Ways to get snapping flank (need a bite attack)


Advice

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Talonhawke wrote:
Lady-J wrote:

if you gain a swift action attack and its used during the same round as a full attack its taken as part of the full attack, see monk flurry bonus attack ki strike

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Well, that's clearly false. You don't need extra limbs to make attacks of opportunity.
aoos happen outside your round and are unaffected by the 1 natural attack per limb per round rule
Not entirely true while their aren't a lot there are ways to force an enemy to provoke during your turn. Meaning that that you could open up a chance to take an AoO during your turn and take it with the same weapon natural or otherwise you have already attacked with.

the act of an aoo puts the turns on hold once they are all resolved the round and all the rules of the round are put into motion again


Saldiven wrote:

Despite all your arguments presented thus far, Lady-J, you still haven't presented one shred of evidence from published Paizo rules that prevent anything other than iterative attacks from high BAB with a Natural Attack.

I do not understand the logic behind a rule stating natural attacks don't get extra attacks for high BAB getting turned into natural attacks never being able to get extra attacks from other sources.

post to me the rules on how dead things cant take actions or were unconscious creatures fall prone, its implied by the limitations of other rules put in place


Saldiven wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
just like how you cant use a short sword and a claw attack with your one hand, and you cant make two bite attacks in the same round unless you have two heads, one natural attack per limb per round
Of course you can make two bite attacks in a round, Haste has always permitted that.
haste has also been called out by the devs to allow an extra natural attack
Please cite where they did that and also even remotely implied that this was the only way to gain multiple attacks in the same round with the same natural weapons.
while he may not be the rules guy
James Jacobs wrote:
Haste grants you one bonus attack, including natural attacks.


Rylar wrote:
The derailment of the thread on the viability or wether the feat works really isn’t appreciated.

Sorry for my part in it. I am giving you my best advice in good faith according to what the rules say.

And people who have concerns about whether taking the Feat you want at all is illegal or ill-advised are doing you a favor by raising their concerns, even if they/we/I are wrong. We're all trying to help.

Rylar wrote:

Looks like the best options are

-find an item (assuming this qualifies me for the feat, still not clear here)
-dip into another class (I prefer barbarian)
-use two feats on racial heritage and the half orc feat.

The weird thing is, if I go barbarian I want orc heritage for the rage teamwork feat.

If you are taking Racial Heritage Orc anyway for Rage Teamwork Feats, then go ahead and take Razortusk, too as long as you're in the neighborhood.

Scarab Sages

Lady-J wrote:
Saldiven wrote:

Despite all your arguments presented thus far, Lady-J, you still haven't presented one shred of evidence from published Paizo rules that prevent anything other than iterative attacks from high BAB with a Natural Attack.

I do not understand the logic behind a rule stating natural attacks don't get extra attacks for high BAB getting turned into natural attacks never being able to get extra attacks from other sources.

post to me the rules on how dead things cant take actions or were unconscious creatures fall prone, its implied by the limitations of other rules put in place

Okay, sorry for the derailment on this post. I won't post a second time on this particular issue.

But, I do have to say that it is a mistake to believe that a dead creature can not take actions. Of course dead creatures can take actions. Their souls are off on to the river of souls and have actions available to them on their trip to Pharasma, dodging the predators and hoping the protecting outsiders do their job well. As the soul is the part of a being that has control then this bit of text covers why their leftover body can no longer take actions.
Conditions: Dead wrote:
"The character’s hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body."

As for falling prone... well, not all creatures fall prone when they fall unconscious. So it wouldn't be the general rule. Take snakes, for instance. But any creature that requires active effort to stand will fall over if they are not conscious if it is possible to fall prone in their surroundings.

There also is this little bit...
Core Rulebook, p. 440 wrote:
"The Material Plane tends to be the most Earth-like of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does.."

If a man fall unconscious in the real world, typically, he falls down.

This falls under the heading of so obvious it shouldn't need to be said. Not the same with the rules for how many attacks you may make, which are not obvious.

Scarab Sages

You could also take a level of sorcerer, orc blooded to get...

"Orc BLoodline wrote:
"Bloodline Arcana: You gain the orc subtype, including darkvision 60 feet and light sensitivity. If you already have darkvision, its range increases to 90 feet. Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

and then you can take the additional traits feat to pick up Tusked.

Or ask your GM if having the Orc and Human subtypes mean you count as a half-orc... which would allow you to pick up Razortusk. But the other way gives you an additional trait with the bite.


Lady-J wrote:
post to me the rules on how dead things cant take actions or were unconscious creatures fall prone, its implied by the limitations of other rules put in place

The first half of your post is completely irrelevant. I'll use the technical turn: Red Herring Fallacy.

The rules imply nothing beyond what is stated. They rules state Natural Attacks do not get extra attacks from a high BAB. They make no assertion or implication about anything beyond that.

Lady-J wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
just like how you cant use a short sword and a claw attack with your one hand, and you cant make two bite attacks in the same round unless you have two heads, one natural attack per limb per round
Of course you can make two bite attacks in a round, Haste has always permitted that.
haste has also been called out by the devs to allow an extra natural attack
Please cite where they did that and also even remotely implied that this was the only way to gain multiple attacks in the same round with the same natural weapons.
while he may not be the rules guy
James Jacobs wrote:
Haste grants you one bonus attack, including natural attacks.

I've ready Mr. Jacob's post about twenty times now, and I cannot see any assertion or implication that Haste is the only way to gain additional attacks from a Natural Attack in your turn.


I'm going to take this discussion to the rules forum in an effort to not further derail the discusion.


I wrote:
"for a high base attack bonus," they must be referring to the Full Attack Action. They are not saying here that you can't gain extra Bite Attacks some other way.
Lady-J wrote:
only way to get more attacks is to either have more limbs to make the attacks or to increase your bab since natural attacks cant benefit from bab you need more limbs in order to make more natural attacks in a round, 1 limb one natural attack
I wrote:
Well, that's clearly false.... attacks of opportunity... Snake Fang... attack as a Immediate Action... You can make Unarmed Strikes without having extra limbs.... Greater Grapple... Rapid Grappler... Whirlwind Attack or Great Cleave
You wrote:
aoos happen outside your round... unarmed strikes are not natural attacks... grapple combat maneuver is not a natural attack... both those feats [Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave] call out being able to make extra attacks in circumstances were you would not

Your counterpoints are not countering my point. You seem to be saying there is a maximum number of attacks you can make in a round that is dictated by your Base Attack Bonus/#of natural attacks, and I have proven that is not true. What you said seems to be true about the Full Attack Action, but there are lots of ways of making attacks that have nothing to do with the Full Attack Action and have nothing to do with your BAB or # of Natural Attacks.

Although,

You, regarding Great Cleave wrote:
call out being able to make extra attacks in circumstances were you would not be able to snapping flanker

That is sort of to the point. Here it looks like you are saying you can't take a Swift Action in the same round as you take a Cleave Action (or a Full Round Action?), and maybe you are also saying that if Rylar the OP attempted to either Cleave or Full Attack he would not be able to get his Swift Action Bite Attack through Snapping Flank, and therefore you advise against his taking Snapping Flank. I haven't found any evidence in support of this. Would you please cite your evidence?

The closest thing I have been able to find is that you can't take a 5' Step in the middle of Cleave Action such as to line up more targets for your Great Cleave. In fact, there are special Half Orc Feats, Follow Through Feats, that the OP can consider looking at, since he is thinking of taking Racial Heritage Half Orc as it is, that specifically let you take 5' Steps during your Cleave.

But not being able to take a 5' step during a Cleave is not the same thing as not being able to take any Swift Action at all, and not being able to take a Swift Action during a Cleave is not the same thing as not being able to take a Swift Action in the same round as you take Cleave. Please bring more evidence.

Lady-J wrote:
if you gain a swift action attack and its used during the same round as a full attack its taken as part of the full attack

Now this is precisely to the point. You are saying that any bonus Attack achieved through a Swift Action is considered to be part of the Full Attack Action, and so when the OP takes Snapping Flank, any time he made attacks with weapons and then made his Swift Action Bite Attack, his Swift Action Bite Attack would suffer the penalties of being a Secondary Natural Attack: -5 to hit, 1/2 ST Mod to Damage. Would you please bring supporting evidence?

Lady-J wrote:
see monk flurry bonus attack ki strike

Ah! supporting evidence:

Monk, Ki Pool wrote:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.... At 7th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as cold iron and silver... 10th level... lawful weapons... 16th level,... adamantine.

Okay, Ki Strike has nothing to do with bonus attacks, but reading further,

Monk, Ki Pool wrote:
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can... Make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack

This is evidence in support of one of my main points. Spending a Ki Point in this way is a Swift Action

Monk, Ki Pool wrote:
these powers is activated as a swift action.

To be done in conjunction with Flurry of Blows, which is a kind of Full Attack Action.

Monk, Flurry of Blows wrote:
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

But just because this 1 power is activated as a Swift Action and provides a bonus to a particular kind of Full Attack Action, that does not mean that all kinds of Swift Actions taken at the same time as all kinds of Full Attack Actions only can be done as part of that Full Attack Action. Your argument is too far-reaching to be supported by this evidence alone. You need more.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
But just because this 1 power is activated as a Swift Action and provides a bonus to a particular kind of Full Attack Action, that does not mean that all kinds of Swift Actions taken at the same time as all kinds of Full Attack Actions only can be done as part of that Full Attack Action

not all swift actions are providing extra attacks, a swift action like smite would not be made as part of the full attack as its not an attack but would come before the full attack to give the full attack the bonuses of the smite, a swift action attack would be made in conjunction with a full attack as that's what a full attack is all your attacks you can muster, or in conjunction with any other sort of attack option you make


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We could debate for hours if power attack actually does exactly what it says too, but that would be just as pointless. The feat has already been approved, by the grand authority in our games, as we have translated the words. The question of how the feat works was never the point of the thread, only how to qualify for it on a character that is already a level 2 human hunter.

Now, half the tread is a debate about the merits of the feat and the rules surrounding it (and apparently dead people attacking?). If I had a rules question about the feat I would ask in the rules forum...


Rylar wrote:

We could debate for hours if power attack actually does exactly what it says too, but that would be just as pointless. The feat has already been approved, by the grand authority in our games, as we have translated the words. The question of how the feat works was never the point of the thread, only how to qualify for it on a character that is already a level 2 human hunter.

Now, half the tread is a debate about the merits of the feat and the rules surrounding it (and apparently dead people attacking?). If I had a rules question about the feat I would ask in the rules forum...

But sir!

But haven't we answered all your questions? Ring of Ratfangs, Animal Mask, Racial Heritage Half Orc followed by Razortusk? Barbarian Rage Powers, Witch curses? I'll add another way to get a Bite Attack: Polymorphing. Alter Self, Wild Shape. You can get if faster by being some kind of Animal Shaman.

Then we expanded on the advice, exploring what it is like to combine Snapping Flank with Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, and Full Attacks. Then I explored other options you can pursue since you are thinking about taking Racial Heritage Half Orc.

Maybe you can share some more detail about your character to help us foucs our advice.

Rylar wrote:
The question of how the feat works was never the point of the thread, only how to qualify for it on a character that is already a level 2 human hunter.

You need a Bite Attack and a BAB of +9. If you stick with Hunter, you can't get it until level 12. You can get it faster by taking levels in other classes tht grant full BAB like Fighter, Ranger, or something. I'm pretty sure you've already been told that.

What more could you possibly want that we haven't already given you?


Yeah that BAB is the kicker. You can't skip it, barring something like ranger feat lists that allow skipping but there a no such list I know of for ya.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

Folks, the OP is looking for ways to use a rule, not debate on what you think the merits of the rule itself are. Please circle back to the topic or take the existential rules debate to another thread.

Rylar wrote:

How are some ways to get a bite attack to meet the prereq for snapping flank?

I could go half-orc and take a trait, but I'm already human.

The adopted stuff is overly cheesy for my tastes.

Currently a level 2 Hunter. Must have level 3 hunter before doing anything else (just my preference).

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