Technomancer Archetype Alternate Features (Level 2)

[Gronnigan Conroy]

Please clarify this rule:

Quote:

You don't gain the magic hack class feature at 2nd level. Instead you gain it at 5th level.

Do you completely lose the 2nd level magic hack, or do you gain TWO magic hacks at 5th level?

For every other instance of the word "instead" in the Technomancer alternative features, you get the trait later and then it specifies something else that you lose (at 6th level the cache capacitor is delayed until 8th and you lose a magic hack, and at 9th your Techlore doesn't go up until 11th level and you lose the 11th level magic hack).

This implies that you indeed pick up two magic hacks at 5th level, because it doesn't say that you lose that feature.

Or is there something with the specific wording of "magic hack class feature" that means something different than just "magic hack?"

For every other instance of losing a selectable class ability in that section, it just says, "you don't gain an [operative exploit, stellar revelation, bonus combat feat, envoy improvisation]." It doesn't say "you don't gain the [x] class feature," nor does it say that you "instead" gain the feature at a higher level, though for several at level 9 it says that they instead gain the power at a higher level and lose something else.

I'm of the opinion that magic hacks are not the equivalent of those other traits, because you only get them every three levels instead of every two levels like the others. Making a technomancer lose their first hack completely seems like a bit of an extreme cost for a level 2 archetype ability that is likely not worth what is lost.

Regardless, the language needs to be clearer.

[BretI]

You lose the Class Feature (do not have that feature and therefore can not use anything dependent on it) at second level, gaining it at 5th level instead.

So at 2nd level you have no Magical Hacks nor access to the class feature.

At 5th level, you gain the class feature (allowing you to take things dependent on having that class feature) and a single magical hack.

I read it through several times and this is the interpretation that makes the most sense. It is the one I used with my own Technomancer who took the Starfinder Forerunner archetype.

[Gronnigan Conroy]

BretI wrote:

You lose the Class Feature (do not have that feature and therefore can not use anything dependent on it) at second level, gaining it at 5th level instead.

So at 2nd level you have no Magical Hacks nor access to the class feature.

At 5th level, you gain the class feature (allowing you to take things dependent on having that class feature) and a single magical hack.

I read it through several times and this is the interpretation that makes the most sense. It is the one I used with my own Technomancer who took the Starfinder Forerunner archetype.

I see where you're coming from, but that still doesn't make much sense given the wording in the rest of the section. As far as I can tell, the "magical hacks" class feature just gives you the privilege of having a magical hack, much like the operative exploit class feature gives you the privilege of having an operative exploit... or does the latter give you the operative exploit class feature, but you just don't get an operative exploit? What purpose would that serve?

I mean, it's possible that the editing in this section wasn't very good (hence the 9th level mystic losing the healing touch feature that it's had for 8 prior levels), but the specific wording on this makes me think that there might be a method to the madness.

[BretI]

To use an example of where it would matter from Pathfinder, if you don’t have the Magical Hack class feature, you couldn’t take the Extra Magical Hack feat. Pathfinder had plenty of extra <insert class talent/hex/etc> feats.

I can not think of any feats dependent on that particular class feature and I do not expect them to ever make an ‘extra hack’ feat. It was just the simplest example I could come up with right now to illustrate the example.

Writing it the way they did would allow them to have a feat in later publications that was dependent on the Magical Hack class feature.

[Jasque]

I agree with BretI. I also had to read that section several times. You only gain one magic hack once you gain the magic hack class feature, and you do not gain the class feature until level 5.

[Dracomicron]

Jasque wrote:

I agree with BretI. I also had to read that section several times. You only gain one magic hack once you gain the magic hack class feature, and you do not gain the class feature until level 5.

It would be nice if that got clarified, then, because the literal language suggests otherwise (every other instance clearly specifies what is lost and when, and don't affect features gained at other levels except by specific reference).

[Jasque]

I agree that the language needs clarification. It's really not that clear, and I can see GMs interpreting the rule differently. I've marked this for a FAQ.

[Pantshandshake]

Spoiler:

Okay, but you're not taking into consideration the very similar language in almost all the other classes. Operative Exploits, for example, are nearly identical in the language:

"As you gain experience, you learn special tricks called operative exploits. You leran your first operative exploit at 2nd level, and you learn an additional exploit every 2 levels thereafter..."

So why is the alternative class feature for Operatives at 2nd level, "You don't gain an operative exploit" and for Technomancers "You don’t gain the magic hack class feature at 2nd level. Instead, you gain it at 5th level?" Seems like if they meant what you say, they'd just say, "You don't gain a magic hack."

I did throw it up in the Rules for a FAQ check, so you can tell me I'm wrong there instead of mucking up the space cop thread. :P

Spolier: The comment from the other thread I'm replying to, to save some space.

I am taking into consideration the similar languages, I just don’t think it matters. My first assumption is generally not ‘Well, it says A for class X, but B for class Y, so it must not be correct.’ Actually, for a game this new, my first assumption is usually ‘I bet something is going to come out later that will interact with that.’

So, there’s that. Next, all the other classes are changed in a significantly different way. Which is to say, they all have the associated class ability loss listed as ‘multilevel,’ and will lose multiple instances of that class ability as they progress down the archetype’s path. The base function of the class ability does not change.

This is different enough from the technomancer’s losing the class ability and then gaining it later that I’m confident this was intentional. I’m also confident that gaining the class ability 3 levels later than usual means that it functions the same as it did otherwise, just 3 levels later.

[Shaudius]

Honestly, the book suffers from this problem of describing what may be the same thing slightly differently throughout and using the same language to describe two things that may not be the same thing. I've kind of decided to just do whatever makes the most sense for the given situation because official clarifications seem slow/non-existent for the tricky questions. Examples of this situation:

1) This example in this thread.

2) Clever Feint versus Debilitating Trick. Clever Feint says, "If you succeed, the enemy is also flat-footed against your allies’ attacks
until the end of your next turn." Debilitating Trick says, "When you hit an enemy with a trick attack, you can make the creature flat-footed or off-target until the beginning of your next turn."

Are these supposed to mean the same thing or something different, is flat-footed versus attack supposed to be restrictive or is just described differently.

3) Drone Mount. Riding Saddle says, "You can direct your drone mount in battle without attempting Survival checks." Is direct your drone mount in battle supposed to be referring to the "Control Mount in Battle" survival subaction, is it supposed to be referring to more things, its not clear.

4) Drawing Weapons while Trick Attacking. Trick Attack says, "As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property" Drawing a weapon says, "Exception: If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher,
you can combine drawing or sheathing a weapon or weapon-like
object with moving up to your speed as a single move action." Both us moving up to your speed, but Trick Attack is not a move action, as a full action it subsumes your move action.

[Isaac Zephyr]

I think this was more clarification based on prior Pathfinder problems. I'm probably wording that poorly so I'll try to explain.

In Pathfinder, the Gunslinger had the Archtype Mysterious Stranger, which replaced Gun Training at level 5. It was worded "This feature replaces Gun Training". What they meant was that it only replaced the first instance of Gun Training, not all 5 you got over the course of 20 levels. People took this 2 ways and it needed to be clarified.

The wording here for Starfinder I think is to prevent that same problem, by saying you don't get it now due to replacement, but you will still get it later.