|
As the title says. For a long time, I have played D&D and Pathfinder, and for a long time, one of my favorite classes has been the Cleric. Both the ability suite the cleric possesses and the role play aspects of being a chosen agent of a higher power, sent out to spread their deity's faith and message, have always appealed to me as a player.
However, with starfinder getting dropped, a move made in that game DEEPLY troubled me when it came to this edition...and that was the decision to make Mystics not have any mechanical use for Charisma. While I can understand it in the context of the mystic class; a mystic may not serve a deity, and may not be an evangelist...and for those that are, the massive skill bonuses from channel skill compensated for their lower charisma when it came to social skill checks.
However, thats not why I am troubled. The reason I am troubled is that the wisdom-sad precedent set both by it and the 5e cleric have, in my eyes, set a dangerous trend when it comes to the role play integrity of the cleric class and what it is meant to represent. Thing is, clerics, by virtue of what they are, SHOULD have the mechanical option to make a decent charisma score benefit them in a more direct and potent way than just social skill checks. Why? Because, while there can be cloistered clerics who don't have a way with words and people due to being sequestered from the world to contemplate their faith, when myself and many other gamers imagine an "iconic" cleric, we imagine a very passionate, fiery, and zealous personality that is able to sway others to see the light(or power if evil) of their deity...all things that, in both role play and mechanical terms, require having a good cha.
The iconic cleric who evangelizes, spreads the faith and has a passionate belief in their deity and forceful, fiery, zealous personality is extremely iconic, and what many who imagine a cleric envision. Thus, I personally feel that to keep this "archetype" of what a cleric can be alive and well in the game, that clerics need some mechanical use for charisma beyond skills, which the SF mystic and 5e cleric don't.
Why? Well, if all clerics need cha for is social skills, then mechanically, a cleric is punished for investing in cha. There is no way around this fact. With cha impacting no defenses (I still think it should factor into will saves over wis, but that's a discussion for another time), if a cleric has no in-class feature(s) or power(s) that utilize cha then they are, in fact, mechanically worse off for investing in cha over another stat such as str (melee attack), dex (AC and reflex saves), Con (health and fort saves), Int (skill ranks/points). Every other stat provides a stronger mechanical benefit for the cleric than cha does, and as a result if channel energy is shifted to working off wisdom like the SF mystic instead of Cha, then the charismatic evangelizing preacher cleric is DEAD as a mechanically viable character concept, as cha will always be THE stat you will want to dump as a cleric.
Thus, to keep this kind of cleric alive and mechanically viable, I an making this passionate plea to keep the Cleric's channel energy based on Charisma, as it should be. If this is not possible, then I would at least like to know that their are feats or archetypes that let a cleric make use of cha mechanically for something other than skill bonuses, somehow, such as say an "evangelist" archetype for the class that swaps them from a wis-sad class to a cha-sad class, or say making undead controlled with necromancy spells and/or max summons you can control with summoning spells cha-based.(which should be applied for spellcasting overall if implemented for one class, in my opinion)
If at all possible, if any devs read this thread, I would greatly appreciate re-assurance that clerics have SOME way in PF 2e to make charisma not their go-to dump stat and use it mechanically for something beyond just social skill bonuses. Any and all thoughts and input from devs (or anybody) would be appreciated!
|
Admittedly, it IS strange that clerics cast with Wisdom, when they seem much more suited to giving their message out with Charisma- especially since Paladins also cast with Charisma. Druids and Rangers are already Wisdom casters, but if they're really interested, they could easily swap Sorcerers to be Wisdom based with little to no change in fluff. On the flip side, having Clerics be better suited to talking things over and spreading the good word makes far more sense with the playstyle I've seen every cleric player I have used. ESPECIALLY since now is the time to make this change, while Oracle isn't in the picture yet (and when they are, make them Wisdom instead!)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would love if they pull an Arcanist on us (or a 4e, if you prefer)
When leveling up a character, you have different paths and options open up for your character based on what stats you chose at creation.
For example,
When leveling up a cleric, you can choose between 3 class feats: one is based on Charisma, one is based on Strength and one is based on Wisdom
A cleric who choses all their class feats based off charisma will play and feel different from a claric based on strength
Just like an Arcanist right now can choose or ignore exploits based on Charisma, depending on her stats
Do you like this idea? (I sure do!)
|
|
That would be an interesting idea. I assume they would still cast off Wisdom, but could take either Str or Cha on as a secondary stat via feats, or just take none of those feats abs be entirely Wis-SAD? If they go this route, Paizo would have to make sure the Cha and Str feats are in all ways equal to each other power wise, and slightly better than the wis feats (as a reward for taking on MAD), otherwise it becomes a case of Cha STILL being an auto-dump.
As for clerics casting off Cha....I personally would LOVE that, but I am not sure that Paizo will make such a massive departure from tradition like that. Like, IDEALLY sorc would just be an archetype of wizard and not acore class, with the core Cha Full caster instead being the cleric.,..but I am not holding my breath for that.
I mean just like the Arcanist!
For the arcanist, casting stat is Intelligence, and an arcanist can work well with high Intelligence only.
However, IF you choose to have a high charisma, you can access and use proficiently some interesting and unique exploits
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That would be a nice compromise, I think, though the only issue is the Cha exploits for arcanist a are strictly worse mechanically than the non-Cha ones, so if this is the route they go i’d Like the Cha (and Str) options to actually be mechanically strong, unlike the mechanically weak Cha exploits for the arcanist.
Like, I think an example of this would be to, say, have each “ability build” focus on a different aspect of cleric-ing. Since all clerics will use Wis regardless, I like the idea of the wis feats being the general spellcasting feats, allowing a Str or Cha clerics to still get mileage out of them since they will also want wis, while also making the wis-sad “caster cleric” build possible. Str Feats would turn the cleric into more of a warpiest/Gish while the Cha feats could be used to, say, make in-combat healing and channeling viable and boost Necromancy/undead pet mastery. (So Cha clerics are not shafted by going evil/evil Cha clerics have a viable build despite not being good at healing. Also having the Channeling and Necro-Mastery Feats work off the same stat (Cha) makes sense themeaticly, since Channeling negative energy and Necromancy have always had a close association)
This would be kinda like an MMO in that it would create “specs” within the class, the breakdowns being as such:
Offensive Caster -Wis SAD Cleric
Melee/Gish - Wis/Str Cleric
In-Combat Healer (if good-leaning)/Necromancer (if evil-leaning) - Wis/Cha Cleric
Please consider making the new cleric so it can either become the current warpriest or become a priest similar to the one in New Paths Compilation by Kobold Publishing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This represents another opportunity for Paizo to fix the bland mess that is the cleric....
IMO channeling is and has always been a 95% waste of class feature and a wound in the clerics side that has caused all manner of problems ever since PF began
There have been loads of 3rd party stuff all poiting a massive glowing stick to the correct direction.
It wont happen but what should happen (and should have been since Day 1) is...
Cleric = Warpriest (thus keeping true to the original notion D&D of a holy warrior)
'Priest' = D6 half BAB divine (aka feeble old wise man in robes that brings down wrath of god.... etc
But since this obvious gap has never been addressed in 10 years, its highly doubtful that this will happen. ITKs Ive previously spoken to have said that a D6 divine will never happen.... bizarre and a waste but hey ho!!
Admittedly, it IS strange that clerics cast with Wisdom, when they seem much more suited to giving their message out with Charisma-
I was going to answer that if you compare a cleric to say... a Catholic priest, a modern priest has to study for years before becoming a priest. But then again, I guess that would make them Intelligence based rather than Wisdom based. Hmmm.
Anyway, I think the Wisdom requirement is often based on the idea that you have to be wise in order to understand the will of the gods or something. Charisma by itself gets you followers, but doesn't get you anything from a god.
|
|
Admittedly, it IS strange that clerics cast with Wisdom, when they seem much more suited to giving their message out with Charisma-I was going to answer that if you compare a cleric to say... a Catholic priest, a modern priest has to study for years before becoming a priest. But then again, I guess that would make them Intelligence based rather than Wisdom based. Hmmm.
Anyway, I think the Wisdom requirement is often based on the idea that you have to be wise in order to understand the will of the gods or something. Charisma by itself gets you followers, but doesn't get you anything from a god.
Yeah, which is fine. I am not against clerics casting off or using their wisdom. What I am against is them not having a mechanical use for Cha beyond a handful of skills. Much of what a cleric is often expected to do RP-wise demands a decent charisma, and if the class has no mechanical use for the ability beyond skills like diplomacy, then it becomes THE SINGLE BEST ABILITY TO DUMP for the class...and RP wise, IT SHOULD NOT BE...as much of what a cleric wants to do and is often expected to do demands having a solid Cha (such as a 14 at 1st level, which seems just about right for a Wis primary class that also wants to be fairly charismatic)
Always had trouble getting CHA on Clerics because they get MAD pretty fast if you want them to be warriors as opposed to trying to be a wizard.
There should be some viable CHA builds, however, even if they have a different role. That stats fits them more than WIS in some cases, such as Cleric of Demon lords and stuff like that.
|
|
Thats what I said above. Make wis the casting stat, but have some builds that can take some cha without being mechanically punished for doing so. I suggested above that one way this could be done is to have feats that either let you be a war cleric, or let you leverage your charisma to either make in-combat healing viable (if you worship a more goodly deity) or be a necromancer/undead master (if you worship a more sinister deity) This would work best thematically since cha was always tied to turn/rebuke undead and channeling, so having the cha-build be the one who focuses on healing power (for good-leaning deities) or necromancy (for evil-leaning deities) would be most fitting for the history clerics have with the stat...
As someone who houseruled Mystics to be CHA-based in Starfinder, I would TOTALLY support the idea of Clerics (and all divine casters in general) going for Charisma, with Druids and other "nature based" casters going for Wisdom. I would also make Sorcerer INT based, like other arcane casters.
I suppose psychic could go for either, maybe Wisdom better, but it's not a pressing concern as it's not something that need to be there in the core book.
But yes, Charisma for Clerics make soooo much sense, in my opinion.
Reddit has a Garycon report that use activated magic items, including wands, require using a character pool of 1+Cha (that 1 may have been his level). So everyone benefits from Cha in a big way now at low level.
This is interesting. Might also be related to what Erik and Logan told us in the Know Direction podcast: to maximize your healing, you'd want to upgrade your healing wands. If you can only use magic items... let's say... your level +CHA per day, using 3 charges of 1d8+1 CLW will be a waste.
In the podcast they also talked about how you will like to focus on a few magic items sometimes, then use some more in other situations. I "bet" this is related to the Lvl+CHA (or whatever) "use magic device points". If you use 3 of those points to "use" your armor and weapon and cloak for the day, you might have 5 more to spend on magic wands. And so on.
Someone else suggested on the "Do This, Not That" thread, and I made a similar post somewhere on the Homebrew forums way back--I would be very much in favor of rethinking how mental stats are tied to casting:
*Intelligence represents hermetic, rule-based magic, the sorry that is practiced by intense study, perhaps had more emphasis on material components a la sympathetic links. Wizards and Alchemists, per usual.
*Wisdom represents inborn and instinctive magic, the sort practiced by self reflection, or being in tune with the world around you. Druids per usual, but it would also become the standard for Sorcerers and Spontaneous casters in general.
* Charisma repeats magic gained by bargaining with or propitiating a powerful patron to intercede on your behalf, thus placing Clerics and Paladins in this category. Bards would also be here, with the ties to performance and music their magic has being envisioned on telling a story and convincing the universe it's true.
I would like to see a blog showing us how the new cleric is going to work. There are a lot of good points in this thread.