Hi everybody,
I'm currently playing a Magus in a Pathfinder group in which i am relatively new (6 times played together, iirc). We started at lvl 5 and are at lvl 7 now.
The problem: my character is rocking the fights - in an obscene way. To defend myself, i am new to pathfinder (not new to D&D or pen&paper though) and was afraid that i would be the lame duck at the table. So i read some threads and guides and came up with a cool halfling derwish dance Magus, who now deals around 75 DPR at current lvl. The other characters are around 10, i guess.
Nobody buys magic items, follows favorable trait lines, we play without surprise rounds, drawing weapons takes no time, we roll one skill per play day, we even don't get much money - in the two levels i earned maybe 1000 gp. So i did not only missed the groups playstyle by an inch or so but more likely by a few miles. But all players are very happy with the state of the game - and this is what it's all about! But now i want to ask you how you would solve this personal situation of mine.
Currently our group has a Paladin, Cleric, Bard, Rogue (not unchained), a Scared Witch Doctor (pre-errata) and my Magus.
The thing is, i don't know which class to switch to without hurting someone. As it is now, fighting is a joke - or everyone except my character is in heavy danger. This is not cool for most players, especially the Paladin. If i switch to a more social, skill-based one though i will cut off the Rogue, Bard and Witch Doctor. We have the divine and arcane spells included and a party buffer with the Bard. Great healers as well. Seriously, i don't know what class i could go for and how i could possibly contribute in a positive, constructive way to this group. If you have any suggestions, i would love to hear them!
Maybe keep the character, and just rebuild her to be less devastating? Take some of those sub-optimal choices the guide steered you away from?
Switch from using damage spells to using buff and de-buff spells with your spell combat.
Your magus is currently filling the striker role (presumably along with the paladin and theoretically the rogue as well), which is what at first glance is what I would consider perfect for the party. I assume the Cleric and Bard are acting primarily in a support role. The wild card is the Scared Witch Doctor. Ideally, they would be acting as a controller, and certainly can fill that role, if they aren't though, that leaves an opportunity for you to make a battlefield control character. Someone focused on limiting the ability of the enemies to attack (or at least full attack) wouldn't step on anyone toes unless someone is already focused on doing that.
I would think about rebuilding (or at least refocusing) your magus into a debuffer-striker, usually the 'frostbite' build. If you focus on weakening enemies rather than delivering shocking grasp alpha strikes you will help everyone contribute. In addition, you can focus on being a reliable flanking partner for the rogue, who really needs that to meaningfully contribute.
If a more 'pure' controller would fit the group better, wizard focusing on summons would be a good choice. Summons are great for slowing up opponents, and once again can provide the rogue some flanking partners. You wouldn't summon to 'damage' you would focus on summoning to delay and distract the opponents.
Lastly of course, you can talk to the group and see if they are interested in getting their character more optimized, you are certainly right though that a 'balanced' level of optimization is more fun for everyone involved.
Also might want to check your numbers, 75 a round seems a tad high for an average, well with a small character with non full bab. 1d6 weapon with spell strike at +7d6 spell strike and another 1d6 for spell combat, maybe add 5 each hit for dex to damage and an extra attack from a haste buff...still seems like 50 avg per round. Assuming it is a low wealth/magic campaign that is. Granted you may have some far superior gear that the rest of the group, but coming in at lvl 5 and adding 1k wealth can be much more than a +1 armor/weapon and some consumables. This also assumes you never miss. But seriously if the others are averaging 10 a round at that level, there is something else going on, they should also have haste and similar gear. A Lvl 7 Paladin with Smite, full bab with big bonus, should be getting 3 attacks and hit more often, hard to see him doing 10. The Rogue should be getting 4d6 Precision damage with that many melee. I doubt you are the problem in the damage disparity.
I never understood the appeal of characters like the dervish dancing docking grasp magus. These characters all have the same backstory: Local hero grew up reading optimization guides and now does massive damage.
Now that I'm done mocking you I'd like to second the rebuild idea. You can always optomize, but try doing it in such a way where you're helping the party. With improved trip and toppling spell and magical lineage (magic missile), you can launch multiple missiles that trip as a level 1 spell and with spell combat you can physically trip a target with a melee as well.
I have a character that does this (as a str magus, but it doesn't matter). It's actually an amazing controller build whivh lets the other melee characters do the work of killing opponents.
There's also the int build, you can get spell focus and and traits/feats to increase caster level and dc's for evocation spells or a specific spell like fireball. Take the extra arcane pool feat whennever possible and use spell recall to get back lost fireballs. Thi is less melee focused so it may give that paladin more spotlight.
There are a million things you can do besides massive melee damage.
Thank you for all your input!
@Dave Justus
Summoning is sadly restricted by our GM, because 6 player are already more PCs than she likes to take care of. I kind of understand that, especially it makes the battles even more time consuming, so i try to stay away from summonings, companions,familiars, and so on.
A frost-debuffer sounds interesting. I think i remember 1 or 2 spells and feats which are working together pretty good.
@Rhaleroad
I maybe aimed too high with 75, i just did a quick excel sheet and got 74.something. Nonetheless, 10 is not unlikely. The Paladin has neither used smite yet,nor Power Attack. The Cleric has still 9000gp in her pocket, because she does not know what to buy with it. The Rogue player is trying pen&paper for the first time, i have to explain her flanking from time to time again. But you are right, she can deal some damage! And no, technically i am not the problem, but my way is to go with the flow when i join a new group - so practically it is my problem ;-)
@Zolanoteph
No worries, i deserve that! To be honest, i have played a system and with a group for more than 20 years in which atmosphere came first, efficiency last. After moving due to my job and finding this new group i was hyped like a kid to finally do some theorycrafting for the first time. I mean, come on, how much immersion can there be in a World in which magical items have the suffix of "+1". How do you even talk to a merchant that you only can afford the sword for 2000 instead of 8000gp? A system in which magic items are usual as rats being your first enemies in video game rpgs! And I ran into the trap with open eyes - so yeah, i know i deserve some rant :-D
Didn't look into the trip mechanic yet (and nor has the GM, i guess), but if strength is needed it would probably not fit, cause i play a halfling. I will have a look at it though!
TL;DR Thanks everyone, i take away that i should look more into the support/debuff sections of the Magus, so i can probably stick with the class and character. I will do this right now!
I agree about the summoning thing. I love playing summoning characters, but even a party of 5 is a little too crowded for that play style.
Maybe just stop playing him as a frontliner? A slight rebuild may be in order. Build him as more of a red mage from final fantasy. Focus on underpowered damage or control spells, but don't be afraid of a game saving nuke strike every once in a while.
Moving into more of a support/assist role seems to be what you want as it sounds like you are the obvious best player at the table.
It seems like the problem is that your fellows are not skilled at optimizing characters for combat, and combat is an important part of the GM's campaign.
It sounds like the Paladin's problem is that he is getting hosed about opportunities to use Smite Evil.
Maybe you could remonstrate with the GM on his behalf to either throw some Smite Evil opportunities his way or maybe the GM could allow the Paladin Player to play something else more fighty and less smity.
Maybe you could convince the Bard to be a Flame Dancer Bard and then convince the Cleric with 9000gp burning a hole in his pocket to buy an Eversmoking Bottle. An Eversmoking Bottle makes Everyone Blind. A Firedancer Bard empowers all his allies to see through the smoke, and presto! everyone in the party is rocking the Combat, too!
You could dip a level in Cavalier and take Broken Wing Gambit. Cavaliers have a Class Ability that lets them Gift their Teamwork Feat to all their Allies. Broken Wing Gambit will make it so if anyone in the party is attacked, everyone in the party gets an Attack of Opportunity. That won't fix the problem of outclassing your fellow players, but at least now you will be the one who gives everybody else bonus attacks.
If you're looking to change classes, was thinking maybe a Mobility Monk, either as a Core or Unchained. For monk ki powers I'd go with the mobility ones which will then allow you to set up flanking for the rogue and defensive powers since you will probably end up surrounding yourself with enemies.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Go aether kineticist and add utility at expense of damage. You will rarely, if ever do burst damage.
That said, my preference always is to bring the others UP, instead of nerfing you down.
Read the PRD section on monster stats by cr. The party is seriously lagging behind the curve for even a standard 15 point buy game.
No the paladin does not have to smite or power attack. The rogue does not have to flank. You could also choose to fight bare-handed, but the classes have those abilities for a reason. The game assumes you will use these abilities appropriately otherwise on level challenges will swamp you, or in your case, one person may shine but simply doing what his class can do.
Also as others have pointed out, what role does everyone see themselves in? Strikers are supposed to do damage...a support class/build is not.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rather than a rebuild, I also think it might be enough to change your spell selection.
You just got 3rd Level spells. Take Haste and tell the witch doctor you will handle doing it at the start of combat, they can open with a different spell. Your initiative is likely high enough that you frequently act before the Paladin and maybe the Rogue.
Area denial and debuff spells work well on a Magus.
You have good Dex, how about your acrobatics? Maybe you could start actively flanking with the Rogue to show them what happens rather than putting it all on them.
You could also clue in your GM that your CMD is much lower than that of the Paladin as a way to allow another character to shine in a way that doesn’t totally wreck things. She should use this sparingly, but it is one of the normal weaknesses of the Magus.
My suggestion is to play more of a back line caster rather than a frontline basher. This will give you a handicap vs playing a wizard in the same role, but still give you and “out” if combat gets too rough as you can stab/nova your way out of a desperate fight.
Again, thank you all so much for your contributions!! Yeah, i guess one side of the coin is our GM as well. I feel a bit uneasy by buffing all the other players/characters. I mean we wouldn't have this problem, if she would be 100% proficient with the rules (like i said, there is no surprise round, drawing weapons takes no time, etc.) and i don't want to be THE guy who steps up and undermines her authority. That's not cool and like i said, everybody else has fun. So i don't think that leading the other players into the more optimized direction will be a solution for this particular problem.
Rylar wrote: My suggestion is to play more of a back line caster rather than a frontline basher. This will give you a handicap vs playing a wizard in the same role, but still give you and “out” if combat gets too rough as you can stab/nova your way out of a desperate fight. Yeah, i thought about that in the meantime as well! I am not sure yet how i want to communicate this change in playstyle, but i guess it will be the smoothest solution. Additionally, i thought about picking up the Craft Wondrous Item trait. This way i can ramp up the gear of everyone a bit and will contribute to the group.
I came to this idea because i really thought about switching the character. After a few days i learned some things about myself. That it is hard for me to actively build an anti-optimized build. Which really annoys me! But i also found out that the "Craft X" feats can help me contribute to the group and do something for them with their money. Luckily my Magus has a high spellcraft ratio already, so no cheating needed. Next playtime will be on friday. I will see how much adjustments i can make until then!
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