Regarding Organization

[JRutterbush]

So one thing I'm having an issue with is the way certain things in the Playtest book are organized, namely powers and skill feats.

Generally speaking, if I'm going looking for a spell or a power, that's all I'm looking for: I'm either looking for the mechanics of a power that my class is giving me, or I'm looking through my available spells in order to see what I can prepare or learn. There is no reason for spells and powers to share the same section of the book. Ideally, I'd rather see each class have its own powers section to make it easy to find the power I'm looking for (with a line referencing the spells section for the rules on how they work, since they work like spells), but I'd at least settle for powers and spells having their own unique sections, then having powers be divided by class in their own section. As far as I can tell, powers are unique to each class, so there's no reason they should be all mixed together, and especially not mixed together with the spells as well.

As for skill feats, it's the same thing: when I go looking for a skill feat, I don't want to have to go look through the entire list of skill feats. If I'm looking to take a new skill feat, for example, I'm far more likely to want to choose a skill to be awesome at, and then pick a skill feat from that skill's list. And if, for example, I remember that there's a skill feat that does something cool, but I don't remember the name of it, it would be much easier to just go to the appropriate skill's section and find the skill feat there, rather than having to read through the whole list again finding the one I want. Skill feats that require a skill should each be listed at the end of their respective skill's description, and skill feats that don't should have their own section before the general feats section (again, with a line reminding players that they can still be chosen as general feats).

Also, one final little nitpick that doesn't really deserve its own thread, but it's a general feat and I just mentioned general feats, so I'll put it here: Ancestral Paragon allows you to choose an ancestry feat of your level -1, but that limitation doesn't matter, and it specifically messes things up for humans. There are no ancestry feats with a level requirement that's equal to that of a general feat, since they're awarded at different levels, so you're always going to be forced to choose an ancestry feat of a lower level anyway, since those are the only ones you'd qualify for. Unless, of course, you're a human, who has the ability to choose a general feat at 1st level... which means that if you choose Ancestral Paragon, you gain the ability to choose a level 0 ancestry feat. That obviously doesn't work. Of course, experienced players will just say "Don't pick that feat at first level.", but since the limitation doesn't matter anyway (as mentioned above), it would make far more sense to just have it be a level 3 general feat and let you take any ancestry feat that you qualify for.

[Excaliburproxy]

+1 for spell/power consideration sure.

Things like ki strike and inspire courage being in the spell section makes 0 sense to me and is very frustrating.

For another thing: would it kill Paizo to tell us what spells are on what spell list in the spell description? I just want to read through all the spells and see what is good without checking through all the spell lists at the beginning of the chapter.

I don't mind skill feats being in the "feats" section but I do think that the chart there wants desperately for feat descriptions.

[JRutterbush]

Actually, now that I think of it, I'd also like to see Cantrips get their own section. Just to make it even easier to find exactly what I'm looking for.

[Gabby the Ferocious]

In addition to what they’re saying, feats are listed by level in Skill Feats and General Feats, but then they’re out of that order when you’re looking at them, going back to alphabetical order. Meanwhile, class feats are separated by class, and they’re listed in the order that you can take them. You had a good order to list them in, then you went out of that order to put the specifics down. In the same vein, Ancestry Feats are also not in order of the level you can take it in, but also alphabetical. That’s less of a problem with so few of them right now though.

Very related to this problem with Feats is Alchemical Items, which are not listed anywhere in level order from what I can tell. And they probably should be since they’re the Alchemist’s not-spell-list. If you can’t put them in order of level, at least a list similar to the way spells are arranged. As is, you have to look at the description of each to see it’s level, and make note of the ones the Alchemist has access to. As opposed to having a list that more clearly shows that like spellcasters have.

And finally, I’d like to make my own thoughts know on Spells and Power organization. I mostly agree with JRutterbush. Though I’d put the text for the power IN the Class Feat that gives it. Or at the very least, directly after the rest of the class. Organized by level you can get them. Of course. If a cantrip is class exclusive, I’d like largely the same. While I understand that powers ARE spells, putting them with the spells and away from the class that gives them is just not great for people making their character. It’s a lot of back and forth that could have been fixed by having the description for the powers inside the Class Feat.

For any given class power, which appear to all be completely new things that most players won’t have had before, they have no way to know what abilities they’re looking at. Take for example the Wizard. The Wizard has 9 different Class Feats that essentially read “You gain the ‘Power you know nothing about’. It costs this many spell points. You gain this many.” And to know at all what any of those feats actually do, you have to find the corresponding spell where it is in the larger list. Admittedly, you listed the page number, but again, it’s a lot of needless back and forth. It should probably be considered that the Power’s description is in fact part of the Class Feat.

So. Conclusion. While we went the right direction with organization on Class Feats, and it’s easier than ever to pick an appropriate ability for your class, that organization was not used elsewhere. And it’s still not easy to pick General/Skill Feats or Alchemical Items. And even where it is used, in some cases it means little to the player because the full text of the ability isn’t displayed there. It’s just little fixes to organization that could make people’s experiences better.

[Tunewalker]

I actually also wish they would just put the spell lists for each of the primary classes at the end of their class section and just have the sorcerer reference the end of those class pages for theirs.

It is honestly a chore to go back and forth between the spell list and spell descriptions to find what spells you need when the spell list is in class, Lvl, Alphabetical order and the Spell description list contains both spells and powers and is entirely alphabetical.

It is an annoyance that has carried over from pretty much every D20 game and I just dont understand that if you are going to have spell lists by class pretty much why you do not just put those spell descriptions with the class.

Kind of like this.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1odoss3akhpJrpXnzw1Kzhwqth51YIFhT/view

Putting something like this in the bard section of the book and the relevant spell list after each of the classes organized like this makes it much more intuitive for some one trying to level up. Not saying this format is perfect as I prefer the formatting for the spell list portion to this.

Also in the spell list portion it would help tremendously if you put not only which spells could be heightened but also what level they can be heightened to next to them since spontaneous casters have to know a spell at that level to cast it at that level knowing which of the lower level spells might be relevant to know at a new level at a glance on the spell list would save a tremendous amount of time looking up old spells that may or may not heighten to the level you are currently at.

[JoelF847]

I've got several organization things I'd like changes.

Agree that powers shouldn't be mixed in with spells - they should be in the appropriate class for ease of references.

In addition, spells should indicate which list they're on, and have their stat block show what saving throw they use. Having to cross reference to see who can actually cast a spell is unnecessary. Having to hunt through the text to see if a spell uses Fort, Ref and Will isn't needed either.

In addition, the chapter order of the book isn't terribly useful for reading. I'd much rather the playing the game section be right after equipment, and before spells.

Finally, there's a ton of information in the game mastering section which overlaps playing the game, and has critical information which isn't in playing the game. Put all the rules for playing the game topics in that chapter, and save game mastering for new topics, like environment, rewards, etc. But modes of play should be in playing the game, as well as most if not all of difficulty classes.

[JoelF847]

Also, I'd prefer to have the non-magical equipment in the magic item chapter go back to the equipment chapter - i.e. special materials and alchemy items. Having them appear in the treasure tables is fine, but the rules for them should be with the rest of the non-magic stuff.