Optimization tools and tricks for assorted classes


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Xelaaredn wrote:
shroudb wrote:


you can with Quick though. Either through Haste, potion of speed, Speed weapon or even your capstone

double slice 0/0
strike 0/0/-4
flurry 0/0/-4/-8/-8

You realize this is a completely different situation than what I was calling out as an attempt to cheese the rules as the person I replied to was attempting to do right?

That all you really did was mesh what s/he thought would work with the fact of needing to add in a standalone strike to increase the penalty to use two-weapon flurry as I said in my follow-up post?

Yes, there is definitely cheese to find, especially when adding in magical effects. Congratulations on finding it? *pats head slowly and unsurely*

not sure why you're so upset.

i just replied that the feat has it's place.

btw, when Quick is your gd capstone, I would hardly call it "cheese". Probably call it "intended".

plus, Haste used to be the king of spells, and Haste(5th) is still really good for martial heavy parties.

more importantly, it opens up all other 1 action press to be done with -4 instead of -8.

So don't think that this particular thing won't see play.

As for whatever gripe you had with the guy you quoted, I don't give a s%%!, I was just replying that the feat seems fine, it's opens up quite a few press moves and it's a +4 to 1 attack in one of the most powerful martial rotations.

but *patpat* you are a good edgelord, gz.


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shroudb wrote:


not sure why you're so upset.

i just replied that the feat has it's place.

btw, when Quick is your gd capstone, I would hardly call it "cheese". Probably call it "intended".

plus, Haste used to be the king of spells, and Haste(5th) is still really good for martial heavy parties.

more importantly, it opens up all other 1 action press to be done with -4 instead of -8.

So don't think that this particular thing won't see play.

As for whatever gripe you had with the guy you quoted, I don't give a s!&!, I was just replying that the feat seems fine, it's opens up quite a few press moves and it's a +4 to 1 attack in one of the most powerful martial rotations.

but *patpat* you are a good edgelord, gz.

First off, my "gripe" with the person I first replied to was a fairly simple one. I have had many players trying to use the way they are reading the rules to work in their favor. The guy was on here, in a thread about optimization, spreading false information.

I have no problem with 4 or even 5 attacks in a round, especially if we are talking from magical effects (that's been a thing for ages). I also never said the feat doesn't have it's place, just that it takes a fair amount of work to make it relevant, or not using agile weapons which I view as a shame.

I am going to continue calling it cheese because that's what most people who theory craft out to level 20 are really searching for, especially in an optimization thread. For example, assuming that Weapon Supremacy will be taken over Reactionary.

Now, if we really want to continue this conversation and assume an optimized fighter using two agile weapons and every class feat that helps that along. Taking Agile Grace, busts the build up to two-weapon flurry.

Double Slice 0/0
Strike from Quick -3
Can't use Two-weapon Flurry because we became "too optimized" sitting at a -6

Hence my comment about the agile weapons, two weapon fighting and taking all the things that make you better at doing so not actually meshing well together. IF you took personal offence to anything I said other than the, honestly purposefully condescending head pat, that's completely on you.


A Bard with the Wizard archetype and the Magical Striker feat (which requires a hefty three feat investment) can chain together Inspire Courage (1 action cantrip) -> Inspire Heroics (free action power/spell that is not a cantrip) -> Magical Striker (free action triggering off your free action spell) -> Strike -> [Final Action]

Makes that Inspire Heroics attempt worth it even if you fail the Performance check to boost your bonus. On a crit success Performance check you get a personal +4 to attack, +3 to damage, and extra weapon die out of this. At the very least you get a +2 to attack, +1 to damage, and bonus weapon die.


For a single classed Wizard or Sorcerer wanting to engage in melee a Staff of Divination isn't a terrible weapon choice (suitable enhanced) as it can hold depending on its level 2, 6, or 9 charges of True Strike to use with Magical Striker (albeit at a cost of 1RP per use...), the two handed d8 damage isn't terrible, and you can use a magical staff to make Somatic Components for all your spells. As long as you have Eschew Materials there's no reason to ever take a hand off during combat.


Alchemist tip. Don't bother trying to do direct damage with bombs.

Focus on the statis effects or persistent damage. That works far better. Bombs are your spice, not your meat and veges. Acid Flasks, Bottled lightning, Tanglefoot bags, ice flasks are your tools. These all give effects or persistent damage with a good DC to defeat. and infact, are the only bombs potentially worth crafting during downtime, as you're going for the effects not the dice so you dont' care about empowerd bobms

Alchemist's Fire is a bit of a joke on persistent damage, the damage dice is nice, but you will never have enough to use with any consistency. and the persistent damage, is the easiest persistent damage to remove, with one action without a DC. It isn't worth the extreme limited resources you have.

Choose your targets very well. Aim for casters, or heavy bruisers early and slow them down, or start the damage rolling on them.

Build for supporting other players, you are not a damage dealer.
If you build for support (such as assist action) you can have a useful place in the group and pretty amusing points.

I have one, that feels useful (though still weak) that uses fighter's dedication + ranged assistance fighter's feat to support from a bit of distance.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zwordsman wrote:

Alchemist tip. Don't bother trying to do direct damage with bombs.

Focus on the statis effects or persistent damage. That works far better.

Sorry to inform but I'm pretty sure it has been stated that the persistent damage activates only on your primary target if you succeed. I'm on my phone right now and can't search for the clarification unfortunately.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

How to automatically succeed disabling trap lvl1-4 then 7-13:

As a rogue, select at level 1 the following feats: Assurance and trapfinder. You can now use assurance to disable traps with a DC20 in thievery.

If you increased your thievery skill to master at level 7, you now auto succeed disabling every trap with a DC equal to or lower than 30, meaning you're good to go until level 14.

Edit: this honestly makes disabling traps a joke for more than half of a rogue's career.


Darkorin wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

Alchemist tip. Don't bother trying to do direct damage with bombs.

Focus on the statis effects or persistent damage. That works far better.

Sorry to inform but I'm pretty sure it has been stated that the persistent damage activates only on your primary target if you succeed. I'm on my phone right now and can't search for the clarification unfortunately.

succed on what..? hitting with the acid flask? Of course it only causes damage on hit.. (and only on the main target)

I think I'm misunderstanding you.

I'm saying due to battle lengths, persistent damaage is far better for your action economy-cost of RP ratio as an Alchemist. Any one instance of damage is far less useful than the repeting damage.

Either the damage keeps rolling on them, or, they and others, spend actions to remove the damage. Which can take quite a few depending on their luck. All of which help your team win the match.
That is why I suggested it on the caster, or the heavy, and not the small fry. Those are the two you want to build damage on or make them waste their time trying to fix it. Which is why I stated taht Alch Fire aren't that useful IMO, because it is one action with no roll to remove, compared to Acid, or Bleed which has a fairly difficult roll. (excluding full heals, or water, which also eats their resources/actions)

Simply put. Alchemists in P2 are not damage dealers, they are more effect support characters.

Enough so, that I'm suggesting that they have a class feat to allow Snare creation via their Adv Alchemy ability because that toolbox suites what the place they're in currently quite well


Xenocrat wrote:

For a single classed Wizard or Sorcerer wanting to engage in melee a Staff of Divination isn't a terrible weapon choice (suitable enhanced) as it can hold depending on its level 2, 6, or 9 charges of True Strike to use with Magical Striker (albeit at a cost of 1RP per use...), the two handed d8 damage isn't terrible, and you can use a magical staff to make Somatic Components for all your spells. As long as you have Eschew Materials there's no reason to ever take a hand off during combat.

I actually ran some numbers on this and at 8th level (19 Int, 18 Dex) if you take a +2 lesser Staff of Divination (760 gp) and cleric archetype to get Deadly Simplicity (Nethys) for a boost to your staff damage you're actually only doing 4d10+4 (avg 26) +15 ranged attack bonus with Magical Striker and Hand of the Apprentice throws vs. 3d10+4 (avg 20.5) +13 ranged attack bonus with Telekinetic Projectile and a +1 lesser Spell Duelist's Wand (500 gp).

Since you can only do Hand of the Apprentice four times and +15 is still a 50% hit (5% crit) chance against equal level opponents this probably isn't worth the extra gold and especially feat investment. At extreme levels and wealth you might be able to retrain and buy this into a better gimmick once you're putting a Heroism (8th) and haste on yourself.


Touch of Idiocy at 2nd level is a great no save debuff that among other things inflicts a -2 to the target's will save for two minutes. It's more powerful than Feeblemind if you think they're going to make their save.

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