Hey folks, anyone got any idea on what the rules/laws would be about summoning entropic (chaotic template) outsiders in Cheliax? I imagine the reaction would be less intense than demons or devils in Mendev and Lastwall, but am unsure how much. we are going through hells rebels, and one of my players wants to play a Morphic Savant Summoner/Vigilante. I'm letting him do it because its a cool idea, but am having trouble convincing him that summoning chaotic creatures in his civilian identity (as distinct from the vigilante one where I thought he intended) is a bad idea. thoughts?
Show, don't tell (well, you can tell him once OOC, like you did.) After that, the 2nd day in town, have a much more powerful summoner be spotted around town and he summons an entropic creature with a phrase like "What're they gonna do?" Then have. bound/called demon or devil pop in, banish/dismiss/mop the floor with the powerful summoned creature and grab the summoner, saying "Don't try anything or it'll get worse!"
A better move would be the devil making a touch attack and having energy arc across the summoned creature and the same thing happens to the summoner.
Maybe it's one of numerous bound devils who need to catch 'rogue' or flagrant summoners to fulfill service. Have a few more pop in right after the first, each one different or fiercer than the last. Have the first say something like "Sorry boys, you're too slow. This one's mine. He should have at least tried to conceal his identity and actions. See you back in Hell." As he vanishes, have one of the biggest meanest devils growl "Ragh! I can't wait to get my talons on the next fool who slips up!" and then have the teleport away.
Or at least, something like that, depending on how showy you want to be.
Its a workable idea, but that pulls pretty close to railroading, I think he is of the opinion that such discrimination has no basis. he has asked for me to show him where in the rules it says that entropic creatures are illegal, and I'm a bit at a loss. I could show him loads of contextual stuff of course. but I'm trying to get him to understand that I am not singling him out or inventing policy to limit his option. I did approve the build, but I need him to understand the risk he is taking. I try to run as internally consistent and lore friendly a world as possible, but just cannot grok a situation where a realm Proteans, Quiploth and Azata are welcome (or even legal) in a land who's laws are explicitly based on the (un)holy text of Asmodeous, a being who is more or less 'Harsh Order' incarnate and is known to despise such beings. On the other hand Cheliax does allow the worship of most chaotic deity's (save in the actual city the campaign takes place in, but that's very much a change in routine), at least as long as Asmodeous comes first. In that line of thought, am I going to far in extrapolating how the world works? it is my job to do so after all? does anyone have hard lore or game mechanics that states how such beings are treated there? the closest I can come to a hard line argument is that the laws are explicitly based on the rules of Asmodeous, a summon spell has the descriptor of the beings summoned, Entropic beings are chaotic, and chaotic beings cannot be summoned by clerics of Asmodeous, therefore summoning of entropic beings are illegal in the country of Cheliax. anyone got a better one? arguing either case?
Plain and Simple, if there is a Lawful Ward vs Chaos any where in town, He Can Not Summon. Period. No Summoning Chaos with a block radius of a Church of Asmodeous, or any warded government establishment. The Rule of Law in Cheliax is The Rule of Law. A Hell Knight on patrol may take note and start an investigation, with help, they are not stupid after all. It's not railroading if the player intends to be a visible disturbance, they should expect a harsh response. Cheliax didn't become the power it is pulling punches.
All I can find quickly (on my phone) is that Chelaxian laws are based on Asmodean Disciplines and that they are 'expansive and intrusive'. As far as I'm concerned, that means if you want to say Cheliax has a law about the color of underwear you can wear to bed during the full moon, there probably is. Does that mean it's enforced? Probably not often, but there's likely definitely laws and ordinances about summoning or even any use of magic.
Your player asking you to write out or codify every law is not reasonable. Claims that you railroading them by telling them the laws or describing a scene is as silly as if you said "There are no laws against cannabalism specifically listed" (There probably are) and him claiming you're forcing him to be a cannibal.
Here's another way to approach the question: What penalties, if any, would a summoner expect to face in ANY civilized lands if their summoned creatures wreak havoc on the city's property or citizens? The larger the settlement, the more likely that there is a relevant law that a PC might break, because there's a precedent that made the law necessary. And the more likely that local law enforcement has agents trained in facing such threats.
This applies to using outsiders of any alignment, but in almost any nation, the unpredictability and obvious malice of a qlippoth or protean is going to cause far more concern than most celestials.
Now, think about how concerns about "reckless use of magic" and "collateral damage" might be addressed in Cheliax, a nation where barrister is one of the noblest of professions....
How much is a spellcaster going to get hassled walking around Cheliax with a Lyrakien Azata as a familiar?
I mean, if you're level 7 you're already going to scan as Chaotic and Good, so would they do anything about it?
PossibleCabbage wrote: How much is a spellcaster going to get hassled walking around Cheliax with a Lyrakien Azata as a familiar?
I mean, if you're level 7 you're already going to scan as Chaotic and Good, so would they do anything about it?
On the one hand it's a perfect excuse to hassle you, and without it people likely wouldn't know to use detect chaos or see alignment on you. On the other it's a declaration of power; you're a spellcaster of at least 7th level, and being chaotic you're probably a bit unpredictable. I can see less suicidal types deciding to look the other way as you walk past.
Good discussion. and I have a few ideas to run by the player. I don't think he plans on being a menace to world in his civilian ident, but just having them there is probably provocation enough. This is made worse by his minor impulse control issues, and I think there is a real risk he will get id'eed as a rabble rouser pretty quick. This is not a safe position to be in for this campaign. Doubly so when it could link to the other players. one of the house rules is every player takes levels in vigilante, but that separation of identity's could get shot in the foot pretty easily by being a known chaos summoner in both identity's. I considered offering a liscense that he could buy giving him the right to summon chaotic beings (pending regular 'inspections') but it doesn't do a thing for secrecy bit if he also does it in vigilante mode. its pretty hard to hide such a skill in a thing in a city populated by Hellknights.
This is a good discussion, and it plays into the theme many question about religious freedom in Cheliax as well.
The supposition of why would Asmodeans allow it, or wouldn't they do anything about powerful obvious chaotic PC/NPC's or rival religions can be addressed almost the same (in my eyes.) The Lawful Evil attitude (and Asmodean faith) values the insidious corruption of innocents & enemies. Slowly crushing the will and good character of the individual is paramount in maintaining their powerbase.
It stands to reason, having competing religions around (and preventing them from becoming too powerful) provides fodder for that most infernally delicious turn of events; causing the faithful of another deity turn and reject their previous faith, or the collapse of a rival church's congregation.
Likewise, I do not think a powerful chaotic any class NPC/PC's go unnoticed in major Chelaxian cities and towns. I believe if they are obvious, they are marked, so to speak. Not openly confronted unless they are actively violating or threatening the orderly status quo, but loosely surveilled, tolerated, with future plans of turning them.
Possibly even competing factions with divergent plans to see whom can turn the enemy first and how for bragging rights...
Honestly the sense I've gotten about Cheliax is that, as totalitarian as it is (so any particular person has reason to suspect that they are under surveillance), they really don't have the resources or the will to do this nearly as often as they like, so a lot of people slip through the cracks.
It's essentially a rule by fear, there is a veneer of stability clearly visible from the outside but Cheliax itself is very frail.
Is there a ban on celestial summoning? I'd expect there to actually be a lot of non-good arcane casters who use them either because they can smite demons, rivals and runaway devils if not outright reverse malconvoker (forcing/tricking the legions of heaven to do your evil bidding is something Asmodeus would not doubt encourage).
I don't think there is a ban on celestials. though they might do so for Azata. I imagine that even then they are about the least prosecuted of the chaotic outsiders, if only because chasing them down is bad PR. Nobody's going to give a hoot if you string up a quiploth or stick a demon in an iron maiden.
How open does your Summoner intend to be about summoning Chaotic creatures? Reaction to them might also depend upon where and to whom this is done. Commoner witnesses might be a little hazy on their knowledge of what you summoned, and if you don't do it against regime agents/sympathizers, it might take a while for the word to get out that you have done anything off-beat, especially if you manage to come up with a convincing bluff for Commoners that have the temerity to ask questions (rather than telling them to get lost). Cheliax is a totalitarian state, but from what I understand, outside Egorian and a few other key places it is a rather slipshod totalitarian state.
UnArcaneElection wrote: outside Egorian and a few other key places it is a rather slipshod totalitarian state. I don't see what halfling farriers have to do with this, it's just something they are naturally good at, is all- good with animals, low to the ground, etc.
I dont own the cheliax book (and Im not even sure if local laws are in there) but while it may not be illegal (although I kind of think it is because devils dont play well with others unless they have something to gain) I think it would be discouraged either by the Hellknights, the zealots from the church of Asmodeus, or the population in general.
That said neighbors informing local authorities about what they see is a common theme in Cheliax (theres a passage to it in inner sea world guide iirc). This could easily draw unwanted attention toward the player as Hellknights come to investigate reports or the church of Asmodeus starts looking for a rumored "heretic". Besides these acts of very real danger you could just have Chelish citizens throw rocks, vegtables, and debris at the eidolon and/or summoner before forming a mob to chase him out of town
The common townsperson does not practice diabolism, its the monarchy, nobles, and often high ranking government officials that are in Asmodeus pocket and I highly doubt they would practice diabolism openly
PossibleCabbage wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: outside Egorian and a few other key places it is a rather slipshod totalitarian state. I don't see what halfling farriers have to do with this, it's just something they are naturally good at, is all- good with animals, low to the ground, etc. Shhhh . . . don't tell anyone that they're secretly infiltrating Cheliax with freedom . . . .
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