mean, I'm not looking at any books here, but isn't magical crafting just a question of spending enough time and money? Karzoug and Runeforge and an item to mimic seem very doable, just make the players jump through hoops as you see fit, or put something at risk by waiting long enough for the crafting :)

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