As far as I know, there has never been any aesthetic changes forced on a PC due to bloodline. Though there might be some suggestions of how a bloodline might affect your appearance.I agree with the OP. As it stands, I won't ever play a wizard due to the way vancian magic works. Arcanist makes MUCH more sense.
As far as sorcerer bloodlines, PLEASE make them optional. Some of us LIKE playing a sorcerer who doesn't look like a freak.
Maybe have a "recessive" bloodline feature that nixes the powers in place of something else.
Perhaps make bloodline features class feats and let us pick metamagic feats or extra spells known in place of them?
Or better yet, have a "battle sorcerer" feat list that lets you become more gish-y!
The draconic bloodline (picked because that was my character's backstory back when I played 3.5) states that you grow scales, I believe. It also let's you sprout wings and claws, which are stuff that character wouldn't do. (He's self conscious about his image) I would pretty much never use half of that bloodlines features, which means I might as well not get those features.
Like the bloodline features, I probably wouldn't use most of the bloodline spells either. (I have Form of the Dragon 3 as a limit break/rage/last ditch/GTFO spell.)
I'm not saying that bloodlines should go away. I'm just saying that this would be a good thing to be tied to a Class Feat and have Class Feats that don't involve sprouting claws, growing scales, etc., even if you decide that you have a draconic heritage.
Couldn't you just pick a different bloodline? Even if your powers came from a dragon, they could still manifest more as an Arcane or Elemental bloodline without even breaking flavor. Dragons are more than just big lizards, after all. And once you get beyond core you can trade out bloodline powers you don't want for bloodline mutations, which tend to have better synergy for a dragon blaster anyway.
Not that I have a problem with bloodline powers becoming more modular than they were in PF1 core. Having things like Bloodline mutations available as core class feats would be dope. If the cleric is any indication, you may pick a bloodline at first level which grants an initial power, and then have the choice to spend class feats to unlock further powers, or perhaps even powers from other bloodlines.
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From the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.
4 spell lists-> arcane, divine, nature, music
Let the lineages/bloodlines cover the different types of powers that we want from spontaneous casters, and let them overlap a little so you can play a version of X caster with either the prepared or the spontaneous chassis and give that choice to the players.
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Nice presentation OP, I really liked it. Consider me signed. Like Tulius Caesar once said:
"Veni, Vidi, Favoritti"
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I really hope Paizo listen to this and make prepared casters use Arcanist casting, at the very least I will like to see them make a consult about it.
From the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.
Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.
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Nicely said. You sir deserves a statue. I hope this thread gets enough faves so that Paizo reads it and incorporate it in the playtest.
From the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.
Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
From the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
I did not mean carbon copy, of course they would not have XP cost, also Erudites were broken only with Spell to Power variant. And finally, no, Erudites did not ready powers at the beginning of day, they have unique powers per day mechanic, basically you have a limit of the number of different powers you can manifest per day but it is only expended after you manifest the power.
Here it goes how spontaneous caster will function as Erudites. Every level they learn new spells, but also could learn new spells while adventuring, something like what Witches do with their familiars, but spontaneous casters stores spells known in themsleves. In order to balance this you limit the number of unique spells they can cast per day.
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This is a strong proposal. Like the vast majority on this thread, I find Vancian casting to be very frustrating, at low levels because I never have the right spells, and especially at high levels because it takes forever to write a spell list for the day. In fact, in recent years I have moved to playing more and more spontaneous casters, or maybe a druid, who's prepared but also has great alternative options in case his preparation is voided by circumstances.
On the other hand, I think if PF2 does this, there will be a serious balance issue. In the example given by the OP, this level 5 wizarcanist has effectively 8 different spells he can cast as level 3 spells (except if he picks spells that can't be heightened, but I think they would be in the minority). That is vastly more flexibility than a level 5 or level 6 (or even level 7) sorcerer can have in PF1. Sure, once he's cast 2 spells at level 3, he's down to his level 2 slots, while the PF1 sorcerer can keep going. But I think he'll be able to finish many more types of fights in round 1 than his more spontaneous colleague.
Then of course you can revise the sorcerer class to compensate. But in that case, the risk is high with the martial/caster balance.
So, I'm afraid that for such a proposal to work, PF2 would have to cut the spell slot count further than it has done. After all, the PF1 arcanist was at a disadvantage in spell progression because of this.
From the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
I did not mean carbon copy, of course they would not have XP cost, also Erudites were broken only with Spell to Power variant. And finally, no, Erudites did not ready powers at the beginning of day, they have unique powers per day mechanic, basically you have a limit of the number of different powers you can manifest per day but it is only expended after you manifest the power.
Here it goes how spontaneous caster will function as Erudites. Every level they learn new spells, but also could learn new spells while adventuring, something like what Witches do with their familiars, but spontaneous casters stores spells known in themsleves. In order to balance this you limit the number of unique spells they can cast per day.
That is even more broken, isn't it? They would have access to all their unlimited spells known every day. Essentially, you end up with a character that always have the spell they need for a situation N times a day where N is their # of unique spells a day.
That is even more broken, isn't it? They would have access to all their unlimited spells known every day. Essentially, you end up with a character that always have the spell they need for a situation N...From the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
I did not mean carbon copy, of course they would not have XP cost, also Erudites were broken only with Spell to Power variant. And finally, no, Erudites did not ready powers at the beginning of day, they have unique powers per day mechanic, basically you have a limit of the number of different powers you can manifest per day but it is only expended after you manifest the power.
Here it goes how spontaneous caster will function as Erudites. Every level they learn new spells, but also could learn new spells while adventuring, something like what Witches do with their familiars, but spontaneous casters stores spells known in themsleves. In order to balance this you limit the number of unique spells they can cast per day.
I don't find it broken, you need to make N be lower than spells prepared for prepared casters, even more, you can limit it per spell level, something like two unique spells per level at day.
This is a strong proposal. Like the vast majority on this thread, I find Vancian casting to be very frustrating, at low levels because I never have the right spells, and especially at high levels because it takes forever to write a spell list for the day. In fact, in recent years I have moved to playing more and more spontaneous casters, or maybe a druid, who's prepared but also has great alternative options in case his preparation is voided by circumstances.
On the other hand, I think if PF2 does this, there will be a serious balance issue. In the example given by the OP, this level 5 wizarcanist has effectively 8 different spells he can cast as level 3 spells (except if he picks spells that can't be heightened, but I think they would be in the minority). That is vastly more flexibility than a level 5 or level 6 (or even level 7) sorcerer can have in PF1. Sure, once he's cast 2 spells at level 3, he's down to his level 2 slots, while the PF1 sorcerer can keep going. But I think he'll be able to finish many more types of fights in round 1 than his more spontaneous colleague.
Then of course you can revise the sorcerer class to compensate. But in that case, the risk is high with the martial/caster balance.
So, I'm afraid that for such a proposal to work, PF2 would have to cut the spell slot count further than it has done. After all, the PF1 arcanist was at a disadvantage in spell progression because of this.
I think spells in general are going to be less capable of ending fights in one round; I think spells essentially deal around 1.5 to x2 damage of a single fighter attack, enemies have more health, and fight-ending-status effects tend to only trigger on critical failures.
Also, I imagine the wizard in DM's scenario would also need a system of "lineage" or "favored" spells (as is being discussed in another thread) to limit the potential extreme versatility that comes from ubiquitous "heightened" casting.
...That is even more broken, isn't it? They would have access to all their unlimited spells known every day. Essentially, you end up with a character that always have theFrom the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
I did not mean carbon copy, of course they would not have XP cost, also Erudites were broken only with Spell to Power variant. And finally, no, Erudites did not ready powers at the beginning of day, they have unique powers per day mechanic, basically you have a limit of the number of different powers you can manifest per day but it is only expended after you manifest the power.
Here it goes how spontaneous caster will function as Erudites. Every level they learn new spells, but also could learn new spells while adventuring, something like what Witches do with their familiars, but spontaneous casters stores spells known in themsleves. In order to balance this you limit the number of unique spells they can cast per day.
Let's think about a character at level 5 in that scenario:
You still have a situation where that sorceror can cast essentially ANY third level spell twice a day, ANY second level spell twice a day, and ANY first level spell twice a day; on top of that, they can cast any of those spells a second or third time. A level 17 sorceror could cast ANY level 9 spell twice a day. I just said that spells look like they are going to be less world-ending in 2E but the scenario I just described is still bananas to me.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...That is even more broken, isn't it? They would have access to all their unlimited spells known every day. Essentially, you end up with aFrom the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
i
I did not mean carbon copy, of course they would not have XP cost, also Erudites were broken only with Spell to Power variant. And finally, no, Erudites did not ready powers at the beginning of day, they have unique powers per day mechanic, basically you have a limit of the number of different powers you can manifest per day but it is only expended after you manifest the power.
Here it goes how spontaneous caster will function as Erudites. Every level they learn new spells, but also could learn new spells while adventuring, something like what Witches do with their familiars, but spontaneous casters stores spells known in themsleves. In order to balance this you limit the number of unique spells they can cast per day.
Really? I think is in line with what an Arcanist with Quick Study could accomplish, or a Wizard who leaves slots open.
It Means You Don’t Feel Stupid
When a wizard finishes a day with utility spells uncast, they feel like they wasted the spell-slot. If they are in a situation where they know the perfect spell but didn’t prepare it because the player can’t know exactly what situation they’ll be in during the adventuring day, they feel stupid. If you’re a cleric and didn’t prepare remove disease and you fail into a garbage pit full of filth fever, otyoughs and dire rats, you’ll...
It occurs to me that the only thing "player feels stupid" scenario arcanist casting solves is having unused utility spells. And even that isn't a given-- some people always like to save a big spell in case there's another encounter that day. Not being sure if you should burn a spell slot is one of the most essentials constraints on caster tactics.
Otherwise, if you just don't have the right spell prepared (say Remove Disease in your filth fever example) it doesn't matter if you can cast that spell using all your slots or just have the one. You still failed to make the right preparations. This is also true for the spontaneous caster who may feel like they made stupid spell choices. The main advantage of the arcanist system is you can prep it once and be good if one person gets filth fever or 3 people get filth fever, but there's still a question of "do I really want to prep THIS instead of THAT?"
The thing is, we already have an answer for having the right utility option on demand, and it is called "leave some slots open" for later. People don't always DO it, but they really should. I guess there's no reason an arcanist style caster couldn't also do this. Nor am I sure open slots will be a thing in 2e anyway. Just worth pointing out
I don't have any rebuttal for your other points, so I'm not saying your larger point is wrong.
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I agree with the original poster Dudemeister.
...That is even more broken, isn't it? They would have access to all their unlimited spells known every day.From the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
i
I did not mean carbon copy, of course they would not have XP cost, also Erudites were broken only with Spell to Power variant. And finally, no, Erudites did not ready powers at the beginning of day, they have unique powers per day mechanic, basically you have a limit of the number of different powers you can manifest per day but it is only expended after you manifest the power.
Here it goes how spontaneous caster will function as Erudites. Every level they learn new spells, but also could learn new spells while adventuring, something like what Witches do with their familiars, but spontaneous casters stores spells known in themsleves. In order to balance this you limit the number of unique spells they can cast per day.
Well, quick study requires a full round action and a spell point to use so you can't really just call on that ability at a moment's notice (a cost of action economy) and it has a resource cost (fewer effective spells). I will also say that quick study is kinda broken, man.
Meanwhile, a wizard has to take 15 minutes or an hour or whatever to ready that spell (which may be a more reasonable penalty). Leaving slots open also bears the cost of having fewer options that you can call upon at a moment's notice.
On the other hand, I think if PF2 does this, there will be a serious balance issue. In the example given by the OP, this level 5 wizarcanist has effectively 8 different spells he can cast as level 3 spells (except if he picks spells that can't be heightened, but I think they would be in the minority). That is vastly more flexibility than a level 5 or level 6 (or even level 7) sorcerer can have in PF1. Sure, once he's cast 2 spells at level 3, he's down to his level 2 slots, while the PF1 sorcerer can keep going. But I think he'll be able to finish many more types of fights in round 1 than his more spontaneous colleague.I think spells in general are going to be less capable of ending fights in one round; I think spells essentially deal around 1.5 to x2 damage of a single fighter attack, enemies have more health, and fight-ending-status effects tend to only trigger on critical failures.
I didn't mean damage spells. I was thinking more along the lines of Slow, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, or Black Tentacles: Spells that, when cast on the right opponents, don't technically end the fight, but make the outcome of the fight a 95% foregone conclusion. Admittedly, maybe those spells now do that only on a critically failed save. Still...
With this proposal, we're looking at a wizarcanist with a spellbook, which potentially contains the ideal spell for every situation. The proposal makes it much easier to have the ideal spell prepared. For example, you can count that he'll always have See Invisibility, because it won't be crowded out by damage-dealing spells. This makes the caster considerably more potent... Unless, again, the slots are reduced even more than shown in the Cleric blog post.
Also, I imagine the wizard in DM's scenario would also need a system of "lineage" or "favored" spells (as is being discussed in another thread) to limit the potential extreme versatility that comes from ubiquitous "heightened" casting.
You're talking about forced specialization. Maybe that's the way to go.
...That is even more broken, isn't it? They would have access to all theirFrom the other thread I think if we landed on a mechanic like the arcanist for all prepared casters (and switched the bard over to being a prepared full caster) we could then reinvent the sorcerer into the spontaneous caster class that can do anything and gets to choose his casting tradition at 1st level, meaning you could have your spontaneous x caster several times over for whatever spellcasting traditions they wanna put out and they don't have to write a different class for each of them.Like I said in the other thread, spontaneous caster should function like 3.5 Erudites.Don't erudites have to pay an xp cost to learn spells and aren't erudites one of the most broken classes in 3.5? I would like to avoid either of those elements if possible.
Also, I think they ready their powers each day as well which would be functionally identical to the way an arcanist casts.
So, yeah: I don't know how spontaneous casters can "function like 3.5 erudites".
i
I did not mean carbon copy, of course they would not have XP cost, also Erudites were broken only with Spell to Power variant. And finally, no, Erudites did not ready powers at the beginning of day, they have unique powers per day mechanic, basically you have a limit of the number of different powers you can manifest per day but it is only expended after you manifest the power.
Here it goes how spontaneous caster will function as Erudites. Every level they learn new spells, but also could learn new spells while adventuring, something like what Witches do with their familiars, but spontaneous casters stores spells known in themsleves. In order to balance this you limit the number of unique spells they can cast per day.
You are right that a balancing factor is necessary, the idea here is that spontaneous casters would have less (maybe half) the number of unique spells per day that the number of spells a prepared caster could prepare.
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Also, I imagine the wizard in DM's scenario would also need a system of "lineage" or "favored" spells (as is being discussed in another thread) to limit the potential extreme versatility that comes from ubiquitous "heightened" casting.You're talking about forced specialization. Maybe that's the way to go.
Yeah kinda. More specifically, I am referring to a comment made by Mark Seifter in a wrap-up show last friday. He was talking about how sorcerors handle "heightened" casting and in the upcoming version of the playtest--to my understanding--a sorceror gets to choose a certain number of "lineage" spells for which she has access to all the heightened version of that spell. Aside from those few "lineage" spells, the sorceror cannot automatically heighten spells.
This arcanist casting would probably require a similar limitation chosen when the wizard prepares his spells each day.
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I like the idea of having all the prepared casters choosing their spells for the day and being able to spend spell slots to cast them, like the Arcanist currently does.
In order to work for PF2, I think what is needed is a clearly stated concept differentiating the two.
Wizards are the masters of planning. They work are to expand their repertoire of spells so that no matter what they face, they have an appropriate spell. Some of them will have backup plans within their backup plans. They love it when a plan comes together.
Sorcerers are the masters of adapting. They don’t have as wide a selection of spells as a wizard, but they know how to make the best use of those spells in any situation. They are very flexible in how they use magic and spontaneously adapt to new situations.
Having something like the above concept tells us a lot about what sort of class features each should have. The Sorcerer should have an advantage with metamagic feats, while the wizard would need to select when preparing the spells if they are to use any metamagics. The Sorcerer would have ways to change things on the fly, while the wizard would have tricks that can be set up ahead of time.
Given what class feats area probably going to look like, just give us a better arcanist.