I think I understand the mechanics, but I can't understand what this means in terms of the action the character is talking. What is s/he doing?
I don't have the PDF in front of me. What does it say again?
Think of it as the character tugging at an opponent with their free hand to throw them off balance. The fighter doesn't get a super solid grip, so they don't lock the opponent in place, but they still manage to interfere with the opponent's ability to defend themselves (it applies flatfooted).
Grab onto someone with one hand. Smack them with the other.
This is super confusing and seems to be missing details. So you need to have a hand free - does that mean the combat grab uses your free hand? If so, specify that you make an unarmed strike. Presumably, you’re actually grabbing your foe with your free hand - if so, then indicate that and that your hand is no longer free afterwards until combat grab ends. It should also indicate that if you’re unconscious etc, the flat-footed effect ends - if you’re no longer holding on, then you shouldn’t impose a penalty to the enemy.
In addition, the enhancement and the failure effect seem identical. Super confusing. Just print the effect once and indicate that as long as you don’t critically fail it works. Also, the failure contradicts the general enhancement rule that it only works if you deal damage - so why not make it not an enhancement in the first place? Seems weird that you could miss and apply the effect, but if you hit and fail to penetrate damage reduction it doesn’t actually work.
For improved combat grab, if they break the grapple they remain flat footed for how long? Until out of melee reach means they’ll stay flat footed forever if they don’t move away. Should be limited to 1 round unless they move out of melee reach before that.
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What's even kookier is that it seems to work with reach weapons. Currently, only two are one-handed; of them, the whip makes sense in a way that isn't really supported by the skill name/description/attributes, and RAW a gnome flickmace works as well. What?
perception check wrote: What's even kookier is that it seems to work with reach weapons … the whip (…and…) gnome flickmace Very good reasons, as well, for these weapons to be considered ranged instead of melee (flickmace both?). You can't use a whip 5' away, and neither can 'threaten' at distance the way a polearm can (a readied action could work though).
And yes, I agree that the one-handed thing is strange and uneccessarily limiting. A weapon that can trip should qualify as well. In either case, that tool (free hand or tripping weapon) should be 'busy' maintaining the effect until you release, or the end of your next turn.
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JoelF847 wrote:
In addition, the enhancement and the failure effect seem identical. Super confusing. Just print the effect once and indicate that as long as you don’t critically fail it works. Also, the failure contradicts the general enhancement rule that it only works if you deal damage - so why not make it not an enhancement in the first place? Seems weird that you could miss and apply the effect, but if you hit and fail to penetrate damage reduction it doesn’t actually work.
Enhancement: ...until the end of your next turn.
Failure: ...until the start of your next turn.
It's a difference of duration.
As to the feat in general, as a martial artist (Wado Karate specifically) I can tell you that the idea of striking or even striking at a foe to distract them momentarily so you can get a hold on them to off-balance (Like Combat Grab) or off-balance and restrain (Like Improved Combat Grab) them is actually a pretty common principle. And it having some effect even on a failure makes sense as well, if you attack someone but miss and know what you're doing you can often still use the effort they put into avoiding or blocking you as distraction enough to get them off-balance. Like it's hard to do spontaneously but if you attack them with the intent of getting a hold on them whether you hit or miss that might be different. Obviously it doesn't work exactly like IRL but the principle is there.
And I know there's one blatant difference between martial arts and weapon fighting, but this principle can be applied to an axe swing or sword thrust about as well as to a punch, I would expect. A lot of unarmed fighting principles can actually be transferred to fighting with a one handed weapon in some degree.
I dont't think normal combat grab blocks the free hand you use it with.
I imagine it as tugging your opponent so that they lose balance.
Advanced combat grab is another thing. It says you grab the opponent and as far as I recall "grabbed" states that you can't use the limb you use for grabbing until released.
I see it as your character is using the opening created from his first strike and the Combat Grab strike to use his free hand to shove, tug or otherwise interfere with the opponent. Your hand still staying a free hand. If the opponent leaves the reach it stabilize it self and is therefore not flat-footed anymore.
It makes no sense for this to work with reach weapon, since your free-hand should be in reach of target in my understanding (and I think the feat should clarify that the target needs to be within reach of the free hand).
JoelF847 said wrote: It should also indicate that if you’re unconscious etc, the flat-footed effect ends - if you’re no longer holding on, then you shouldn’t impose a penalty to the enemy.
In addition, the enhancement and the failure effect seem identical. Super confusing. Just print the effect once and indicate that as long as you don’t critically fail it works. Also, the failure contradicts the general enhancement rule that it only works if you deal damage - so why not make it not an enhancement in the first place? Seems weird that you could miss and apply the effect, but if you hit and fail to penetrate damage reduction it doesn’t actually work.
If your unconscious I don't think you have reach anymore (or at least that would make sense) which would automatically end the effect.
There is different durations on the effects as Edge93 mentioned. Regarding the enhancement I agree it's a weird scenario if you hit but deal no damage. They should add in a clause so effects like this still work.
JoelF847 said wrote: For improved combat grab, if they break the grapple they remain flat footed for how long? Until out of melee reach means they’ll stay flat footed forever if they don’t move away. Should be limited to 1 round unless they move out of melee reach before that. It does seem that they are flat-footed forever. I think that is fine though, symbolizing you have gotten the upper hand in the fight keeping them off-balance until they get away from you stabilizing. (Maybe allowing the target the chance to spend an action to remove flat-footed would be reasonable)
What's hard to grasp? Watch these pro-level martial artists for a very Combat Grab-centric demo (NSFW):
Combat Grab video
Now imagine one of the combatants is a dragon.
I guess the explicit question I have is:
-Does Combat Grab shut off Dueling Parry
-If not, does Improved Combat Grab shut off Dueling Parry.
We've been playing with "no" to both on the reasoning that "PF2 is supposed to be simpler."
The DM of wrote: (NSFW) That was not what I imagined based on this flag.
What I imagined, plus, "with a dragon" was far, far more amusing and got banned from Tumblr.
Uh oh, that's not the dragon and the Volkswagen, is it? That's a different kind of combat grab.
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