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Although there are some spells which are particularly called "ray", the term seems to have been used as flavour text in some places (e.g. Disintegration) leading me to believe that "ray" was never meant to be a game concept as such and that it is really just synonymous to ranged touch.
Am I right?
Or do you, for example, have to take Weapon Focus( Ray ) and Weapon Focus (ranged touch) separately?
Richard
As I understand it: 'Ray' is a term meant to explain a category of spells, and 'Ranged Touch' is a term mean to explain a kind of dice roll. However all rays required a ranged touch roll to hit, causing the confusion.
So ray is definitely a game concept, but I think the issue here is mostly one of semantics. I don't think there's any ranged touch spell that isn't considered a ray (please shoot me a link if you think you found one), so to answer your example you should only have to take Weapon Focus (Ray).
I hope that helps!
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It's only a ray if it says it's a ray.
It's funny like that.
As others said, no.
Acid Splash is not, but Disrupt Undead and Ray of Frost are.
You are correct that there aren’t many Ray spells.
Although there are some spells which are particularly called "ray", the term seems to have been used as flavour text in some places (e.g. Disintegration) leading me to believe that "ray" was never meant to be a game concept as such and that it is really just synonymous to ranged touch.
I am confused by your reading of Disintegrate using 'ray' as flavor text. That it is a ray is mechanically important.
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If it says "Effect ray", it's a ray. Otherwise, it isn't.
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Blahpers is correct - you can find the rules under aiming a spell:effects by clicking here.
For what it's worth in my home games I allow weapon focus(ranged touch) and weapon focus(melee touch) for simplicity and to make it slightly more tempting - no-one has taken me up on either yet.
Well, we know that Improved Critical (touch) is valid, so why not Weapon Focus (ranged touch)?Weapon Focus (ranged touch) isn't valid, but Weapon Focus (ray) is specifically allowed for spells of the ray category.
I am unaware of any method to acquire Weapon Focus (snowball).
Ranged touch and touch were valid options in 3.5 and the feats in question are pretty much direct ports from those days. With the 'backward compatibility' claim from pathfinder's creation, I'd assume that rule elements that where retained work the same unless it's pointed out as working differently.
And some might ask 'why is ray spelled out as different than ranged touch?': Well, that's because rays don't HAVE to use ranged touch, "You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack." As such, if you manage to find a non-touch ray, it works with them too.
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Well, we know that Improved Critical (touch) is valid, so why not Weapon Focus (ranged touch)?Weapon Focus (ranged touch) isn't valid, but Weapon Focus (ray) is specifically allowed for spells of the ray category.
I am unaware of any method to acquire Weapon Focus (snowball).
Ranged touch and touch were valid options in 3.5 and the feats in question are pretty much direct ports from those days. With the 'backward compatibility' claim from pathfinder's creation, I'd assume that rule elements that where retained work the same unless it's pointed out as working differently.
And some might ask 'why is ray spelled out as different than ranged touch?': Well, that's because rays don't HAVE to use ranged touch, "You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack." As such, if you manage to find a non-touch ray, it works with them too.
What were you trying to link to ?
What were you trying to link to ?
I'm not sure why you're quoting me...
However, I can answer: it's a link to a monster in the bestiary 6, the Whisperer, that has the feat Improved Critical (touch).
What were you trying to link to ?I'm not sure why you're quoting me...
However, I can answer: it's a link to a monster in the bestiary 6, the Whisperer, that has the feat Improved Critical (touch).
The developer of that book doesn't have the best grasp on the rules. It's a mistake.
Yeah, but it's a James Jacobs developed book, so it's not surprising to find a rules violation or mistake.What were you trying to link to ?I'm not sure why you're quoting me...
However, I can answer: it's a link to a monster in the bestiary 6, the Whisperer, that has the feat Improved Critical (touch).
*shrug* It's a core/hardback book so it's as 'official' as we have now. I'd prefer more than that to go on, but it's better than nothing.
The developer of that book doesn't have the best grasp on the rules. It's a mistake.What were you trying to link to ?I'm not sure why you're quoting me...
However, I can answer: it's a link to a monster in the bestiary 6, the Whisperer, that has the feat Improved Critical (touch).
I think that comment is pretty rude. He has stated though that monsters built in it are not always designed to fit within the players being able to follow the same rules. He believes a creature shouldn't be restricted to the same things players are. Or at least, that is the gist I have gotten from his responses. He is always free to correct me on that.
As for how damning that creature is? I'd say not at all. Just because certain creatures can twf with no penalties, doesn't mean a human can. In this case, the creature breaks the rule and it can do that. As it isn't a player character. After all, they also don't get full HP on the first HD or the same amount of wealth or... I can go on to show where they don't follow other PC rules, but I don't think it's worth listing them all. If this was a more widely done case, I'd say it is possible that it was intended, but with only one or a slight handful more, it's not really proof.
In this case, the creature breaks the rule and it can do that.
I'd have to disagree with you on this point. What rule did the creature break? Touch isn't explicitly included or excluded from the list and we have odd things like ray and grapple as listed possibilities, so I don't see how we can conclude it 'breaks the rules' unless we can point to a clear rules that's been broken. For me, it's being allowed in 3.5 [and backwards compatibility at start] alone means I'd expect a specific removal from options if it wasn't allowed in pathfinder. The Whisperer is 'icing on the cake' and not evidence that's the crux of an argument.
Secondly, I dislike using different rules for monsters. It leads to confusion, as those 'fudged' mechanics can stick in people's minds as correct even if they don't mean to consciously.
3rd, it makes little sense to 'fudge' the rules here as they can JUST 'fudge' the natural attacks and didn't need the feat to do it. Someone had to go out of their way to make it Improved Critical and even further out of their way to not make it Improved Critical (mist tendrils).
I'm sure anything not to current RAW (writing to specifications) gets extra eyeballs on it.
In this situation, if an adjustment was needed and the Improved Critical (touch) is illegal, there as a perfectly legal way to do it: add "with a crit range of 19–20" to the Cursed Wound ability. That does the same thing with no fudging needed AND it doesn't give the wrong impression by making it clear it's limited to THIS ability. I'm all for the "old school GMming" approach, as long as you make it clear that's what you're doing.
Sometimes "Monsters" (an ill-defined term at that) have abilities and feats that player characters can't. I've seen Weapon Focus (rock) before, even though rocks are improvised weapons for PCs.
You mean like a stone mystery oracle using Rock Throwing? They seem as 'proficient' with rock as a cliff giant with Rock Throwing...
With the amount of PC options floating around, the "monster" ability/feat has to pretty unique for there not to be a PC ability that's comparable.
I'm sure anything not to spec gets looked at. Of course there's seniority, creativity, and the cool factor.
And sometime they are just wrong. ;)
And that's what makes it difficult figuring out issues if they 'color outside the lines' on a regular basis.
Real life example: I had an argument with the creator of eberron about warforged and special materials [Mithral and Adamantine bodies] that lasted 6+ months. My point of view was that nothing in the published rules stopped PC's from mugging passing warforged for huge profits and Baker disagreed. In the end, I finally got him to realize that the group he played with used a houserule that you can't reforge special materials and he wrote the setting based on that without actually adding it officially.
Second example: Not long ago, a question came up about negative energy and constructs. We asked 'does negative energy harm constructs' and Mark commented 'Well of COURSE they don't take damage.' When we asked where it says that, he couldn't find any. It was assumed to be true but wasn't actually written anywhere. In fact, undead/constructs could get unlimited temp hp by chilling out on positive energy planes before it got FAQ'd.
Moral: the people that make/review the material aren't infallible and sometimes make assumptions that aren't in the rules [or the current rules but where in 3.5]. that's why, IMO, they should make it clear when something is an exception.
Is “touch” a weapon?
Improved Critical (Combat)
Attacks made with your chosen weapon are quite deadly.Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
Is “touch” a weapon?
Grapple and ray are... it's hard to look at grapple and then say 'touch clearly isn't a weapon'.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Would seem to imply they are not weapons but rather exceptions.
Would seem to imply they are not weapons but rather exceptions.
Does it imply an exclusive list? Not from list of items that have been listed as weapon focus picks that aren't #1 on the weapon list or #2 one of those exceptions... Or things like mystic bolt or kinetic blast. "type of weapon" seems much broader than your implication suggests...
<grin> I think you are arguing for uniform consistency. That would be nice.
My position is that they should TRY for consistency when possible. I don't think that's too much to ask for. ;)
Graystone: +1.
Rays, and other spells belong in a category of weapon-like spells. As such weapon focus is legitimate.
Unarmed strikes are likewise legitimate.
There is no way to know what qualifies as an appropriate focus for weapon focus. Generally speaking it is a weapon (device, limb) etc. used to attack (and damage via that attack) an opponent. (opinion)
Under such interpretation WF: (touch) is valid. WF (grapple) is not, because the damage in a grapple is incidental (tangential). Grapples are made to hold, regardless of consequential damage, Weapon Focus is a strike to damage.
Going back to OP:
Rays receive cover from things like being in combat; they can take concealment penalties as well; you can sneak attack with a ray; things that boost weapon damage boost weapon like spells. It is valid to take weapon focus, and improved critical for weapon-like spells.
Ranged touch effect spells include a bunch of different type of spells, many of which have different characteristics. However, generically, they are individual target spells. (Cannot be done against an invisible target). Concealment miss chances do not apply to ranged touch attack spells.
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I know I'm a bit late coming back to the party, but I stand corrected. In that case I think the simple answer is "It's a ray if it says it's a ray". I appreciate people checking me!
