| Revengeance |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm sure everyone knows the cheesy Blood Money and Wall of Iron/Fabricate exploits. Unfortunately, these require some measure of cooperation from other characters and the GM. Here's another trick I came up with which seems a bit...less cheesy.
The only things you need are 1) the Simulacrum spell, and 2) the ability to create Blessed Books.
1) Create a Simulacrum, imitating yourself. It will be at half your level, and will have half your skills and feats. Endow it with Create Wondrous Item and Spellcraft.
2) Order the simulacrum to create a Blessed Book, which takes 13 days at 1000 gp/day.
3) Order the simulacrum to copy your spellbook into the Blessed Book, using Scrivener's Chant (a cantrip) as necessary to speed up the process. This will create a reference Book.
4) Order the Simulacrum to loop steps 2-3, thereby generating half the value of your known spells.
This generates between 5 and 405 gp profit per spell, or 5-45 gp/min. Since the Book can hold 1000 pages (= 1000 minutes of writing), this produces a profit between 5000 and 45000 gp per full book, limited by the number and power of spells you know. This can be scaled up to any number of simulacra. The downside, of course, is that a 7th-level spell is required, but it's a perfectly passive income once you get it started, and requires only the initial capital outlay of a single Book and simulacrum.
| Mathmuse |
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with any cute trick to make money is that Pathfinder is not an economic simulation game. The market is handwaved so that the players don't have to deal with realistic mechanics of a market. But if a player starts playing with economics, then I am willing to start houseruling the game to make the markets more realistic. The local market for those particular spells would quickly become flooded and no-one would buy the Blessed Books anymore. So the wizard would have to start shipping the books to foreign countries, etc. increasing the costs.
Inventing a money-making scheme for the sake of theorycrafting with the system without actually exploiting it is good, clean fun. However, I am curious about a few details. First, would the wizard and his simulacrum know enough spells to fill a 1000-page Blessed Book without repeating spells? Each spell takes up a number of pages equal to its level, so if the simulacrum uses 3rd-level spells for maximum profit, that would be 333 spells. Second, does the cost of the simulacrum matter? Creating a simulacrum costs 100 gp per hit point. For a 6th-level simulacrum with Con 10 would have around 24 hit points, so that is 2400 gp. Okay, that is minor compared to the cost to make a Blessed Book. Third, why bother with the simulacrum? The wizard could make and fill Blessed Books himself.
| LordKailas |
I would check out the downtime system. It's designed to handle this kind of thing. You could have your simulacrum run a magic shop while you're off adventuring and it will generate about 3gp per day, possibly more if you really optimize the business.
Even if you're using some method to create magic items at below 50% market value (so you're actually making money selling it at 50%). You still have purchase limits depending on what size town you're in. Once you hit a town's purchase limit you'll have to wait a week before that money becomes available again.
| LordKailas |
Out of curiosity I was trying to determine your math and I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.
If I assume 10 normal spellbooks and assume that they contain nothing but 4th level spells. Each spellbook is worth 4,000gp. ((4^2)x10)x(100/4).
Following this same approach
10x level 4 only = 40,000gp
10x level 3 only = 30,000gp
10x level 2 only = 20,000gp
10x level 1 only = 10,000gp
However, we can only sell it for half this and a blessed book costs 6250 to create. So profits are as follows:
10x level 4 only = 20,000gp - 6,250 = 13,750
10x level 3 only = 15,000gp - 6,250 = 8,750
10x level 2 only = 10,000gp - 6,250 = 3,750
10x level 1 only = 5,000gp - 6,250 = -1,250
If you sell books that are a mix of 1st - 4th then each one will on average make a profit of 6,250.
If you sell books that are a mix of 2nd - 4th (since 1st makes you lose money) then each will on average make a profit of 8,750.
Since it takes you 7 days to create a blessed book. Then you will make 1,250gp per day.
| Mark Hoover 330 |
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"Mark, why do you allow Magic Marts in your games? I mean jeez; ANY wizard with the cash can stroll into the market of a Large City and just buy ANY spell they want?" This thread is my justification.
I've seen several wizard crafting items threads exploiting a number of loopholes to generate profit. If the RAW pans out on these then they're a perfectly rules-legal way of NPC arcane/divine spellcasters making their way in life.
Once that's the case, logic dictates that these mass-produced spellbooks, scrolls and so on have to end up somewhere. Thus the reason why I use the Settlement rules for buying/selling magic items whole cloth without any changes and with no in-story justifications.
If your PC wizard can flood the market with Blessed Books, why can't the 16th level caster at the college of magic in the capitol city? And thus... his spell books are everywhere.
| Volkard Abendroth |
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I would check out the downtime system. It's designed to handle this kind of thing. You could have your simulacrum run a magic shop while you're off adventuring and it will generate about 3gp per day, possibly more if you really optimize the business.
Even if you're using some method to create magic items at below 50% market value (so you're actually making money selling it at 50%). You still have purchase limits depending on what size town you're in. Once you hit a town's purchase limit you'll have to wait a week before that money becomes available again.
Something I laugh over:
The game mechanics reinforce this by only allowing you to sell items for half their normal price because it assumes selling them to an NPC shopkeeper, so even if you craft a bag of holding, you can’t sell it yourself for full price because you don’t have your own store to sell it in.
A character with a simulacrum of himself can own and operate a store full time.
| Mathmuse |
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Something I laugh over:
Creating Magic items for Profit wrote:The game mechanics reinforce this by only allowing you to sell items for half their normal price because it assumes selling them to an NPC shopkeeper, so even if you craft a bag of holding, you can’t sell it yourself for full price because you don’t have your own store to sell it in.A character with a simulacrum of himself can own and operate a store full time.
That would be a great consequence for an 8th-level party that robbed a magic mart. A familiar wizard appears before them.
WIZARD: You killed my shopkeeper and robbed my store!
PC #1: Wait, I recognize you. You are the shopkeeper. Someone resurrected you.
PC #2: We killed you once, we can kill you again.
WIZARD: That was my 8th-level simulacrum. Guess how powerful I am!
| LordKailas |
Something I laugh over:Creating Magic items for Profit wrote:The game mechanics reinforce this by only allowing you to sell items for half their normal price because it assumes selling them to an NPC shopkeeper, so even if you craft a bag of holding, you can’t sell it yourself for full price because you don’t have your own store to sell it in.A character with a simulacrum of himself can own and operate a store full time.
True, but if you run a store full time, it falls under the down time rules.
A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4–5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day.
IRL it's the difference between wanting to sell an antique book for cash today vs. trying to sell it for it's full value. If you want cash today you can take it down to your local pawn shop and maybe get 50% of it's value (though probably more like 10%) but you get that money today without any extra hassle. Selling it for full price would mean opening your own store (or perhaps just renting space in an existing antique shop) and getting your asking price in a few months.
| Dave Justus |
According to the rules, you can sell captured spellbooks, but there is nothing at all that says you can spell spellbooks you create, so you have to first give away your spellbooks to someone, and then capture them before you can sell them.
Also, any money making scheme that involves Simulacra is pretty much exactly as cheesy as any money making scheme that involves blood money. Only the ones that require both exceed this level of cheese.
| Volkard Abendroth |
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Something I laugh over:Creating Magic items for Profit wrote:The game mechanics reinforce this by only allowing you to sell items for half their normal price because it assumes selling them to an NPC shopkeeper, so even if you craft a bag of holding, you can’t sell it yourself for full price because you don’t have your own store to sell it in.A character with a simulacrum of himself can own and operate a store full time.True, but if you run a store full time, it falls under the down time rules.
Creating Magic Items for Profit wrote:A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4–5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day.IRL it's the difference between wanting to sell an antique book for cash today vs. trying to sell it for it's full value. If you want cash today you can take it down to your local pawn shop and maybe get 50% of it's value (though probably more like 10%) but you get that money today without any extra hassle. Selling it for full price would mean opening your own store (or perhaps just renting space in an existing antique shop) and getting your asking price in a few months.
That is one option, another is:
Alter Wealth By Level: Similar to using the item crafting rules to adjust wealth by level, this just applies a flat adjustment to your expected wealth. You don’t even have to account for what specific items were crafted using this method.
Example: Rob’s cleric has the Brew Potion feat and owns a magic shop. Jessica, the GM, allows him to exceed his wealth by level by 25%, and the extra doesn’t all have to be in the form of potions — Rob’s shop is selling potions, and he is using his profits to purchase other items for his character.
| Volkard Abendroth |
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
According to the rules, you can sell captured spellbooks, but there is nothing at all that says you can spell spellbooks you create, so you have to first give away your spellbooks to someone, and then capture them before you can sell them.
Nothing in the rules says the DEAD condition stops a character from acting normally, but most players apply common sense.
Aside from semantics, there is no difference between a captured spellbook and a player-created book.
| Revengeance |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with any cute trick to make money is that Pathfinder is not an economic simulation game. The market is handwaved so that the players don't have to deal with realistic mechanics of a market. But if a player starts playing with economics, then I am willing to start houseruling the game to make the markets more realistic. The local market for those particular spells would quickly become flooded and no-one would buy the Blessed Books anymore. So the wizard would have to start shipping the books to foreign countries, etc. increasing the costs.
Ah, but the local market wouldn't get flooded because the simulacra only produce one book every 2 weeks. This isn't on the same level as producing 1 million iron daggers and dumping them on the market all at once. Any town is already going to have a robust supply of books and scrolls, and adding a few per year won't muck with the supply enough to change the equilibrium price. Moreover, the "shipment" isn't a problem at all - you can order a simulacrum to travel to any known town. Imagine a franchise, with a small number of local simulacra shopkeepers!
Inventing a money-making scheme for the sake of theorycrafting with the system without actually exploiting it is good, clean fun. However, I am curious about a few details. First, would the wizard and his simulacrum know enough spells to fill a 1000-page Blessed Book without repeating spells? Each spell takes up a number of pages equal to its level, so if the simulacrum uses 3rd-level spells for maximum profit, that would be 333 spells. Second, does the cost of the simulacrum matter? Creating a simulacrum costs 100 gp per hit point. For a 6th-level simulacrum with Con 10 would have around 24 hit points, so that is 2400 gp. Okay, that is minor compared to the cost to make a Blessed Book. Third, why bother with the simulacrum? The wizard could make and fill Blessed Books himself.
The books probably wouldn't be completely filled, at least not to start, but you can recover the price of the books 100% even if they're blank, since they both cost and sell for 50% of their market value. Every spell you add means increasing the rate of money creation, and that means every gp you get should be funneled into buying more scrolls or renting other wizards' books, if possible.
The simulacra are reusable and relatively low cost, so no problems there. The reason you bother with the simulacrum isn't that you can't do it yourself (indeed, doing it yourself is probably how you get the scheme off the ground without setting back your adventuring too much) - the advantage is that you can run this economic activity on autopilot while you do the adventuring. Even at low rates, passive income is passive income. That means more focus on roleplay (and less time spent roping clerics into your blood money scheme), and you can afford to give the more item-dependent characters priority on loot.
Out of curiosity I was trying to determine your math and I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.
If I assume 10 normal spellbooks and assume that they contain nothing but 4th level spells. Each spellbook is worth 4,000gp. ((4^2)x10)x(100/4).
Following this same approach
10x level 4 only = 40,000gp
10x level 3 only = 30,000gp
10x level 2 only = 20,000gp
10x level 1 only = 10,000gpHowever, we can only sell it for half this and a blessed book costs 6250 to create. So profits are as follows:
10x level 4 only = 20,000gp - 6,250 = 13,750
10x level 3 only = 15,000gp - 6,250 = 8,750
10x level 2 only = 10,000gp - 6,250 = 3,750
10x level 1 only = 5,000gp - 6,250 = -1,250If you sell books that are a mix of 1st - 4th then each one will on average make a profit of 6,250.
If you sell books that are a mix of 2nd - 4th (since 1st makes you lose money) then each will on average make a profit of 8,750.
Since it takes you 7 days to create a blessed book. Then you will make 1,250gp per day.
So, first, you don't need to lose the cost of the Book when you sell it. Think of it this way: an empty Book will sell for 50% of its book value (heh, puns). If you add 1 cantrip to it, you haven't reduced its value at all - it's still got 999 perfectly usable pages! If you sold 10x level 1 only books, you'd have 5000 gp, which is exactly the lower bound I cited in the original post.
Moreover, you're not producing a Book every week. It takes 2 weeks, since item creation takes time equal to market value divided by 1000. MV is 12500, not 6250.
The real limiting factor is the number of spells you know. And that is a real limitation: 20 level 5 spells is still only 100 pages worth of material! But every spell in a book also represents pure profit, so the trick relies heavily on re-investing those profits toward building out the book you're actually using for adventuring. But as a wizard, you should probably be learning new spells as you can afford anyway, because you're supposed to be a bit of a swiss army knife. Either way, what's wrong with producing a profit of 1k gp per day? Free is free, and passive is passive.
WIZARD: You killed my shopkeeper and robbed my store!
PC #1: Wait, I recognize you. You are the shopkeeper. Someone resurrected you.
PC #2: We killed you once, we can kill you again.
WIZARD: That was my 8th-level simulacrum. Guess how powerful I am!
Feel free to use this in one of your games. It would be a memorable encounter, to be sure.
| LordKailas |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The books probably wouldn't be completely filled, at least not to start, but you can recover the price of the books 100% even if they're blank, since they both cost and sell for 50% of their market value. Every spell you add means increasing the rate of money creation, and that means every gp you get should be funneled into buying more scrolls or renting other wizards' books, if possible.
I am assuming that the book is full because that's how you maximize profit on it. The problem is once you fill the book it is now no better or worse than just purchasing a normal spellbook. So you spend the money to create the book, fill the book and then sell it as a normal spellbook. The advantage of the blessed book is that it costs nothing to put spells in it and the cost to make it is less per page than the cost to put 2nd level and higher spells in a spellbook.
As for leaving it partially blank, there's no reason to do that. The blank pages result in zero profit, whereas even just putting a 2nd level spell results in profit.
Moreover, you're not producing a Book every week. It takes 2 weeks, since item creation takes time equal to market value divided by 1000. MV is 12500, not 6250.
sure, if you want to do things the slow way. But you can increase the DC of the spellcraft check by 5 to create the book in half the time. Unless you can't make the increased check by taking 10 there's no reason not to do this.
The DC to make a blessed book is CL+5
So, it is a DC: 13 spellcraft check. If I cut the time in half it becomes a DC:18.
At caster level 7, assuming I max out spellcraft I will have 7+3+1 or +11 to my check at minimum. if I take 10 then I will get a 21 which is more than enough to make the check.
Either way, what's wrong with producing a profit of 1k gp per day?
I never said anything was wrong with it, but 1k per day is quite different than 45gp/min. Which is what the OP stated this method would generate.
| Revengeance |
I am assuming that the book is full because that's how you maximize profit on it. The problem is once you fill the book it is now no better or worse than just purchasing a normal spellbook. So you spend the money to create the book, fill the book and then sell it as a normal spellbook. The advantage of the blessed book is that it costs nothing to put spells in it and the cost to make it is less per page than the cost to put 2nd level and higher spells in a spellbook.
As for leaving it partially blank, there's no reason to do that. The blank pages result in zero profit, whereas even just putting a 2nd level spell results in profit.
I think the profitability will depend on the GM - does it get sold as a normal spellbook (50% of spell value) or as a Blessed Book Plus Spells (50% of Book plus 50% of spell value). I assumed the latter, which would be more profitable. Your mileage may vary. I suppose a third option is to pro-rate the pages, assuming that every unfilled page is worth ~6 gp.
As for timing: I wasn't tracking the simulacrum's skill level and so didn't realize they can be produced in half the time. And yeah, the gp/min is a measurement of how much profit you're making given you have a book to write in.
| Cevah |
A blessed book is also better than a standard one.
PRD
A spellbook has 100 pages of parchment, and each spell takes up one page per spell level (one page each for 0-level spells).
Item .. Cost .. Weight
Spellbook, wizard's (blank) .. 15 gp .. 3 lbs.
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Slot none; Price 12,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This well-made tome is always of small size, typically no more than 12 inches tall, 8 inches wide, and 1 inch thick. All such books are durable, waterproof, bound with iron overlaid with silver, and locked.
A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a blessed book with spells without paying the material cost. This book is never found as randomly generated treasure with spells already inscribed in it.
The blessed book holds 10 times as much, and weighs one third as much.
My favorite cheese is False Focus & Masterwork Transformation. Get up to 100 gp per 2nd level spell used.
Next most is the Lyre of Building: Get 300 man days of work for each 1/2 hour of playing. That is 4800 days of manufacture per week.
/cevah
| The Sideromancer |
Dave Justus wrote:According to the rules, you can sell captured spellbooks, but there is nothing at all that says you can spell spellbooks you create, so you have to first give away your spellbooks to someone, and then capture them before you can sell them.Nothing in the rules says the DEAD condition stops a character from acting normally, but most players apply common sense.
Aside from semantics, there is no difference between a captured spellbook and a player-created book.
Of course, the Dead condition does not remove the Dying condition, which does prevent actions.
| Meirril |
By the time you're throwing around 7th level spells you could of put a few skill points into shipwright and started fabricating ships. At 10th level you would be able to fabricate Keelship (3,000gp), Longboat (10,000gp), and Warship (25,000gp). While you could argue with the GM that you could go into the wild and you have the skills to turn a raw tree into every part of a boat you'd need so you could fabricate a longboat with a collection of floating logs plus fiberous plants to make sails and rope...just pay the 20%. Even if you stick with Keelships that is 900gp profit per casting (selling at 50%). Longboat for 3,000gp profit, and 7,500gp for the Warship if you can sell it to a merchant. Savvy players will get to know who wants such a ship and use social skills to get an order at or near the full sales price.
While it isn't said explicitly, I think Fabricate could be used twice to build a bigger ship/structure. It would really just be the same as quitting for the day and picking up where you left off which is normal in any large scale construction. If this is allowed you could create Sailing Ship (10,000gp) and Galley (30,000gp). Without that you could only fabricate them around 20th level...or it might be too big. The larger ships aren't quite as profitable but lets be real here...how much market is there for Warships if you can produce 1 for every 5th level or higher slot you have every day?
Oh, and the ultimate cheese in money making is Gunsmithing. At first level you can create ammo for 1/10 the cost, up to 1,000gp per day. So 400gp in profit if you're GM is ok with that. That means crafting a pepperbox pistol after only 7 days of downtime. Add 2 extra days and it is a masterwork pistol. Add 2 more days and you're starter weapon is also paid for and masterwork. All you need is that 100gp in seed money.
| Isaac Zephyr |
The problem with all of this, beyond game intent, is no one is going to buy a Blessed Book with your spells in it. They can't use it.
No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings).
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
Buying your spellbook as a Blessed Book, means needing to decipher all of your spells which would take any wizard hours per spell (each wizard has their own way they decipher magic, this is why Read Magic is a spell), at which point they can't guaranteed prep them unless they re-write them themselves. Any wizard would sooner just pay the write cost to copy the spell from your book, into theirs and a form they can prep from without issue. (Note: I'm not 100% sure how/if it applies to the preconstructed spellbooks from UM.)
If a wizard is going to buy a Blessed Book, it's going to be for their own spells (this is why treasure ones are always empty), and if they want your spells, they aren't going to purchase them all, they're going to get what they need. Viably, your profit is the same, you could leave the copy of yourself with a copy of your spellbook (and a Blessed Book, if your spells shop ever wanted to do trades or add new spells to it's stock. The recuced write cost would be good business) and sell spells for the copy cost. However, there isn't a lump-sum option because really no one is going to buy them lump sum. And the selling occassional single spells is represented by a profession check as someone described above.
| MidsouthGuy |
I am vaguely reminded of the time my group had to bring down a monarch, so we settled on destroying the city's economy instead of traditional tactics. We flooded the markets with cheap luxury goods (which put artisans out of business), had simulacra and other cheap labor crafting 'junk' magic items everyone could afford (which put the wizards out of business), mass produced 'healing' and 'restorative' potions (which put clerics and doctors out of business), conjured and transmuted huge amounts of food we gave away for free (which gave farmers nowhere to sell their crops), and pumped so much gold into the system that inflation went sky high (which made it next to impossible to buy anything). Six months in the economy collapsed and the city fell. It was actually kind of brilliant.
So as far as all this being 'theorycraft' and 'good clean fun', I beg to differ. Really getting into the economics of a setting can have some interesting, unusual, terrifying, and strangely fun results.