Red Spirit's page

"The examples you gave all fall under giving a fish instead of teaching a man to fish”

I disagree. I am merely giving them tools (see: fishing rod) such as holy water, or extra stats and attacks in order to overcome obstacles they normally couldn't. I am not solving their problems for them (see: giving a fish).

I am however greatly interested in your line of thinking. Spells that benefit the castor such as Mending, and Create Water and Purify Food and Water are some of the best ways to help NPC's suggested so far, even if those are mostly "give-a-fish" idea's.

I think we could even go further with that line of thought and extend it to spells such as stonewall, fabricate, and permanent illusions that could create shelter, places of business, advertising, and protection/security from outside threats; even to help solve common issue such as bad weather.

I will have to look at other spells because THIS is getting GOOD.

OH! Just thought of using advanced Homunculi creation rules that could act as temporary teachers that teach NPC's essential skills.

Or even just permament animated objects that could serve as bodyguards, transportation, etc... although now we are starting to get a bit expensive and therefore prohibitive.

I know this seems a bit redundant, given that most players are heroes who essentially go around helping people. But I thought it was only fair that I put effort into optimizing "Helping People" as much as I used to try and optimize my characters.

You see I have found that role playing good characters is very fun. I enjoy helping people in real life and want to include that in my fantasy games as well.

I am a fan of the "teach a man how to fish" form of helping and would like assistance finding permanent ways of helping NPC's in game.

So far I have:

False Focus Feat + Bless Water = Free Holy Water for commoners facing undead. (Note that flooding the market will NOT help local clergies, so this should be used sparingly, probably... I'm not an economics expert but I agree with Momo Yaoyorozu in this regard)

Polymorph Any Object = Free +2 Strength/Dex bonus until dispelled (or potentially other bonuses depending on form)

And that's it.

Can anyone find something else for me?

Thanks skizzerz for that rule catch. I thought it was too easy.

"As a DM, I make you a thrall if you do this in my game. You have voluntarily ended your life, and become a monster under my control." Is either DM fiat or a houserule.

I already know vampire rules thank you.

Any caster worth his salt can set up a scenario to kill a 5 HD vampire once one is captured.

"there's absolutely no way that even a little bit DM discretion is going to be involved in this process at all ever"

That might be your experience and that's fine, but as a general statement that is wrong. Plenty of DM's help their players acquire a variety of templates, because fun. Also you assume I'm the player. I am the DM and am fine with my player being creative and trying to become a vampire. That would also make me every NPC, so no luck is needed thank you.

Thanks for the opinion on the Polymorph rules since they apply to my game. I'm not really interested in DM house rules though.

Can I use Polymorph Any Object to permanently turn a zombie into a vampire?

Could I then use Command Undead or Control Undead to enslave it and bite me so I can become a vampire?

Pizza Lord wrote:

There is more to the connection between the creator and the dead than just their voice

Is there? I mean it makes sense, but I haven't seen any indication of this in the rules.

I would recommend rereading the animate dead spell, because the indication that this is a part of the rules is in the first sentence.

"This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey *your* spoken commands."

Who's spoken commands do the undead or zombies follow? The casters. What about a voice that sounds like a casters?

Well is that voice that sounds like the casters the caster? If yes, then the skeleton obeys according to the spell, if not, then no, the spell only indicates the undead follow one persons spoken commands -- the casters.

Stuff

I agree with your points about light weapons. I also do not think that reducing the "handedness" is a good idea for game balance reasons. I'm actually not sure that's a thing. I'm sure there are ways that we could give an advantage to mithral weapons that would be balanced and would not make them the go-to material choice for all adventurers. I just cannot think of any right now. If they come I will be sure to share. And if anyone has a good idea I would love to hear it.

I feel like "it's really light but nonetheless strong" is a thing that would, practically speaking, be better for armor than weapons and this is reflected in the mechanics for mithral.

After all, a lighter sword or arrowhead is not better at piercing armor than a heavier one is, and the assumption for most combat in this game is that most people are going to be wearing armor.

While I would agree to a point with your specific example, I do not agree that mithral is better for armor than for weapons. As a HEMAA member I can say from personal experience that there would be great advantages to having a lighter weapon that was just as strong. These advantages don't necessarily have represent an increase of force--see one of the advantages Daw suggested. Although they could, like the examples I have given through a weapons design. Especially with a longer weapon, where it would be easier to swing and the centripetal acceleration would cause your force to be greatly increased due to the length of the weapon.

If you are arguing that some weapons that are not mostly made of mithral would not be given an advantage, such as an arrow, I can understand that line of reasoning even if I do not necessarily agree, not that I don't agree, I just don't know because I'm not a fletcher.

An example of how a weapon could benefit from being lighter are the weapons made on the youtube series Man at Arms. Many of these weapons look great and are from very poplar shows and games. However they just wouldn't be effective because of their weight and design. If they were made out of a material such as mithral, they would be able to be used, despite unconventional designs and dimensions.

There is a mechanical benefit to mithral, it weighs half as much, always counts as masterwork, and counts as silver for the purposes of bypassing DR.

Good points! I am aware of the mechanical benefit to mithral weapons. My point would be that there are more opportunities for mechanical benefits, such as the mechanical benefits given to mithral armors. I don't feel like mithral weapons are reaching their full potential.

If you are trying to make the rules more realistic then arguably the lighter weight should mean less damage for bludgeoning and slashing weapons if not piercing ones.

I would argue that would be true if the weapon stayed the same size. If the weapon was increased in size (like I suggest in the wuxia/paladin example) I would argue the mass would stay the same and therefore the force/damage would also be similar. I wouldn't want mithral weapons to give larger weapon size damage though, for balance reasons. I like that line of reasoning though.

The problem with this reasoning is that PF does a piss poor job of potraying weapons as it is. So it is almost impossible to go down path of logic how lighter(yet as strong) material would influence weapon desing, when the current rules are so abstract and flat out wrong in the potrayal of weapons.

For example, PF highly over values swords. Swords were sidearms, that would be the same as making pistols the best weapon in modern setting rpg. Polearms are highly unrated, simple quarter staff is superior weapon to any and all swords that are not some form of greatsword. Also axes are way more damaging than swords when armor steps into play(including even a simple gamberson), then again the system does not account for the fact that swords are a lot better defensive tools than most other weapons in the same size category.

If you want more realistic weapons, I suggest looking at different systems. There are ones that actually take into account the real differences of weapons. (And not all of them also make the mistake of bogging down to minutia)

My reasoning is not that I wan't more realistic weapons, although that would be the justification behind the reasoning, but that because mithral armors get a bonus because of the traits intrinsic to mithral, weapons should too. I actually am okay with pathfinder not portraying weapons with exact minutia, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we agree that more book keeping is not what pathfinder needs. My argument would be, it is a simple process to give some advantages to mithral weapons, similarly to how advantages have been given to mithral armors.

I think mithral is fine the way it is.

Great! Why don't you like the idea of additional role playing and mechanical options for mithral weapons. I would prefer you provide a persuasive argument for your opinions as I stated at the beginning of my post. The purpose of that beginning statement was to avoid opinions that do not contribute to the discussion.

This is mostly an appeal for a change in the way Mithral mechanics could work in pathfinder. This of course could be house ruled in my own games, but a discussion is not only interesting but potentially beneficial to others with similar opinions. If you have a disagreement feel free to provide a persuasive argument for it.

I feel there is an opportunity for mithral weapons that has not been explored. This personal observation was inspired by the value I have for verisimilitude in games. Verisimilitude is more important for role playing games because like role playing it performs under the assumption that there are universal laws that govern how the world works. It is hard to role play unless the role players share knowledge of those universal laws such as gravity and cultural social cues (in this example it is common assumption/law of nature that cultures will develop their own social cues).

Using this line of reasoning, it is a current rule and therefore common knowledge that mithral is a significantly lighter material that is also as strong as steel. Currently the rules are such that armor, and those who wear it, are mostly benefiting from the lighter metal. Because I am not an expert, I would ask of the community in what ways weapons would benefit from a lighter material that was similar in hardness and malleability to steel. From my amateur perspective, I would guess that weapons could benefit both a mechanically and flavor-fully. An example I would give is that because of the decreased weight, weapons could be made larger and more ornate, similarly to wuxia-styled weapons or weapons carried by popular game characters. The style could vary from a Sephiroth styled Nodachi, to a Earthbreaker-styled, Warcraft 3 and beyond, Paladin hammer. While I am not a huge advocate of balance in games, preferring instead a game that adheres to verisimilitude which historically often gives an unfair advantage to one or more parties in a conflict, I understand the need for a certain amount of balance in a game. I am interested in what mechanical benefits the community would propose to such weapons that could be made in this manner.

My own thoughts would be reach weapons, that would otherwise not be reach weapons--seemingly defying gravity because of their lightness. Weapons that are made for appropriately sized creatures, but act as larger weapons, maybe not in damage, but in other attributes such as proficiency penalties, because of the decreased weight and design opportunities involved in their construction.

Considering the lack of mechanics Mithral based weapons currently have in the present state of the game, I think there is an opportunity here that the game designers could take advantage that would give many role playing and mechanical advantages to characters and players of the game--now that I think about it maybe even more so to martial characters. What do you all think? Are there opportunities or ideas that I may have missed? Do these idea's detract from what you value in the game or would you welcome the idea of additional role playing and mechanical options for mithral weapons?

TL;DR: I think weapons should have mithral mechanical benefits, and here's why. I'm not an expert though, so what do you think?

New Race: Nascent

This pale man walks toward you with purpose. He grins over a sharply cut goatee and reaches within his cloak…

M Undead

Shambling Strength: Nascent have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
+2 Cha, -2 Dex: Nascent are determined, and their undead bodies are strong, if a little clumsy.
Senses: Darkvision 60ft
Undead Traits and Immunities
Light Blindness (Ex): Creatures with light blindness are blinded for 1 round if exposed to bright light, such as sunlight or the daylight spell. Such creatures are dazzled as long as they remain in areas of bright light.
Resurrection Vulnerability (Ex): A raise dead spell cast on a member of this race can destroy it (Will negates).

Spirits that are not necessarily evil and that have a strong enough will may create their own body in order to manipulate and roam the material plane. This they do to fulfill whatever great purpose that fueled their will. Near areas of Negative energy they form a cocoon of this same energy and hatch their own undead body on the material plane. If the cocoon is left undisturbed the process takes about a week.

Passing through planes in this manner is extremely difficult, and the spirit loses all memory of it’s past life. Mysteriously it knows a few words in a tongue other Nascent call Sermomortis. From birth the Nascent refers to itself by a name whos origin is not known. All they remember is an extreme desire to not be destroyed.

A Nascent is able to use some of it’s own life force as a catalyst to start the formation of other Nascent. Which it does for a sense of protection and maybe out of loneliness or dominance. It may do this a number of times equal to its charisma modifier.

Sometimes it does this almost immediatly after it manifests itself on the material plane, causing twins. This unique form of reproduction sometimes causes family trees, houses, and clans. With one matriarch or patriarch protecting and leading the family from the dangers of the living.

+16 Undead
-1 Slow Speed
-2? Ability Scores (Note: I started with paragon witch has -2 str -2 dex and +4 cha; but I wanted something more well rounded so I dropped the Cha to +2 and dropped the str penalty.)
0 Xenophobic Array, Sermomortis; Common, Elven, Dwarven, Draconic. (they like old languages)
-2 Light Blindness
-1 Resurrection Vulnerability

Total: 10