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I would think with wand wielder and Maneuver Mastery people would be talking about trip and twf staff Magus. Let see some staff Magus builds.
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I would think with wand wielder and Maneuver Mastery people would be talking about trip and twf staff Magus. Let see some staff Magus builds.
I really really really wanted to make a staff magus for the next game I'm playing in. I wanted to do a high mobility, dex based build. The staff magus' trading of armor proficiencies for shield bonuses seemed custom fit, but there's no way to finesse a staff. /sad panda
I would think with wand wielder and Maneuver Mastery people would be talking about trip and twf staff Magus. Let see some staff Magus builds.I really really really wanted to make a staff magus for the next game I'm playing in. I wanted to do a high mobility, dex based build. The staff magus' trading of armor proficiencies for shield bonuses seemed custom fit, but there's no way to finesse a staff. /sad panda
Yes its going to be a MAD build but I think you can make a good trip staff Magus.
Str 14
Dex17 (+2 human)
Con13
Int16
Wis10
Chr8
(1) combat expertise
(1)improved trip.
(3)combat reflexes
(5)weapon focus staff
(7)two weapon fighting ( staff is a double weapon right?)
(9)tripping staff
Magus arcana
(3) Maneuver Mastery
(6)wand wielder
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two weapon fighting ( staff is a double weapon right?)
Not when you have this feat and you start with it.
Quarterstaff Master (Combat)
You can wield a quarterstaff as either a two-handed or one-handed weapon.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff ), base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: By employing a number of different stances and techniques, you can wield a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon. At the start of your turn, you decide whether or not you are going to wield the quarterstaff as a one-handed or two-handed weapon. When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon. You can take the feat Weapon Specialization in the quarterstaff even if you have no levels in fighter.
And your Str is to low. Quarterstaff is not a finess weapon so you need Str for to hit.
I would think with wand wielder and Maneuver Mastery people would be talking about trip and twf staff Magus. Let see some staff Magus builds.
I worked one up for my up and coming Advanced Feats: Might of the Magus book. I multi-classed with monk for mine (Monk 4/Magus 16). I didn't build too heavily for tripping (I already did that with a whip build) but its a good way to go.
You can't do the TWF double weapon action, but I was more focused on switching between spell combat and flurry of blows (which you can do unarmed or with the staff). Of course my build involved some new feats I created for the book but I think you can still do the basic build without them.
The tricky thing for Monk/Magus is where you focus your ability scores. I started with a pretty even spread in Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis and leveled up into Wisdom all but one level (to grab one more Int for level 6 spells). More strength would have been nice but the Magus list has a fair number of Str buffs you can use.
Its not a powerhouse kind of character, but its versatile and pretty flavorful.
two weapon fighting ( staff is a double weapon right?)
Not when you have this feat and you start with it.Quarterstaff Master (Combat)
You can wield a quarterstaff as either a two-handed or one-handed weapon.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff ), base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: By employing a number of different stances and techniques, you can wield a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon. At the start of your turn, you decide whether or not you are going to wield the quarterstaff as a one-handed or two-handed weapon. When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon. You can take the feat Weapon Specialization in the quarterstaff even if you have no levels in fighter.And your Str is to low. Quarterstaff is not a finess weapon so you need Str for to hit.
Yes I know you can't fitness it but as Magus you get + to hit other places like buffs,spells and arcane pool. So I'm thinking AC from a higher dex is better for Tripper. If we were making a damage dealer not a trip fighter I would switch str and dexand be using differntfeats.
You twf when you are not using spell combat
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I just recently made a Staff Magus for a game. It was the first Magus I have created and I decided to do it as a way to test out the new rules for the class. This build is at level 7 with two traits and a 20 point buy.
Stats:
STR 14
DEX 14 +2(belt) = 16
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 10
Feats(not in order of level taken):
QuarterStaff Master
Weapon Focus(Quarterstaff)
Weapon Specialization(Quarterstaff)
Arcane Strike
Combat Casting
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Improved Familiar
Alertness(when familiar is nearby)
Traits:
Poverty Stricken
Focused Mind
Magus Arcana:
Familiar
Close Range
I could have dropped Imp Familiar for Power Attack, but I wanted a psuedodragon. Also, I could have gotten the belt of str, but felt the extra armor would be more generally useful due to my low AC. Also, with the trait and feat I have a +16 concentration which gives me an auto success on 1st level and trivial checks on 2nd and 3rd. I took this route to prevent myself from losing spells(not enough per day to risk it) and to prevent needing to take additional negatives(though I could if I absolutely needed to land a 3rd level spell).
Craft Magic Arms and Armor is the feat I least enjoyed taking, but allowed me to get a Quarterstaff +2/+2. This is a bit of a weak point in the new rules in my opinion. I would rather be allowed to enchant only one end of a double weapon instead of being forced to do both. I only plan to use the Quarterstaff as a one handed weapon, but have to pay double the cost to enchant it. This is really the break point in the build, in my opinion. Unless you plan on house ruling the craft rules for the character your staff magus is going to cost double for all of your weapon enchancements and most of the time will not see any benefit from the extra cost. I would propose allowing the Quarterstaff Master Magus gain a quarterstaff similar to the arcane bond rules which can be enchanted at half cost by yourself.
EDIT:
If I had the build to do over again I would swap Poverty Stricken for Magical Lineage(Shocking Grasp) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor for Intensify Spell. This would leave me with only a +1/+1 Quarterstaff, but I could shift the gold into more scrolls/wands and an additional +1 on my armor(making a mithral chain shirt +2). I like to prepare my casters with a stock of scrolls and wands and the extra gold would allow me to have a good number of utility options. At the next feat I intend for this guy to take power attack and furious focus then once I get past level 10 start dipping into the Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization fighter options.
The intent is to use SpellStrike to 2h the Quarterstaff and SpellCombat to cast buffs. With the high Concentration this guy can cast defensively with little risk involved. The familiar can be used for scouting and when I anticipate combat I can precast vanish/shocking grasp into the familiar for some surprise round fun.
The critical flaw (pun intended) is the lack of crit range on the staff for a staff magus. The extra crit range for your touch spells on spell strike is your bread an butter in a magus class. Thus any weapon that is crit on 20 only, is just not worth it.
Until they fix this with the archetype, its just too weak compared to other magus.
The critical flaw (pun intended) is the lack of crit range on the staff for a staff magus. The extra crit range for your touch spells on spell strike is your bread an butter in a magus class. Thus any weapon that is crit on 20 only, is just not worth it.
Until they fix this with the archetype, its just too weak compared to other magus.
Right, because that extra 10% to the spell damage on average with Spellstrike is what makes or breaks the class. [/sarcasm] Granted, it's an extra 20-25% with Improved Critical or keen.
The staff magus does a little less damage in melee, but its strength is at higher levels through the synergies between the Wand Wielder arcana, Quarterstaff Defense, and Staff Weapon that provide more staying power (conservation of spell slots, higher AC, less need to use pool points to increase weapon enhancement bonus). If you're willing to invest two feats (Skill Focus (Knowledge (Arcana)) and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane bloodline)) and a 13 Cha, you can even make your staff a bonded item: allowing you to cast one spell per day without preparation (starting from 3rd level or whenever you take the Eldritch Heritage feat) and add magical enhancements/abilities to it as if you have Craft Magic Arms and Armor (starting at 7th level) and Craft Staff (starting at 13th level). Or you can just take Craft Staff at 11th level. Note that it's much more convenient (and less costly) to increase the CL of your staff (gaining maximum utility from Quarterstaff Defense and Staff Weapon) yourself as you level up.
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two weapon fighting ( staff is a double weapon right?)
Not when you have this feat and you start with it.Quarterstaff Master (Combat)
You can wield a quarterstaff as either a two-handed or one-handed weapon.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff ), base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: By employing a number of different stances and techniques, you can wield a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon. At the start of your turn, you decide whether or not you are going to wield the quarterstaff as a one-handed or two-handed weapon. When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon. You can take the feat Weapon Specialization in the quarterstaff even if you have no levels in fighter.And your Str is to low. Quarterstaff is not a finess weapon so you need Str for to hit.
You can already do that without a feat. Any double weapon can be used as a one-handed weapon, no feat required.
You can already do that without a feat. Any double weapon can be used as a one-handed weapon, no feat required.two weapon fighting ( staff is a double weapon right?)
Not when you have this feat and you start with it.Quarterstaff Master (Combat)
You can wield a quarterstaff as either a two-handed or one-handed weapon.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff ), base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: By employing a number of different stances and techniques, you can wield a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon. At the start of your turn, you decide whether or not you are going to wield the quarterstaff as a one-handed or two-handed weapon. When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon. You can take the feat Weapon Specialization in the quarterstaff even if you have no levels in fighter.And your Str is to low. Quarterstaff is not a finess weapon so you need Str for to hit.
The text on pg. 144-145 of the Core Rulebook has been clarified: A double-weapon that is one size category smaller can be wielded in one hand as a one-handed weapon; if it is the same size, you can strike with one end as if using a one-handed weapon (or a one-handed weapon wielded with two hands), but it still requires you to use both hands. The double weapon property does not allow you to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand.
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I want to find a DM that will allow me to replace "Quarterstaff Master" with "Two-bladed Sword Master" and make a 2-bladed sword Magus. THAT would be sweet.
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The critical flaw (pun intended) is the lack of crit range on the staff for a staff magus. The extra crit range for your touch spells on spell strike is your bread an butter in a magus class. Thus any weapon that is crit on 20 only, is just not worth it.
Until they fix this with the archetype, its just too weak compared to other magus.
I think the 'must use a scimitar' type of view of the Magus is misleading. While yes, focusing on spellstrike's advantage when it comes to critical range is a legitimate way to come at the class, it's hardly the be-all and end-all - it only focuses on a small range of spells (touch spells which inflict damage) and ignores the rest of what the class can do. The Magus, for example, makes a great blaster-caster (with a higher BAB than the full casters for those ranged touch spells, and no real 'must have' blasting spells above spell level 6 anyway).
The Staff Magus archetype explores another direction for the Magus, as it ultimately looks at the class's abilities with combat maneuvers, and eventually provides more AC than a vanilla Magus. So, instead of the 'scimitar build' type of Magus which focuses on bliztkrieg damage attacks - trying to get in those high-damage melee touch spells and praying to the gods for a critical for the big payoff - the staff magus is more about using combat maneuvers to control the enemy, and making himself harder to hit whilst doing so. Compared with a scimitar build, the staff magus is likely to engage in longer combats, but with much less 'swing' factor in his effectiveness.
As a Staff Magus, you'll likely be looking towards the Tripping Staff Feat (which was pretty much made for you - Tripping Twirl isn't nearly as essential, but could be nice icing on the cake at high levels of play) so a lot of your initial Feats and Arcana are pretty obvious choices...
You're going to need Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Weapon Focus (quarterstaff) by the time you hit level 9 (and have the +6 BAB requirement for the Tripping Staff Feat as well as a spare Feat slot), and there's a good chance you'll want Weapon Specialization (quarterstaff) just because Quarterstaff Master (which you get for free at level 1) allows you to have it, and it's a nice bonus to damage (for when you're not tripping things...). By the time you've got Improved Trip and that +6 BAB, you'll also be looking at Greater Trip - since it's the proverbial holy grail of any trip build. Ultimate Combat also introduced a bunch of interesting Feats - such as Felling Smash (if you've taken Power Attack - and why not, you're using a two-handed weapon a lot of the time...), and Vicous Stomp (with Combat Reflexes and Improved Unarmed Strike)... so you're not going to be short of choices when it comes to build-supporting Feats.
So, a human Staff Magus may go something like...
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (B), Quarterstaff Master (B)
3: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff)
5: Power Attack, Weapon Specialization (quarterstaff) (B)
7: ????
9: Tripping Staff
11: Greater Trip
... although there's plenty of room to chop and change Feats, and some won't be as interested in the damage-boosting of the Power Attack and Weapon Specialization Feats. Personally I like taking both the Familiar Arcana and the Improved Familiar Feat at level 3 (starting with a Celestial or Fiendish goat and upgrading from there) - but that's true for all Magus types (except for the sadly Familiar-bereft Black Blade), not unique to a Staff Magus.
Arcana should include Maneuver Mastery (trip) for obvious reasons, although you can put it off until the gap between your level and your BAB starts to open up a bit (I'd suggest Familiar at level 3 and Maneuver Mastery at level 6). (Since the trip maneuver replaces a melee attack, and Maneuver Mastery replaces your BAB, in theory this should also allow you more iterative attacks - as long as they're all trips... although you'd want to check for errata and DM ruling on that one...) Wand Wielder is the other obvious arcana choice, as you're planning on using magical staves a lot...
For spell choices, magic weapon and the greater version are your friend, especially after you hit level 7 and the Quarterstaff Defense Class Feature is letting you add that bonus to both your attacks and your AC. Using the spells frees up your Arcane Pool to add effects instead. Of course, having an actual +5 quarterstaff (or CL 20 magic staff once you hit level 10 and gain the Staff Weapon Feature) is even better... Enlarge person is a mainstay - as it ups your CMB a lot, adds reach, and increases your damage when you go two-handed to smash the poor chap who's now prone at your feet...
Item Crafting Feats - to make your own magic quarterstaff / staff - seem tempting at first, but in most campaigns you'll be wanting to try to secure a staff with as high a Caster Level as possible once you pick up the Staff Weapon Feature at level 10, and between the magic weapon spells and your Arcane Pool Feature there's not as much reason as usual to keep re-making yourself (or upgrading) a magic weapon every few levels. Still, Craft Magic Arms and Armour and Craft Staff both work well with the archetype... they're just not essential... so whether you pick them up or not will likely depend on the style of campaign you're in, and whether you can spare the Feats or not.
For Ability Scores, you're likely to be focusing on melee - so Dexterity is only really needed for extra AC and Reflex save (since there's no Feats essential to the build which have a minum Dex requirement) and can mostly be ignored in favour of Strength. You'll eventually want 16 Intelligence, to qualify for all your spell levels, but since you're not building a DC dependent caster, you don't really need any more than that (unless you're desperate for extra Arcane Pool points or something - which usually indicates a poor choice of Magus Arcana, taking several ones which drain your Arcane Pool).
A suggested 15pt build...
Human Staff Magus
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 16 (including +2 racial bonus)
Wis 8
Chr 8
- more min-maxed than I like, but not bad. Boosts to Ability Scores should focus on Strength.
Feats start with:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (B), Quarterstaff Master (B)
3: Improved Familiar
5: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), Weapon Specialization (quarterstaff) (B)
7: Power Attack
9: Tripping Staff
11: Greater Trip
Arcana start with:
3: Familiar
6: Maneuver Mastery (trip)
9: Wand Wielder
By level 11 you're tripping at: BAB +11, Improved Trip +2, Greater Trip +2, Weapon Focus +1, Staff bonus +5, Strength +4 (minimum) = +25 CMB. Just a basic enlarge person takes that to a +27 (+1 extra for special size bonus, +1 extra for size-boosted Strength), without any other modifiers (such as Strength enhancing spells or a magic belt).
At the same level you're hitting with BAB +8/+3, Weapon Focus +1, Staff bonus +5, Strength +4 (minimum) = +18/+13 for 1d6+13 two-handed, 1d8+14 two-handed and enlarged, or +15/+10 for 1d6+22 two-handed with a Power Attack, and 1d8+23 two-handed with a Power Attack when enlarged. That's before adding any extra magic into the mix, of course.
By this point the advantage of the Staff Magus + Tripping Staff build should be obvious: your trip-based spellstrikes (assuming you're enlarged) are +27 against the target's CMD, Vs your normal spellstrikes at +18 (or +15) Vs the target's AC. Unless the target happens to have a CMD much higher than his AC, chances are you're triggering those melee touch spell effects a lot more than other Magus builds... and your target is prone, so easier to hit... and provokes when he tries to stand (as well as when he falls, with Greater Trip). Not only that, but your +5 shield bonus to AC from your Quarterstaff Defense Feature is helping you out more than the other Magi's reliance on the old shield spell (a lot more once you hit level 13 and it becomes a +8 bonus).
... Who needs scimitars? :)
Sure if your going for theme and flavor. But everything said just pales in comparison to an extra 20% chance to do 20d6 or 30d6. I'll take the scimitar magus/eldritch knight combo thank you very much. Throw in a craft wand and wand wielder in there and you've got way more than what the staff magus can ever supply. And don't forget the dip into crossblood/wild sorc for the +2 damage per dice. Yeah, that extra crit range is looking mighty fine.
I would think with wand wielder and Maneuver Mastery people would be talking about trip and twf staff Magus. Let see some staff Magus builds.
The reason why there are no staff builds is because staff builds suck.
I would think with wand wielder and Maneuver Mastery people would be talking about trip and twf staff Magus. Let see some staff Magus builds.The reason why there are no staff builds is because staff builds suck.
When did D&D become a game about DPR and not role playing...
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When did D&D become a game about DPR and not role playing...
3rd edition and beyond. I thought it was obvious.
When did D&D become a game about DPR and not role playing...3rd edition and beyond. I thought it was obvious.
That is sad. It never became that way at my table, fortunately. But we are all old-school players most of us hailing from first edition and the youngest from 2e.
My advice - don't let optimization be a driving force in determining what to play or how to build/advance your character. This is first and foremost a roleplaying game - if your backstory or concept means choosing less "optimal" feats or weapons - do it and do so unrepentantly. It is better for your character to be what you WANT it to be then what others think it should be or want it to be.
I would rather play a character that makes me think, that I enjoy playing, and is original then something canned and labeled as "the best way to go." Because in the end - the best way to go is what you are going to have fun with while being challenged.
When did D&D become a game about DPR and not role playing...3rd edition and beyond. I thought it was obvious.That is sad. It never became that way at my table, fortunately. But we are all old-school players most of us hailing from first edition and the youngest from 2e.
My advice - don't let optimization be a driving force in determining what to play or how to build/advance your character. This is first and foremost a roleplaying game - if your backstory or concept means choosing less "optimal" feats or weapons - do it and do so unrepentantly. It is better for your character to be what you WANT it to be then what others think it should be or want it to be.
I would rather play a character that makes me think, that I enjoy playing, and is original then something canned and labeled as "the best way to go." Because in the end - the best way to go is what you are going to have fun with while being challenged.
Reality is reality. People will always look for more synergistic combinations and then try and justify choices via background and story. I think feigning altruism is not being honest with the system and human nature. It didn't happen as much in 2nd edition and prior because you didn't have 'builds'. Your development path, mechanically speaking, was pretty much set from the beginning.
I play with people that make the very same claim and harp on people who make decisions based off of 'abilities' and then does the same damn thing but its ok because they have an acceptable backstory to go with it.
So please spare me. The system is what it is and has changed. And that change mostly happened from 3rd ed on.
Actually there is a trick for staff magi more than the club is if you put a use of weapon blanch on the other end of your staff you can save it until you get something with damage reduction of that type and otherwise use the other end.
Reality is reality. People will always look for more synergistic combinations and then try and justify choices via background and story. I think feigning altruism is not being honest with the system and human nature.
That is a lot of presumption considering you don't know me or anyone sitting at my table. Until you are actually sitting at my table - I suggest you refrain from accusing me of feigning altruism.
Your opinion is one that is not accepted by the players at my table. They (and I) play this game for very different reasons then it seems you view it to be played for.
However, they would not harp on anyone for making such a character - but that person probably wouldn't last long in our group as they wouldn't fit in and find that the adventures I run have far more intrigue and non-combat (and role playing - as in not resolvable by the role of a die) challenges then they are looking for in a game.
Good day to you.
You should take use magic device with a staff magus and get a wand of shileagh to get the 2d6 damage on your staff and the +1 bonus. Also use magic device is uesful for other spells and things.
Sounds like I struck a nerve. Must have been food for thought. Natural reaction really.
<puts on his oh so serious Fez (that 70's show) accent>
"I said good day!"
Wand Wielder
Benefit: The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.
lets you use your staff of power(or other staff) for spell combat. Using charges from your staff gives you alot more staying power .
I think a staff/trip magus could work great . Damage is great but a trip like a grapple stops mobs faster normally .
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Peaking damage can be fun, but it's also a great way to get ganged on. If the monsters can think, they'll probably target the most dangerous AND flashiest thing in the battlefield. And magi look pretty silly when it comes to AC and hit points.
Not so with the staff magus(temple sword and any other trip-weapon ones too. Risen Guard khopesh wielding magi ftw.). Other than having a very abusable trick, the trip, starting attack routines with a combat maneuver gives you a lot more staying power. With the boni listed by ProffPots in play, there aren't a whole lot of monsters, barring flying and many-legged ones, who won't take the fall. And getting the fall is a great way to not be worth much for the next turn - AC suffers, to-hit suffers and you provoke when getting up. This benefits the magus who's far more safe than his scimitar-wielding brother.
Naturally the brother might have just spellcritted another opponent for 20d6 shock and weapon damage, but that's a lot of ifs to check before he can shine. If he both crits and confirms. If the monster isn't immune(such as demons these days, which is why I decided against playing one in Serpent's Skull. Damn you Paizo!) or resistant to that shock. If there isn't fortification or crit immunity in play. Et cetera.
I say go for it. There's enough magi on the table wielding scimitars as it is. Not everyone should be anointed with an art of a near-mystical martial dance either. :D
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Reality is reality. People will always look for more synergistic combinations and then try and justify choices via background and story. I think feigning altruism is not being honest with the system and human nature. It didn't happen as much in 2nd edition and prior because you didn't have 'builds'. Your development path, mechanically speaking, was pretty much set from the beginning.I play with people that make the very same claim and harp on people who make decisions based off of 'abilities' and then does the same damn thing but its ok because they have an acceptable backstory to go with it.
So please spare me. The system is what it is and has changed. And that change mostly happened from 3rd ed on.
Maybe the people you play with have changed. Just because a lot of stuff on these boards is all about the DPR, it does not mean that his how most play.
Yes, most want to make good chars, but that does not mean they must all pick a cookie cutter build to do so. Is the staff magus inferior to the scimitar wielding Magus? DPR wise no doubt, but that does not make it a bad char. The build posted above is a very viable staff Magus and would be a lot of fun and very powerful AND it fits the style and concept of the player.Any build can be optimised to work well, it's only the munchkins who care if there are better builds that can be done.
Just because you are playing with munchkins it does not mean it is the norm nor does it mean the system is the problem.
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Sure if your going for theme and flavor. But everything said just pales in comparison to an extra 20% chance to do 20d6 or 30d6. I'll take the scimitar magus/eldritch knight combo thank you very much. Throw in a craft wand and wand wielder in there and you've got way more than what the staff magus can ever supply. And don't forget the dip into crossblood/wild sorc for the +2 damage per dice. Yeah, that extra crit range is looking mighty fine.
Well, Magus + Eldritch Knight is one of the worst combos in the game, IMHO. The strength of the ElK is in full BAB with 9 levels of +1 to spellcasting. That favours spellcaster classes which get the most out of spells as they level, and doesn't favour spellcasting classes which get nifty Class Features as they level (but which won't be increased by the levels of ElK taken). Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / ElK 10 is a good way to go, Magus + ElK is horribly self-nerfing. YMMV, of course, and this has been discussed to death in other threads anyway, so back to the Staff Magus...
By the time a trip-build Staff Magus and his non-trip scimitar Magus friend reach level 20, the Staff Magus is winning on several points:
Offense:
Assuming that both Magi use haste or something similar, they're getting a basic +15/+15/+10/+5 attack routine at level 20 (before bonuses). The staff and the scimitar do the same base damage (1d6), and we'll assume they both have double their usual critical range (so 15-20 for the scimitar, and 19-20 for the staff).
So, under optimal circumstances, and assuming each result on a d20 comes up once over the course of 20 die rolls, over the course of 5 rounds each Magus misses once (the '1' result) and hits 19 times. We'll assume all criticals confirm though, so the scimitar Magus is getting 25 damage rolls (19 basic and 6 extra for the criticals), and the Staff Magus only 21 damage rolls (19 basic and 2 extra for the criticals). However, that's not the game the Staff Magus is playing...
Whilst the scimitar Magus does an attack-attack-attack-attack routine, the Staff Magus does a trip-AoO-attack-attack-attack-AoO routine (the first AoO for when he trips the opponent with Greater Trip, the second when the opponent stands up). So, the Staff Magus is getting 5 damaging attacks per round (2 AoO and 3 attacks) Vs the scimitar Magus's 4. So, over those 5 rounds, the Staff Magus is getting an extra 5 damage rolls (being conservative, since having a 10% chance to crit and only a 5% chance to auto-miss actually skews things a little more the Staff Magus's way) taking his total number of damage rolls for the five rounds to 26 Vs the scimitar Magus's 25.
Under these (artificial and ideal) circumstances, the Staff Magus has a bigger base DPR.
But... what about less ideal circumstances? Well, those work in the Staff Magus's favour too...
The scimitar Magus is doing a +15/+15/+10/+5 attack routine, before bonuses.
The Staff Magus is doing a +24/+15/+19/+14/+9/+19 attack routine, before bonuses (except including the extra +4 to the trip attack he gains from Manuever Mastery plus Improved and Greater Trip, and the extra +4 chance he has to hit when his target is prone, due to the -4 AC the target takes - as they're the only bonuses one Magus gets and the other doesn't). That's assuming the target's CMD matches his AC, but unless his CMD is at least 9 point over his AC the Staff Magus will always have a better chance to hit on his first (trip) attack.
So, as soon as the target number to actually hit the enemy (and to confirm criticals) rises above 2, the Staff Magus's DPR starts to outpace the scimitar Magus's by even more.
The scimitar Magus's only saving grace is his chance to boost his spellstrike damage via scoring more confirmed criticals than the Staff Magus. But, that means he has to be rolling those critical threats on attacks when he's spellstriking, and reliably confirming them too. Since the Staff Magus can spellstrike on his trip attempt he's got a mcuh bigger chance to actually hit with his spellstrikes than his scimitar Magus buddy (unless his foe happens to have a CMD more than 9 points higher than his AC... in which case the two Magi have the same chance to score that first hit).
Throw enlarge person or the better size-boosting spells into the mix and the Staff Magus is doing even better - since the special size bonus and the Strength boost of such spells are adding to his chance to hit with the trip attack, whilst the scimitar Magus is, at best, breaking even on his to-hit chances (let's hope he's not dervish dancing!).
Now, a trip-built scimitar Magus can claw back a lot of this lost ground... but because (unlike the Staff Magus) he's not using a trip weapon, he loses out on all those weapon specific bonuses (such as that +5 enhancement bonus on his weapon, and the +1 from his Weapon Focus Feat...) so he's still not as likely to hit as the Staff Magus, and in any case (unlike the Staff Magus) he can't trigger his spellstrike on his trip attack to take advantage of the much greater chance it has of hitting the target.
Defense:
At the top of their games the scimitar Magus is wearing +5 mithral full plate with an armoured skirt (for +15 AC), and using a shield spell (for +4 AC), whilst the Staff Magus is wearing a +5 mithral agile breastplate (for +11 AC) and using a +5 staff (for +8 AC). Other bonuses aside (which apply equally to either party) both Magi are rocking a +19 AC from their gear...
But the scimitar Magus is weighed down by the limits of heavy armour (and lacks a Fighter's armour training to mitigate those limits), whilst the Staff Magus is dancing on air with no penalties to movement, Climb or jump checks, and only a -1 armour check penalty on other relevant skills (Vs the scimitar Magus's -3 armour check penalty).
Also, the scimitar Magus is getting 4 points of his AC from a fragile spell, which takes expendable resources to cast, and has a limited duration. The Staff Magus is rocking his AC all day long.
Even better, thanks to the Arcane Redoubt arcana and it's greater version (Ultimate Combat page 54), the Staff Magus can rock a touch AC and Reflex save 4 points higher than the scimitar Magus in the same circumstances.
Not to mention that the Staff Magus is knocking the bad guys prone, denying them full attacks, unless they choose to stay down and suck the penalties - either way, the bad guys are less of a threat to him than to his scimitar wielding buddy.
Teamwork:
The Staff Magus is Greater Tripping opponents, granting all his friends a potential two extra AoO against them each round (one when they go down, and one when they stand up), and making them easier for everyone to hit (and, as mentioned above, denying them full attacks, or inflicting penalties to hit on them).
The scimitar Magus isn't.
Conclusion:
The idea that the Staff Magus is 'for flavour only' or 'sucks' compared to a vanilla scimitar Magus is an knee-jerk idea which hasn't been worked through. Realistically the Staff Magus won't be better in all situations - and we wouldn't want him to be (game balance FTW!) - but with a solid trip-based build he'll be doing better than his vanilla scimitar Magus buddy in a great many situations, and applauding politely with an understanding smile on his lips when the scimitar Magus scores a big spellstrike critical and fist-pumps the air... ;)
Good Stuff
This sir was an excellent study and explanation. +1
It should always come down to playing what you want and running with a concept that you will enjoy. The staff magus with Dimensional Dervish could potentially be an interesting study of a magus controller. :)
I think I may have to play-test that combination now :P
This is why I encourage all players to err on the side of concept then power gaming or min/maxing. It leads to a much more enjoyable role playing experiences.
...Just because a lot of stuff on these boards is all about the DPR, it does not mean that his how most play.
Yes, most want to make good chars, but that does not mean they must all pick a cookie cutter build to do so. Is the staff magus inferior to the scimitar wielding Magus? DPR wise no doubt, but that does not make it a bad char. The build posted above is a very viable staff Magus and would be a lot of fun and very powerful AND it fits the style and concept of the player.
Any build can be optimized to work well, it's only the munchkins who care if there are better builds that can be done.
Just because you are playing with munchkins it does not mean it is the norm nor does it mean the system is the problem.
Exactly. In fact we can take this further - some groups even prefer low combat quests because they can focus more on the character and mental and/or skill challenges. RPGs appeal to a great diverse group of people for very different reasons.
Sounds like I struck a nerve. Must have been food for thought. Natural reaction really.
You did - but not for the reasons you hoped for. Your discourtesy in telling me why I and my players play this game and how we go about character conception and how I was dishonest in my statements of what we focus on was the only thing I gave thought too. And yes - it is my natural reaction to not silently stand by while my integrity is impugned without basis.
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There was just as much optimization, min/maxing, and DPR raisers in previous editions. They just didn't have the benefits of wide spread internet to make themselves well known at the time.
Well, Magus + Eldritch Knight is one of the worst combos in the game, IMHO. The strength of the ElK is in full BAB with 9 levels of +1 to spellcasting. That favours spellcaster classes which get the most out of spells as they level, and doesn't favour spellcasting classes which get nifty Class Features as they level (but which won't be increased by the levels of ElK taken). Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / ElK 10 is a good way to go, Magus + ElK is horribly self-nerfing. YMMV, of course, and this has been discussed to death in other threads anyway, so back to the Staff Magus...By the time a trip-build Staff Magus and his non-trip scimitar Magus friend reach level 20, the Staff Magus is winning on several points:
1st of all, I don't build out to level 20. I build to level 15 as that is ususally the average top end of the APs.
And the magus + EK is NOT one of the worst combos in the game. Get real. Your getting an extra attack, qualifying for more fighter feats, full attack bonus, more hit points, and doing it while adding more spell casting to your existing arcane class (the magus). 7 magus, 7 EK, 1 sorc.
Most of the magus power comes from the first few spell levels. All you need is a casting level of 10 for your magus.
Offense:
Assuming that both Magi use haste or something similar, they're getting a basic +15/+15/+10/+5 attack routine at level 20 (before bonuses). The staff and the scimitar do the same base damage (1d6), and we'll assume they both have double their usual critical range (so 15-20 for the scimitar, and 19-20 for the staff).
So, under optimal circumstances, and assuming each result on a d20 comes up once over the course of 20 die rolls, over the course of 5 rounds each Magus misses once (the '1' result) and hits 19 times. We'll assume all criticals confirm though, so the scimitar Magus is getting 25 damage rolls (19 basic and 6 extra for the criticals), and the Staff Magus only 21 damage rolls (19 basic and 2 extra for the criticals). However, that's not the game the Staff Magus is playing...
Whilst the scimitar Magus does...
And what your forgetting is the synergy of the dexterity bonuses and the dervish feat. Your getting your dex bonus to damage and don't have to build str for damage bonus like you do with a staff.
And how many feats do you need to get to the twirling tripping staff? Where as the scimitar dervish is easy to get to and is performing much earlier.
And your still not taking in consideration that the scimitar crits 2 and a half times more often which also means that that entensified shocking grasp/empowered shocking grasp hits 2 and a half times more.
And don't pad stats with magic items, thats just silly, unless its someething the character can produce himself in his build.
Sounds like I struck a nerve. Must have been food for thought. Natural reaction really.You did - but not for the reasons you hoped for. Your discourtesy in telling me why I and my players play this game and how we go about character conception and how I was dishonest in my statements of what we focus on was the only thing I gave thought too. And yes - it is my natural reaction to not silently stand by while my integrity is impugned without basis.
Actually I never called 'you' or 'your group' out as anything. I was generalizing. Go back and check the context of my prose if you so wish.
I was simply pointing out how mechanically easier the game systems made it to 'munchikin' from 3rd ed and beyond. I also pointed out that its human nature to to take advantage of that and then justify choices and that I think ignorning those simple truths is naive.
You took it personally for some reason. I'll leave that up to you as to why there is significant percieved persecution and a need to defend yourself from a generalization.
ProfPotts , you sir rock.
Actually I never called 'you' or 'your group' out as anything. I was generalizing. Go back and check the context of my prose if you so wish.
I was simply pointing out how mechanically easier the game systems made it to 'munchikin' from 3rd ed and beyond. I also pointed out that its human nature to to take advantage of that and then justify choices and that I think ignorning those simple truths is naive.
You took it personally for some reason. I'll leave that up to you as to why there is significant percieved persecution and a need to defend yourself from a generalization.
You admit to generalizing and then imply that your sweeping generalizations were in no way directed at me despite being in direct response to me. Generalizations are by definition inclusive and not concerned with actuality as opposed to exclusive and concerned with specificity. Surely you don't expect people to assume exclusion from stated sweeping generalizations, unless of course you are trying to tell me that your choice of words and choice to generalize was unintentionally done. But somehow I get the impression it was very deliberate.
Defective induction is still a fallacy last time I checked. Just saying.
I think what you intended to say (see above quoted text) is far different then what you said via generalizing. Yes it is mechanically easier - and yes many do take advantage of that. But not all and perhaps not even most. Assuming that the sample group of the posters on forums is reflective of the greater base of players is still and always will be faulty reasoning.
My initial response to you was one of specificity (I was not ignoring anything simply pointing out that not everyone approches the game the way you seem to think most do and that I have and entire group of people who look for different things out of their RPGs) - and you respond with a dismissive generalization - that in and of itself is enough discourtesy to "strike a nerve."
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There was just as much optimization, min/maxing, and DPR raisers in previous editions. They just didn't have the benefits of wide spread internet to make themselves well known at the time.
I disagree, if only because character didn't have anywhere near the customization under the previous editions. Aside from raising your ability stats (which was a hell of a lot harder) or finding a better magical weapon, there wasn't much optimization to be done. They didn't have feats, so even at first level you pretty much knew what your character was going to look like at 20th level (or 36th, for BECMI).
I've played many of the older editions and I found plenty of opportunity to optimize.
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Every time I think of a Staff Magus I get an image of Gandalf knocking ten balls of cr#p out of orcs on the walls of Minas Tirith!
Actually I never called 'you' or 'your group' out as anything. I was generalizing. Go back and check the context of my prose if you so wish.
I was simply pointing out how mechanically easier the game systems made it to 'munchikin' from 3rd ed and beyond. I also pointed out that its human nature to to take advantage of that and then justify choices and that I think ignorning those simple truths is naive.
You took it personally for some reason. I'll leave that up to you as to why there is significant percieved persecution and a need to defend yourself from a generalization.
You admit to generalizing and then imply that your sweeping generalizations were in no way directed at me despite being in direct response to me. Generalizations are by definition inclusive and not concerned with actuality as opposed to exclusive and concerned with specificity. Surely you don't expect people to assume exclusion from stated sweeping generalizations, unless of course you are trying to tell me that your choice of words and choice to generalize was unintentionally done. But somehow I get the impression it was very deliberate.
Defective induction is still a fallacy last time I checked. Just saying.
I think what you intended to say (see above quoted text) is far different then what you said via generalizing. Yes it is mechanically easier - and yes many do take advantage of that. But not all and perhaps not even most. Assuming that the sample group of the posters on forums is reflective of the greater base of players is still and always will be faulty reasoning.
My initial response to you was one of specificity (I was not ignoring anything simply pointing out that not everyone approches the game the way you seem to think most do and that I have and entire group of people who look for different things out of their RPGs) - and you respond with a dismissive generalization - that in and of itself is enough discourtesy to "strike a nerve."
Maybe a laxative, warm bubble bath,and xanax will do you some good.
Seriously, relax. The internet is a big place. If your going to throw a hissy fit over everything said by someone, your in for a tumultuous ride.
@Oxlar
What magus archetype are you using for the magus 7/EK 7? because the vanilla magus surely doesn't help you.
You lose will save, you lose improved spell recall, you lose two magus arcana, you lose heavy armor prof., you lose one caster level (ok this doesn't hurt much after some level), your arcane pool points don't increase, you are stuck with a +2 increase of your weapon through the arcane pool, you don't gain hit points*, you don't qualify for more fighter feats**, and you gain one more bonus feat, a +2 increase in BAB and most importantly one more iterative attack.
So what's your way of doing it because i don't really think that it's worth it this way.
*remember that PrCs don't get favored class hp which means that the magus' d8 is the practically the same as EK's d10
** a 14th level magus counts as 7th level fighter and so does a 7th level EK
PS I have no problem with the bronze dragon/air elemental crossblooded sorcerer 1 level dip, in fact the benefits seem to outweight the costs big time.
@Oxlar
What magus archetype are you using for the magus 7/EK 7? because the vanilla magus surely doesn't help you.
You lose will save, you lose improved spell recall, you lose two magus arcana, you lose heavy armor prof., you lose one caster level (ok this doesn't hurt much after some level), your arcane pool points don't increase, you are stuck with a +2 increase of your weapon through the arcane pool, you don't gain hit points*, you don't qualify for more fighter feats**, and you gain one more bonus feat, a +2 increase in BAB and most importantly one more iterative attack.So what's your way of doing it because i don't really think that it's worth it this way.
*remember that PrCs don't get favored class hp which means that the magus' d8 is the practically the same as EK's d10
** a 14th level magus counts as 7th level fighter and so does a 7th level EK
PS I have no problem with the bronze dragon/air elemental crossblooded sorcerer 1 level dip, in fact the benefits seem to outweight the costs big time.
Your right on the HP. They should come close to being equal, if not a half a point per level on average in favor of the EK.
I thought those 'fighter levels' are cumulative, thus it comes out to a total of 10 qualifying fighter levels for meeting prereqs.
The bonus to attack and the extra attack are key. And if you have a touch attack that can fire off multiple times, thats much more quicker that you can discharge it. Thinking of stuff like chill touch.
The spell recall isn't that big of a deal because your biggest punch is for the lower level spells.
And since he is a dexer, I figured no big loss on the heavy armor.
Lastly your losing one bonus feat. You would have gotten two from EK, but only pick up one extra from full magus.
Granted your arcane pool is more limited and won't go as far in a prolonged fight, but I usually like the enduring blade arcana to offset something like that.
Thats how I'm weighing it anyways. But you may find other things more important than me.
The magus usually gets fighter training at 10th level, that's why the fighter level on the magus 7/EK 7 counts as 7 level fighter, that's why i ask what archetype are you using, some archetypes get fighter training earlier.
Ok i get you on the heavy armor.
I am not saying anything about spell recall, i am talking about improved spell recall, 1 point for returning spells like haste, vampiric touch, slow, force hook charge.
We are on the same page on the bonus feats, i said that the magus 7/EK 7 gains one bonus feat (ok i can see the confusion now, i meant ends up with one more feat than the magus 14).
And it's debatable on whether you can use a "touch attack that can fire off multiple times" through your blade but let's assume for this discussion that you can, yes you have a good point about that.
I still think that you might be giving up too much for one extra attack, sure if you are right on the multiple discharges through the sword then the extra attack is a very good thing but i am still not convinced that the benefits outweigh the costs.
As I have suggested several times in the past, a two level dip into the Monk's Weapon Adept archetype grants you some free feats (possibly for tripping, if that's what you're going for), better saves, and helps your chances to hit. It may not be "optimal" for a Staff Magus, but I also don't think it's a bad idea. Maybe even pick up the Crane Style feat chain to help you out in the defense department since you might have most of the prereqs for it out of they way already.
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@Oxlar: If the build you're going for is Magus 7/ElK 7/Sorcerer 1 then you should at least consider changing that to Magus 8 / ElK 6 / Sorcerer 1. You'd gain +1 Arcane Pool point, +1 Will Save, the Improved Spell Combat class feature, and two extra Magus spells in your spellbook for free. The only downside at all would be counting as a level 6 Fighter for the purposes of qualifying for Feats instead of a level 7 Fighter. Everything else (BAB, Fortitude and Reflex saves, average Hit Points, Skill points) would remain exactly the same.
Of course, as a Fighter 1/Wizard 5/ElK 9 you'd have the same BAB, be casting level 7 spells instead of level 5 spells (I've heard tell that people sometimes find those limited wish and greater teleport spells handy, but YMMV...), and count as a level 10 Fighter and a level 14 Wizard for the purposes of qualifying for Feats (instead of as a level 7 Fighter and level 14 Magus). Your base saves would be a pretty comparable Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +7 (as opposed to your Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +7, assuming cross-blooded Sorcerer archetype). You'd also have four bonus combat Feats, and Scribe Scroll, as opposed to your two bonus combat Feats, one bonus Magus Feat, and Eschew Materials.
None of which is relevant to the Staff Magus anyway, but there you go... ;)
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Yes - I was looking at the ultimate evolution of the build. The big advantage of the Staff Magus archetype + Tripping Staff Feat is that he gets to use spellstrike on a trip - the flail-based tripping Magus doesn't. So the Staff Magus ultimately hits with more spellstrikes than his vanilla counterpart. (That said, I was one of the first proponents of the flail-using Magus during the playtests, so I'm hardly against the concept!)
Like all Magus builds, the Staff Magus takes some time to ultimately evolve. On the other hand, he's tripping opponents as early as level 1 (with a human character taking Combat Expertise and Improved Trip Feats) where something like a Dervish Dance Dex-based scimitar Magus isn't even using his primary weapon until level three. So it's a mixed bag, sure, but the idea that the Staff Magus 'sucks' or is a 'weak' build is just plain wrong.
IMHO, natch. ;)
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I guess the intention was to have someone capable of meleeing with a magic staff of power just like Gandalf. Naturally that goal is long in coming since staffs do not even start to appear in the character's hands until past the ninth level. Therefore, I think PFS wasn't really considered when formulating this archetype.
Makes playing a movie version of Gandalf pretty damn easy though.
What about a magus with a fauchard?
Or as proposed somewhere else with a whip?
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Oh yes - there are plenty of interesting ways to build a Magus, and lots of different weapons they can specialize in which are good in different ways too. It's the 'if it's not a Dervish Dancing scimitar-wielding Magus it sucks' camp which I feel is missing a trick. Not that a Dervish Dancing scimitar-wielding Magus isn't a legitimate build too... it's just that it's not the be-all and end-all only option.