Can I use Polymorph Any Object to permanently turn a zombie into a vampire?
Could I then use Command Undead or Control Undead to enslave it and bite me so I can become a vampire?
As a DM, I make you a thrall if you do this in my game. You have voluntarily ended your life, and become a monster under my control.
For the PaO, yeah I think that's a legit permanent change. I'd be more inclined to allow it in the other direction in game, but that means it draws the parallel well enough to work either way. It just ends up being very much more abusable this direction, and comes in game with a perfectly reasonable explanation for why it goes horrifically wrong for you.
Thanks for the opinion on the Polymorph rules since they apply to my game. I'm not really interested in DM house rules though.
vampire can create spawn out of those it slays with blood drain or energy drain, provided that the slain creature is of the same creature type as the vampire’s base creature type. The victim rises from death as a vampire in 1d4 days. This vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it, and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. A vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit become free-willed undead. A vampire may free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
Totally a house rule. Cause, you know, you're definitely level 19 or higher, dominate totally for sure works for 1d4 days after you've died, and there's absolutely no way that even a little bit DM discretion is going to be involved in this process at all ever. Good luck being an NPC brah. ;)
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No, you cannot polymorph any object a zombie into a vampire. The general rules on the polymorph subschool include "Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature."
As vampire is a template, a polymorph spell cannot be used to make a vampire.
Thanks skizzerz for that rule catch. I thought it was too easy.
"As a DM, I make you a thrall if you do this in my game. You have voluntarily ended your life, and become a monster under my control." Is either DM fiat or a houserule.
I already know vampire rules thank you.
Any caster worth his salt can set up a scenario to kill a 5 HD vampire once one is captured.
"there's absolutely no way that even a little bit DM discretion is going to be involved in this process at all ever"
That might be your experience and that's fine, but as a general statement that is wrong. Plenty of DM's help their players acquire a variety of templates, because fun. Also you assume I'm the player. I am the DM and am fine with my player being creative and trying to become a vampire. That would also make me every NPC, so no luck is needed thank you.
To answer the general spirit of the question: You can use polymorph any object to change the general appearance of the creature to any legal target and it will have the duration according to the chart. To make this actually work lets say 'Wight' instead.
Now our Zombie turned 'Wight' will use one of the polymorph spells listed under Polymorph Any Object to see what abilities it gains. And that spell refers to Greater Polymorph. The closest we get to a 'Wight' is 'humanoid' so effectively its 'alter self'. So our Zombie made Wight would gain +2 str, and Dark Vision 60'.
Now if you are a generous GM you might say 'there are polymorph spells on the list that go up to 6th level. Lets allow any polymorph spell up to 6th level to work if its more appropriate'. Then you notice Undead Anatomy 3 among the 6th level spells. Now our 'Frost Wight' gains: +2 str, +2 natural armor, Resistance 20 Cold, and a Vulnerability to Resurrection.
You don't get the energy drain attack, the cold damage, or the create spawn ability.
Note: you get a similar problem trying to use Polymorph Any Object to create an Outsider. The spell just isn't intended to do it.
And lastly, if you could turn a Zombie into a Vampire, you could just turn yourself into a Vampire with the spell. No reason to take the extra step other than you're trying to cheese the system. If you want to become a Vampire that badly just Dominate Person (there are ways to get it to work), or use Magic Jar or just plain bully one into it. Though to be honest the GM would be perfectly in their rights to remove the character from Player control when it becomes a Vampire. After all, the character just died and transformed into a monster.
If you are that high level why not just use a wish or maybe even a limited wish?
Although it isn't mentioned in Polymorph/Greater Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object, using the Undead anatomy line of spells to adjudicate what would actually be gained in a transformation to an undead creature would make sense.
By the RAW, Polymorph Any Object doesn't allow you to turn anything into anything else (with the possible exception involving objects, which is unclear). By this I mean if you were to polymorph a creature to take the form of another creature, that creature would still be the same creature, it would just have a polymorph effect on it that makes it appear to be a different creature, and gains any abilities that Greater Polymorph gives. It doesn't entirely change the creature. (except possibly to a degree with objects)
In addition, the RAW says that it functions as Greater Polymorph, meaning that creature choices are limited to that of Greater Polymorph's (no constructs, outsiders (aside from elemental), abberations, undead, swarms, giants, etc.)
So not only would it just transmute a zombie into a zombie that looks like a vampire, but it wouldn't even do that, since officially Undead Anatomy isn't a spell that Greater Polymorph can replicate.
Sure GMs could say that "because certain polymorph spells didn't exist at the time Greater Polymorph existed, I'll allow certain (or all) polymorph spells to be replicated by this spell as well", it's still not the RAW, so a player would not be justified to assume it without the GM saying so. If paizo really wanted Greater Polymorph to work as any of the unlisted polymorph spells, I would have expected that they'd have mentioned it by now in a reprint, add-on print, or errata/FAQ.
Joesi wrote: it would just have a polymorph effect on it that makes it appear to be a different creature I must beg to differ, as this interpretation makes the spell an Illusion rather than a Transmutation. Which RAW are you referring too?
Quote: In addition, the RAW says that it functions as Greater Polymorph, meaning that creature choices are limited to that of Greater Polymorph's Polymorph Any Object wrote: This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. Polymorph Any Object wrote: Target: one creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level Polymorph, Greater wrote: Target: living creature touched Just because the spell's description references Greater Polymorph, doesn't make it a carbon copy.
Polymorph any object is limited in what it can turn things into, it functions as greater polymorph with different targets and durations.
It also allows you to turn creatures into objects and vice versa, but the creature forms are limited by greater polymorph.
VRMH wrote: Joesi wrote: it would just have a polymorph effect on it that makes it appear to be a different creature I must beg to differ, as this interpretation makes the spell an Illusion rather than a Transmutation. Which RAW are you referring too? It’s the rules for polymorph-type spells in the magic chapter of the CRB, “While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. ”. Now if the spell were simply a transmutation spell without being a polymorph spell, then it would work as you suggest. And being a polymorph-type spell is also what causes the other limitations people are talking about.
Also, the spell isn’t instantaneous, but instead “permanent”. Which is a very different thing in the rules. A permanent spell can just be dispelled, so the change only lasts as long as the magic is there.
VRMH wrote: I must beg to differ, as this interpretation makes the spell an Illusion rather than a Transmutation. Which RAW are you referring too? No you're totally misunderstanding me and/or straw-manning me. I just used "APPEAR" to simplify wording over something like looks, feels, and otherwise seems like that thing. In addition I explicitly mentioned that they gain the capabilities listed from the Greater Polymorph spell, which illusion magic does not do. My point is that it does not change a creature completely into another. Their creature type does not change, and they don't gain all of the abilities of the new form.
Quote: Just because the spell's description references Greater Polymorph, doesn't make it a carbon copy. It doesn't merely reference Greater Polymorph but specifically says that it functions as Greater Polymorph just with added differences such as target and duration. I didn't state that it is a carbon copy of GP. It's GP with different duration plus the ability to convert things to and from objects.
Since this thread is still kicking around for some reason, lets point out another way to do what the OP wants.
If you make a Simulacrum of a Vampire of your Race (must be your race for the transformation to work!) then its a 'real' vampire with all of the abilities appropriate for a vampire of half the HD of the one you copied. So technically you'd have a vampire that is completely loyal to you that could make you into a vampire that is under its control...no idea who ends up being in charge. Could be the Vampire, could be you. Might be the GM. Definitely up to the GM.
But hey, its a way to become a Vampire without knowing a real vampire. Less risk too.
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