Does the Alchemy subdomain allow potions of true strike to be made?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The Alchemy subdomain gives this ability:
Divine Alchemy (Su): You can perform a 1-minute ritual that infuses a flask of water with one of your prepared spells, creating an improvised potion that lasts until consumed or the next time you prepare spells. You can use this ability only with spells that target one or more creatures, and the maximum spell level you can infuse in this way is equal to 1 + 1 for every 4 cleric levels you have. These potions are treated as alchemist extracts for the purpose of your domain spells. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Compare these rules to the standard potion making rules:
the potion must be a spell of 3rd level or lower. It must have a casting time of less than 1 minute. It must target one or more creatures or objects. It must not have a range of personal.

The alchemy subdomain repeats one rule from the normal potions rules, and alters another. this seems to imply that the other rules of needing a casting time of less than one minute and needing to not have a range of personal may not apply. That being said, could I then use this subdomain to make potions of true strike?

Sczarni

Seems so. Not pfs legal, but home game fine. Home games also get improved invisibility potions since it's a 3rd level summoner spell somewhere.


maouse wrote:
Seems so. Not pfs legal, but home game fine. Home games also get improved invisibility potions since it's a 3rd level summoner spell somewhere.

Why would it not be Society legal?

Sczarni

Mathota wrote:
maouse wrote:
Seems so. Not pfs legal, but home game fine. Home games also get improved invisibility potions since it's a 3rd level summoner spell somewhere.
Why would it not be Society legal?

potions use only 3 spell lists for being crafted in society. Since it doesn't appear on those lists at the "legal" level (3 or less) it can't be crafted (bought) in society play. Likewise this class would not supply society legal personal spells. Crafting in society play is very limited.


maouse wrote:
Mathota wrote:
maouse wrote:
Seems so. Not pfs legal, but home game fine. Home games also get improved invisibility potions since it's a 3rd level summoner spell somewhere.
Why would it not be Society legal?
potions use only 3 spell lists for being crafted in society. Since it doesn't appear on those lists at the "legal" level (3 or less) it can't be crafted (bought) in society play. Likewise this class would not supply society legal personal spells. Crafting in society play is very limited.

This seems quite outside the usual "crafting" rules, but regardless, true strike is a 1st level wizard spell.


Bump.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Quote:
These potions are treated as alchemist extracts for the purpose of your domain spells.

Decidedly unclear. It mean that the only "improvised potion" that work as extract are those made from domain spells?

Apparently it work that way. But then it is not clear how the other "improvised potions" work.
If a generic "improvised potion" work as a potion it is subject to all the limitations of a potion.
Those that work as extract are subject to the limitation of extracts plus those of the domain.

In every instance you can't make potion of true strike unless it is a domain spell, as it is a personal use spell and the ability (apparently) make potions when used with non domain spells.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The subdomain gives these spells

Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd—touch injection, 4th—amplify elixir, 6th—delayed consumption.

So I think it’s that these improvised potions count as elixirs when used with these domain spells, so that the spells actually work.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ah, even more messy then. The spell are turned into potions (so no true strike and limited to 3rd level) and count as extract only for the purpose of using them with those 3 spells, or they are extract and the description is misleading?

The best suggestion is to ask your GM how he want to rule the ability.
I think that the RAI is that the "improvised potions" are meant to work as extract for all things, but the RAW don't say that.


bump

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

"You can use this ability only with spells that target one or more creatures"

Spells with "self" are not spells that "target one or more creatures".

But ultimately, it seems like the goal of the ability is to make extracts, which can apply personal effects. Just because you can't do it by rules, doesn't mean your DM will be unwilling to allow something that is probably intended.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
cfalcon wrote:

"You can use this ability only with spells that target one or more creatures"

Spells with "self" are not spells that "target one or more creatures".

But ultimately, it seems like the goal of the ability is to make extracts, which can apply personal effects. Just because you can't do it by rules, doesn't mean your DM will be unwilling to allow something that is probably intended.

It was my first thought, but true strike has a target of you and that is a person.


cfalcon wrote:

"You can use this ability only with spells that target one or more creatures"

Spells with "self" are not spells that "target one or more creatures".

But ultimately, it seems like the goal of the ability is to make extracts, which can apply personal effects. Just because you can't do it by rules, doesn't mean your DM will be unwilling to allow something that is probably intended.

I would agree, but the rules for normal potions call out that the spell needs to have a target of one or more creatures, and not have a range of personal. That they needed to add the second rule to exclude personal implies that personal range spells are included under spells that target one or more creatures.

Liberty's Edge

Since it refers to itself as a potion, I’d use the normal rules for potions except where Divine Alchemy explicitly changes it.

So use the normal potion rules except:
-created without using the crafting rules
-limited by your level rather than Spell Level 3
-must target creatures rather than creatures or objects
-lasts until the next time you prep spells rather than forever
-counts as an extract for your domain spells

Since none of those changes affect the “must not have a range of personal” rule, it doesn’t get around that rule.


Personal: The spell affects only you

You can't target a spell with range Personal. So no it doesn't qualify.
Also pay special attention to making Domain spells into potions. Since they are treated as extracts it means others can't use them unless you're cleric somehow gets the infusion discovery.

I will point out that a level 2 Alchemist with the Infusion discovery could make a True Strike extract and hand it off to other people to use. NPCs won't do this because they get denied their 1st level slot if the extract isn't consumed before the next day.

And if you just want True Strike on tap go buy a Cloak of the Hedge Wizard, or add the enchantment to an existing shoulder item. Expensive, but usable 1/day.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Meirril wrote:

Personal: The spell affects only you

You can't target a spell with range Personal. So no it doesn't qualify.
Also pay special attention to making Domain spells into potions. Since they are treated as extracts it means others can't use them unless you're cleric somehow gets the infusion discovery.

I will point out that a level 2 Alchemist with the Infusion discovery could make a True Strike extract and hand it off to other people to use. NPCs won't do this because they get denied their 1st level slot if the extract isn't consumed before the next day.

And if you just want True Strike on tap go buy a Cloak of the Hedge Wizard, or add the enchantment to an existing shoulder item. Expensive, but usable 1/day.

True Strike wrote:


Range personal
Target you

Even if it is a fixed target, it has a Target line, so it is a targeted spell and it target one creature.

It that enough for the ability to work? The description of the domain power is bad enough that it is unclear.
The probable interpretation is that the spells are turned into potions, with all the limitations of potions (beside the level limit) but when the domain spells that affect extracts are used it is treated as an extract.
The problem is that it is a probable interpretation. Better writing would have helped.


Meirril wrote:
I will point out that a level 2 Alchemist with the Infusion discovery could make a True Strike extract

Even that is debatable, as True Strike requires a Focus and thus cannot be made into an Extract.


VRMH wrote:
Meirril wrote:
I will point out that a level 2 Alchemist with the Infusion discovery could make a True Strike extract
Even that is debatable, as True Strike requires a Focus and thus cannot be made into an Extract.

That issue is actually vaguer than you might think, due to this FAQ

Avanced_Players_guide_FAQ wrote:

Alchemist and infusions: Can I use the infusion discovery to create an infused extract of a personal-range formula (such as true strike), which someone else can drink?

Yes, you can. The design team may decide to close this loophole in the next printing of the Advanced Player's Guide.

The implication being that extracts of true strike must be possible, since infusions of true strike apparently are possible.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
VRMH wrote:
Meirril wrote:
I will point out that a level 2 Alchemist with the Infusion discovery could make a True Strike extract
Even that is debatable, as True Strike requires a Focus and thus cannot be made into an Extract.

True strike is in the alchemist spell list, but he can't cast it as it has a focus components. Nice.

Several spells in that list have similar problems: invalid targets, focus components and so on. It was never truly resolved.


The whole thing is a bit vague. The Crux of this particular I suppose is weather these "improvised potions" follow the rest of the rules for standard potions.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Does the Alchemy subdomain allow potions of true strike to be made? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.