Arm Wrestling at the local tavern

[Atalius]

Anyone know a cool way I can have my PC's arm wrestle some NPC at the local tavern? How would you do it? I have read old threads and found ways for gambling in dice games, this would also be quite fun IMO.

[DungeonmasterCal]

STR vs STR rolls. That's how we've done it. If one opponent is larger or smaller throw in a penalty or bonus, depending on which you prefer.

[LordKailas]

I would run it as such.

You can either "play fair" and it's just a str check or you can "cheat" by bracing yourself against the table, standing slightly, etc. In which case you can make a CMB check instead.

So, if both sides end up cheating then it's opposed CMB checks.

[SorrySleeping]

I feel like dex should be added in somehow.

Opposed dex checks, winner of the dex check gets to roll twice and take the better on their str check.

[Atalius]

oh neat, how many rolls before a pin? etc

[Claxon]

I would just do opposed strength checks. If an individual wants to cheat to brace themselves against the table or some such I would simply give a flat bonus to the check. Maybe a +2 to a +4 depending on what they do exactly. Also, some sort of perception check vs bluff for anyone to notice they've done so.

I wouldn't let dex figure in, it doesn't really make sense to me.

And I would only do a single roll personally, but I wouldn't really want to drag out such a contest. If you want to do more than 1 roll I would do a total of 3 successes, but have an opponents success reduce the "controllers" amount of successes by 1. With the controller being the person to have succeeded on the first round. The controller can be switched if the other opponent reduces the controller to 0 successes, in this case it's "neutral" with neither individual being the controller (like it was the initial round of arm wrestling).

[yukongil]

I'd suggest a smaller die than a d20, there is just too much "swing" in the numbers. Maybe use something like a 1d6 + strength mod. Otherwise you end up with the possibility of a halfling beating an ogre far more often that should be possible.

Then add in modifiers for bracing, cheating and the like. As for successes, I like 3 in a row to pin.

[Claxon]

The ogre should probably get a +4 bonus per size category.

So the ogre is two size categories larger, +8. It has a strength of 21. Let assume this is a swole halfling, and also has a 20 strength. So we can basically ignore the modifier for both.

Now, lets assume you can take 10.

The halfling needs to roll an 18, to match the ogre on a take 10 and a 19 or 20 to beat the ogre.

To me, that outcome is exactly as it should be.

A cocky opponent might not take their opponent seriously, and under perform compared to their focused opponent and lose one round. Then they can take 10 if they think they seriously outclass their opponent (like due to size).

[LordKailas]

Claxon wrote:

The ogre should probably get a +4 bonus per size category.

So the ogre is two size categories larger, +8. It has a strength of 21. Let assume this is a swole halfling, and also has a 20 strength. So we can basically ignore the modifier for both.

at this point you might as well make it a modified grapple check. Basically do opposed CMB checks to see who the "grappler" is.

After that, the defender gets a chance to roll to reverse the grapple to become the controller against the controller's CMD. If they fail to do this then the controller can roll against their opponenet's CMD in order to "Pin" their opponent.

If two opponenets are evenly matched then it could take many rounds. If one opponent easily out classes the other then it only takes 2 rounds tops for them to win.

Cheating now just takes the form of a bonus as previously described.

Edit: if you want to make it really dramatic/traumatic you could even rule that if your check doubles your opponents CMD you can replicate the arm wrestling scene from "the fly". :p

[CactusUnicorn]

Roll a d% then roll a Str check and add them together. This simulates the disparity between actual strength and arm wrestling as arm wrestling uses your deltoids which you never really use for pushing or pulling objects, just raising your arms and doing the arm wrestling motion. If you can't tell, I hate arm wrestling.

[yukongil]

Claxon wrote:

The ogre should probably get a +4 bonus per size category.

So the ogre is two size categories larger, +8. It has a strength of 21. Let assume this is a swole halfling, and also has a 20 strength. So we can basically ignore the modifier for both.

Now, lets assume you can take 10.

The halfling needs to roll an 18, to match the ogre on a take 10 and a 19 or 20 to beat the ogre.

To me, that outcome is exactly as it should be.

A cocky opponent might not take their opponent seriously, and under perform compared to their focused opponent and lose one round. Then they can take 10 if they think they seriously outclass their opponent (like due to size).

but larger creatures have already gotten a bonus to Str for being larger, adding in more seems like overkill IMO. Otherwise, I agree with you, but once the dice start rolling, things can get weird, which is why I suggest lowering the randomness of that.

also, I can't believe nobody suggested a bonus for turning your hat around...

[arkham]

I have a system for it.
To win, you must beat your opponent's STR rolls by a cumulative 20.
Initiative roll, winner gets +2 to their STR roll on the first turn.
Cheating can give a bonus to each roll, depending on quality of cheating, up to +4.
Size difference, +4 for each size category larger.
Each round, add the amount of success or fail to add or subtract from the players progress until someone gets 20.

[Claxon]

yukongil wrote:

but larger creatures have already gotten a bonus to Str for being larger, adding in more seems like overkill IMO. Otherwise, I agree with you, but once the dice start rolling, things can get weird, which is why I suggest lowering the randomness of that.

also, I can't believe nobody suggested a bonus for turning your hat around...

Nah. They got bonus for being a specific race, sometimes.

In the case of the ogre, we don't know how they arrived at their strength score. You can't build an ogre character.

Nah, just like carrying capacity and combat maneuvers it makes sense for size to give an bonus to arm wrestling.

[Atalius]

A lot of great suggestions so far. Would the PC barbarian be able to Rage to get his STR up or the group druid be able to wildshape into a form with short arms like that of an allosaurus and compete? Or would you rule that cheating?

[Dave Justus]

I'd use CMB vs CMB (which already includes a size modifier) and go with something like arkham suggests as a target total number. 20 being the cumulative target seems a little high to me, but it workable, my gut says 10 or 15 is better. It being reasonably likely that someone with a +1 or +2 bonus vs a + 12 or +13 bonus gets beaten in one roll seems legitimate.

[Atalius]

Would that be just your CMB or Grappling CMB?

[Claxon]

I personally wouldn't use CMB or CMD as I don't think dex has a place in an arm wrestling contest.

I would consider rage to be a legitimate thing for a barbarian to use.

Wildshaping would depend on the terms of the particular arm wrestling contest. I would consider it dishonorable if you didn't mention in advance you intended to do so.

[Shiroi]

Okay, so speed only really factors in once or twice, but endurance is constantly in play. Let's get simulationist.

Each player makes a secret decision for 'brace', 'push', or 'rush'. Sense motive DC 10+bluff reveals what your opponent will do, but only at the start of the match. After that you're too focused and things change too quickly to read that way. This allows you to change your opening move at the last second if you see how they will play, but if they also read your intent then you both might change tactics with no further time to react.

If you brace, you receive a flat +10 to your check and ignore initiative count to do so, but cannot actually gain any distance so you can't win this way merely tire them out to win later. Brace costs 1 con.

Push expends 2 con to do a basic strength check. If you win, the opponent loses 4 con and if you win by 5 or more you push them past the line. If you win by 10 or more, you flatten them instead.

Rush should be used sparingly in a game, typically at the start but sometimes to finish an opponent off. If you win initiative and have chosen rush, you may add your dex modifier to the result of the strength check before treating this as a push for all other intents. You may instead use your rush to finish off an opponent later on, doing so requires that you have been pressed back to your side of the line and then may then attempt to rush as a comeback move. Rushing in this way also reverses the bonus normally gained from being behind the line. Because rushing costs 5 con, it is a dangerous move used when strength is not enough to win. It is easily blocked most of the time by brace, if you can anticipate your opponent.

On to the final step, the win conditions. If you are behind the line, you take a -2 on all strength checks and lose one extra con for each action. For rush this penalty is reversed. If you are flattened you lose. If you push someone behind the line when you were behind the line, this instead returns you both to the line. If you would flatten them while you are behind the line, you instead push them behind the line.

If a player runs out of con, they instead pay for actions with strength. If both players reach a strength of zero at the same time, they collapse in a tie. Otherwise, the player with strength remaining, or who has won a round by 10 or more, wins. Ties may be pre-decided such as defender of the cup wins, or may require a rematch or other such concerns. Either way, at the end of the match your arm is very sore. For every point of con or strength you lost this way, you now take one point of non-lethal damage up to your current HP, and are exhausted for the same number of rounds. You are fatigued for the same number of minutes as well. When the exhaustion goes away, so does the non-lethal damage, and healing the damage also removes both conditions.

EDIT: I missed cheating rules. Your bluff or slight of hand vs their perception or sense motive as deemed appropriate, +/- any conditional mods the DM applies as usual. You take a penalty on your bluff/SoH equal to 3 for each +1 you intend to add to your effective STR and score for your cheat. This can affect both your modifier on every round of the match, and also how long you are able to maintain a strong output before your strength starts to slip.

Example: Walker has 18 con and 17 str, he doesn't think he can beat the barbarian fairly. He could slip something in his drink, use a potion of bulls str, or pad his elbow. In any case, he determines a level of advantage to gain first. He believes a str of 24 will win, but is willing to risk a str of 22 to make it easier. He needs +5 str for this match, so he takes the potion of bulls strength for +4 and slips a small pad of cotton into his sleeve to add a bit of height to his arm and comfort on the table. He now needs to make a bluff check at a -15 to straight face lie that he is being fair and honorable before the match begins. If he succeeds, he will have an effective 22 strength and 23 con for the purposes of this match. If he is caught, or loses the competition, the tribe chieftain will likely execute the halfling captive.

[wraithstrike]

I'd go with CMB, but rule that it's just strength based so that feat that lets you use dex doesn't come into play. You aren't going to beat someone in arm wresting on dex alone.