| BretI |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is correct, but poorly stated.
The Ghost Operative has a Dex based trick attack skill (Stealth) that doesn't add to the list of possible trick attack skills.
The other Dex based skills provide a different skill to use. For example, the Daredevil can use Acrobatics for their trick attack.
The other skills are not based on Dex, and they get +4 to the Trick Attack.
Vertasi
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i'm still not getting this. why would a Ghost only get a +1 for the skill they use for Trick Attack, but a Hacker still gets a +4 for Computers? why does it matter what the skill or governing attribute is?? it seems like one aspect of the character is getting nerfed while others are not - why would an operative character select the Ghost path if they can get a +4 bonus for just about any other path?? and this doesn't even take into account the couple of paths that DON'T get a bonus for their skill at all, such as Thief! their bonus is they can use Sleight of Hand to hide their weapon. that's it, no +4 for a Sleight of Hand check at all. doesn't seem fair - they should ALL get a +4 to the relevant skill, or reduce them ALL to a +1, or whatever the decided bonus should be, but it needs to be the same across the board (IMO). this is a class feature - maybe it needs to be renamed to decouple it from the "trick attacks" that are an attack option - maybe call them Operative Tricks or something...
| pithica42 |
Because it is assumed that, since an Operative's primary stat is Dexterity, then Dexterity will be their highest stat. The DC's for trick attack were made assuming that most operatives would max this out (or get pretty dang close to it). It looks to me like they're assuming that for most things (of even CR), most players should have a 50-75% chance to succeed, depending on tactics and how optimized they are.
In order for an operative using a Int or Wis skill to be able to reliably hit the DC's they needed an extra boost (maybe +4 is too much, but they definitely needed a boost to use those skills, with the DCs). The Dex based specializations don't need the boost (to hit the DCs), so they didn't get one. However, since Ghost, specifically, also does not give you a new skill to pair with trick attack (where Daredevil and Thief do), the thought was that there needed to be some balance specifically within the Dex skills. +4 was too high, so they dropped it to +1.
They aren't all created equal, so they don't all get the same boosts. The boosts are an attempt to make it fair. It's certainly debatable whether the bonuses as listed do or do not succeed in doing so, but it seems obvious that the underlying DC's wouldn't be fair comparing the Dex/Non-Dex and non-bonus skills without some modifications.
| ashuramarsh |
I think they are getting shafted in their own way. I was doing some calculations based on a Dex 16 Ghost vs. say an operative with Wis or Cha 12.
The way it stacks up now, with a stats of 12, the others get a +1 ability to hit over the ghost. Where as the ghost will have a +11 to perform a TA, this is a 55% to hit. The Cha or Wis guy gets a +12 to hit, or about 60% and will advance his hit ration much faster than the ghost.
GHost Dex 16
Stealth TA +11 (+3 dex, +3 class skill, +3 skill focus, +1 rank, +1 ghost bonus).
Let's say Detective Wis 12
Sense Motive +12 (+1 wis, +3 class, +3 skill focus, +1 rank, +4 detective bonus).
| Kudaku |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The ghost operative has no real secondary stat, all he cares about is dexterity. Most ghosts will start with a dexterity of 18 whereas for a detective that's a hard buy-in that means either limiting his TA modifier or hurting his fortitude saves. Every time the ghost buys a Dexterity personal upgrade he improves every aspect of his character (attack, AC, (reflex) saves, resolve points, Trick Attack) whereas the Detective has to choose between TA/will save (Wisdom boost) and everything else (dexterity boost).
Since you assume a wis of 12 on the Detective I'll give both operatives 18 dex baseline, and run comparisons at levels 1, 3, and 5.
Level 1 Ghost Dex 18
Stealth TA +12 (+4 dex, +3 class skill, +3 skill focus, +1 rank, +1 ghost bonus).
Level 1 Detective Wis 12
Sense Motive TA +12 (+1 wis, +3 class, +3 skill focus, +1 rank, +4 detective bonus).
On level 3 they buy a personal upgrade. I'll assume they both get a dex implant since (in my opinion) it is by far the better option also for the detective.
Level 3 Ghost Dex 20
Stealth TA +15 (+5 dex, +3 class skill, +3 skill focus, +3 rank, +1 ghost bonus).
Level 3 Detective Wis 12
Sense Motive TA +14 (+1 wis, +3 class, +3 skill focus, +3 rank, +4 detective bonus).
On level 5 they both get an ability score upgrade from leveling. Both operatives upgrade Dex and Wis as well as two other ability scores. The detective's TA improves by 1 as his wisdom increases to 14, the Ghost's TA is unchanged.
Level 5
Level 5 Ghost Dex 21
Stealth TA +17 (+5 dex, +3 class skill, +3 skill focus, +5 rank, +1 ghost bonus).
Level 5 Detective Wis 14
Sense Motive TA +17 (+2 wis, +3 class, +3 skill focus, +5 rank, +4 detective bonus).
Past level 6 it doesn't really matter since TA can be assumed to automatically succeed at levels 7 and higher. The level 7 TA would have a modifier of ~+20 (+6 dex/+3 Wis, +3 class skill, +3 edge, +7 ranks, +1/+4 ghost/detective), allowing him to T10 and successfully TA enemies that are up to APL+3 (an epic difficulty encounter).
The Detective could opt to put his first ability score booster in Wisdom or lower his starting Dex to 16 and start with 14 Wis, but both of these options will hurt his resolve, initiative, attack bonus and armor class.
On the whole, they're fairly well balanced. Assuming equal dexterity they'll remain within +1 modifier of one another which, in the grand scheme of things, is a very small gap. By that point it's more interesting to consider what your specialization exploit is going to be and what skills you really want to be able to T10 at all times.
Note that we haven't considered race options in the comparisons so far, which can throw this out of whack. If one operative picks a race with a +2 TA skill modifier (ysoki springs to mind for the ghost) and the other one does not, it'll affect the balance. Conversely if the Detective picks a race with his ideal ability score boosts (+dex, +wis, -int or -cha) to get 18 dex/14 wis baseline the point buy difference will be less pronounced.
| Pogiforce |
My operative is an Android, Hacker specialization with a 14 Int. After operative's Edge, Skill Focus, Ranks, Class Skill, and me also investing Skill Synergy into the skill I have a +13 to Computers at first level. That means I have a +17 to Trick Attack with computers at first level, against enemies whose TA DC is going to be around 21/22, 23 if it's a boss level enemy. That means I have anywhere between a 70 to 80% chance of success.
A ghost who builds 16 Dex, skill focus operatives edge skill synergy, would have one higher base score than me at +14. However, they would only get a +1 to their TA which means they'd have a +15 to TA, with a TA DC in the same range meaning their chance to succeed is 60 to 70%. Their chance to succeed is 10% less than mine, with my ability score that my skill is based off of being lower than theirs. However, I did have to invest in a second Ability score to make this work. (Int was really a no brainer since it gives me even more skill versatility, but still). just trying to see it from both sides.
In my opinion, the Ghost's bonus to Stealth should probably be increased to a +2 to keep it more in line with the others at first level.
Edited to fix my math.
| Kudaku |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As Castor points out you're stacking insight bonuses - it's a very common mistake for operative players and I wonder if it's not a big part of why some people think operatives are too strong. Your computer trick attack skill check is actually 1 (rank) +3 (trained) +3 (skill focus) +2 (ability score) +4 (specialization) for a total of +13. VS a CR 1/2/3 enemy you have a 60%/55%/50% chance of making the trick attack skill check stick.
Other than that I refer you to my previous post, just replace "detective" with "hacker" and "wisdom" with "intelligence". The extra +1 from 14 INT means the hacker will be +1 ahead levels 1-2, they'll be even levels 3-4, then the hacker will be +1 ahead again levels 5-6 and beyond that it doesn't matter since TA will never fail past level 7. If the hacker had 12 INT (or if we implement your suggestion to up the Ghost spec to +2) the hacker would be even levels 1-2, behind one point levels 3-4, and even levels 5-6. IE we're talking about less than a single point of skill bonus overall.
The main draw of Ghost (and the other dex-based operative specializations) is that they're Single Attribute Dependent - they can spring for 18 dex baseline with minimal downsides, will benefit more from picking up ability score boosters and can pick whatever secondary they want - among other things, it's a good specialization for bruiser operatives.
| Pogiforce |
Yeah I just got schooled about operatives in another thread, I hadn't realized they were all classed as insight bonuses. Honestly has me a little miffed, I'd understand it being Skill Focus and Skill Synergy are both insight bonuses as they are both feats and skill synergy has the additional utility of making a skill a class skill instead, but I don't understand why they're going to give you both Operative's Edge and SKill Focus if they don't work in tandem. Now I have to come up with a different feat for my operative...
| Kudaku |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I just got schooled about operatives in another thread, I hadn't realized they were all classed as insight bonuses. Honestly has me a little miffed, I'd understand it being Skill Focus and Skill Synergy are both insight bonuses as they are both feats and skill synergy has the additional utility of making a skill a class skill instead, but I don't understand why they're going to give you both Operative's Edge and SKill Focus if they don't work in tandem. Now I have to come up with a different feat for my operative...
The insight thing could really do with a callout in the class writeup or something. I 100% agree it's counter-intuitive but it's actually a pretty nice solution to skill bonuses scaling out of control.
Basically every class in Starfinder that gets a class-specific skill bonus (mechanic's Bypass, Technomancer's Techlore, Envoy's expertise etc) are all insight-type and so don't stack with Skill Focus or Skill Synergy. The upside of this is that a class that doesn't get such a skill bonus (like a soldier) can partially keep up by investing a feat in the skill. The soldier will probably never be quite as good at engineering as a mechanic or hacker operative, but he's at least in the running. It also keeps the expected skill checks within a closer range, mostly avoiding the Pathfinder problem with skill checks where players with some system mastery could dip many different types of bonuses to boost their skill bonus into the stratosphere.
As for the operative specifically, gaining Skill Focus at level 1 gives operatives a good skill boost in their niche area at low levels when they need it to to justify being "the skills guy" and land Trick Attacks, but since Skill Focus doesn't stack with Operative's Edge it keeps them from being all-dominant skill monsters down the line. When you reach level 7 and Operative's Edge first overlaps with the skill focus bonus you gain Skill Mastery. Skill Mastery allows you to T10 on any skills you have Skill Focus in, even in combat. This is a really useful ability in its own right. Right out of the gate it means you will always succeed on Trick Attack skill checks, and it also opens up new opportunities down the line. Skill Focus: Piloting is a great option for operative pilots since it means they'll almost never fail a stunt check in Starship Combat, for example.