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Assume both Blow a feat to use a Large Bastard sword(The highest damage die weapon a normal PC can get)
A Barbarian Full Attacker with Power Attack and Access to Pounce
Will ultimately do more damage......assuming all of his attacks hit
Vital strike not only allows for more mobility, but will be more accurate with the furious focus feat. Not to mention Bloodragers seem made for this kind of build with bloodied arcane strike.
So Lets Assume its a Full Attacking Barbarian vs A Vital Striking Bloodrager. And just to make it a little more fair, lets say the Bloodrager can't use his spells for some reason and only has access to his bloodrage ability.(Arcane Bloodline Assumed)
So Who would win and/or who would be more useful in a fight?
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Without doing a full mockup of both I would say that the pouncing barbarian will win hands down. Unless there's been some change, the vital strike line only adds base weapon damage.
At 11th level a vital striking barbarian is doing about 6d10+30 (63ish) while the pouncing barbarian is going to be hitting for 2d10+30/2d10+30/2d10+30. Even if he only hits twice that's 82 damage.
These are just made up numbers but you get the idea.
Both Bloodrager and Barbarian are terrifying opponents. Barb's offense tends to be a bit better at offense while the Bloodrager tends to have more utility/defensive options.
Displacement as a swift action is awesome.
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At 11th level a vital striking barbarian is doing about 6d10+30 (63ish) while the pouncing barbarian is going to be hitting for 2d10+30/2d10+30/2d10+30. Even if he only hits twice that's 82 damage.Take a look at the beastkin berserker archetype. At 11th level, you can turn into an arsinoitherium, grab Improved Natural Attack (gore), and attack with Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish (rage cycling) for 150+ damage as a standard action.
Yeah but that kinda just goes on to prove his point, the Barbarian is pretty much raw damage and nothing else, while the bloodrager is much more flexible, Which unless you wanna go full hulk smash on someone most, are gonna prefer the one that's the most adaptable.
Yeah but that kinda just goes on to prove his point, the Barbarian is pretty much raw damage and nothing else, while the bloodrager is much more flexible, Which unless you wanna go full hulk smash on someone most, are gonna prefer the one that's the most adaptable.At 11th level a vital striking barbarian is doing about 6d10+30 (63ish) while the pouncing barbarian is going to be hitting for 2d10+30/2d10+30/2d10+30. Even if he only hits twice that's 82 damage.Take a look at the beastkin berserker archetype. At 11th level, you can turn into an arsinoitherium, grab Improved Natural Attack (gore), and attack with Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish (rage cycling) for 150+ damage as a standard action.
The hell kind of Barbarians have you been building? Barbarians have plenty of rage powers that grant excellent utility abilities beyond raw damage.
Yeah but that kinda just goes on to prove his point, the Barbarian is pretty much raw damage and nothing else, while the bloodrager is much more flexible, Which unless you wanna go full hulk smash on someone most, are gonna prefer the one that's the most adaptable.At 11th level a vital striking barbarian is doing about 6d10+30 (63ish) while the pouncing barbarian is going to be hitting for 2d10+30/2d10+30/2d10+30. Even if he only hits twice that's 82 damage.Take a look at the beastkin berserker archetype. At 11th level, you can turn into an arsinoitherium, grab Improved Natural Attack (gore), and attack with Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish (rage cycling) for 150+ damage as a standard action.Of course it's more flexible; it has spells. I wasn't speaking to the question of barbarian vs. bloodrager, but rather to the question of pounce vs. vital strike.
And if a bloodrager is built for damage, they can beat out a barbarian pretty handily on that front as well.
You still get the edge with pounce.
one of the most immediate factors to consider is haste, and other similar effects. With another attack at full BAB, you are getting much more damage reliably. Haste effects are really good- good enough to consider, even if you are dealing with mythic vital strike (which multiplies pretty much every bonus on your attack as well as the dase weapon damage; mythic vital strike has the advantage of pretty much ignoring all DR with sheer force).
Additionally, since we are talking about barbarians, they could also take that one rage power that lowers AC and raises attack (scaling matches power attack penalties and beast totem natural armor bonuses). Once you get high damage attacks without the loss in accuracy, that makes iteratives all the more deadly.
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You still get the edge with pounce.Oh, don't get me wrong, pounce is all sorts of lovely. But even with a haste effect up, you've still got to work pretty hard to match the way Furious Finish can just straight-up say "You take 144 damage. Oh, and now let's add all my bonuses on top of that."
Just call it the Dragon Slayer Build.
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well large bastard sword isn't the biggest damage die weapon that would be the butchering axe, the answer is a little less black and white then one would think, questions that need to be asked are, is mythic allowed if so vital strike comes in on top, question two how much size increase shenanigans are you going to be doing if the answer is a lot then vital strike comes out a head, then there's the question of are you willing to take 6 levels in a prestige class, if the answer is yes then vital strike is a no brainer as you will then be able to use vital strike with any attack option that is used as a standard action so things like cleave or other similar abilities
1.No Mythic is not allowed, if it was we would be fighting deities and i rather not deal with that.
2. At the very least Enlarge person would be a factor, specially since bloodrager can cast it on himself with zero problems.
3. What prestige class we talking about? But generally no. After a certain point you realize that its best to just go straight into whatever class You're in.
Sheer numbers wise, I imagine pounce will always win out but that doesn’t mean you can’t have fun with vital strike.
Take an enlarged bloodrager with a large bastard sword of impact, then swap out one of the bloodline powers for raging leaper and bestial leaper rage powers.
Bestial Leaper (Ex): While raging, the barbarian can take a move action to move and can take her normal standard action at any point during the move. A barbarian must have the raging leaper rage power and be at least 6th level before selecting this rage power.
Then switch to rogue (scout) for guaranteed sneak attack.
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
You can move, vital strike, and move, with an attack that will probably have close to a 95% success rate (especially if you throw in true strike), then roll a fistful of dice for damage.
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Sheer numbers wise, I imagine pounce will always win out but that doesn’t mean you can’t have fun with vital strike.
Take an enlarged bloodrager with a large bastard sword of impact, then swap out one of the bloodline powers for raging leaper and bestial leaper rage powers.
Bestial Leaper (Ex): While raging, the barbarian can take a move action to move and can take her normal standard action at any point during the move. A barbarian must have the raging leaper rage power and be at least 6th level before selecting this rage power.Then switch to rogue (scout) for guaranteed sneak attack.
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.You can move, vital strike, and move, with an attack that will probably have close to a 95% success rate (especially if you throw in true strike), then roll a fistful of dice for damage.
No Primalist.
The pouncing barbarian wins and a well built barbarian can have utility while doing a lot of damage. He is already getting a full attack on round one with pounce. After the 2nd full attack the fight is over barring something crazy like really low rolls.
Take a look at the beastkin berserker archetype. At 11th level, you can turn into an arsinoitherium, grab Improved Natural Attack (gore), and attack with Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish (rage cycling) for 150+ damage as a standard action.
(...)
even with a haste effect up, you've still got to work pretty hard to match the way Furious Finish can just straight-up say "You take 144 damage. Oh, and now let's add all my bonuses on top of that."
I take that challenge!
11th level, 34 strength while raging, +2 AoMF, Haste, against average CR 11 monster, let's say both use Internal Fortitude for rage cycling.VS build: PA, VS, iVS, Furious Focus, INA, Furious Finish; Internal Fortitude, Reckless Abandon. DPR (Arsinoitherium): 168.
Pounce build: PA, Reckless Rage; Reckless Abandon, Internal Fortitude, Lesser Elemental Rage, Elemental Rage, Lesser Fiend Totem. DPR on pounce (Dire Tiger): 172, on consecutive rounds (Giant Octopus): 259.
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Yeah... it's a big hit from the Bloodrager, particularly with an Impact weapon, blooded arcane strike, power attack, and other benefits that may come from your bloodrage, but even then we're looking at... what, 9d8+21, or ~61 damage before Strength and enhancement bonuses, which is a pretty solid hit, but won't come close to the damage a full-attack character can deal. Even if the above numbers got pumped up by 20 it wouldn't compete that well.
That being said, your defenses would probably be better, and all your damage is frontloaded on your highest attack bonus, which is nice, plus you need to be less concerned about DR. As a quality-of-life choice, it's not a bad option. As a primary form of combat? I dunno. It's relatively feat intensive (5 of your 8 feats going towards it, 6 if you grab Furious Focus) option whereas the pouncing barbarian only uses 2 of his 6 feats, which opens him up to all sorts of fun. (To be fair, those numbers are skewed by the requisite Bastard Sword proficiency, but you can get that from an Ioun Stone if you need to.)
It would be cool to see, but only with the right build. And come on, Primalist is legit. Every bloodline has powers you don't care about, and 2 rage powers for it? Icing on the WIN cake.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Vital Strike really isn't a replacement for full attacks. I tend to think of it as a consolation prize for rounds when you have to move.
The bloodrager I'm currently playing gets a lot of use out of Vital Strike. My usual round by round tactics:
Rage, move up, Vital Strike one attack
Full attack foe to death
Move up to next foe and Vital Strike
etc.
I'm using a greatsword with Blooded Arcane Strike, so Vital Strike adds +10 damage on average on rounds when I have to move (I'm level 10). That's worth a feat to me. I haven't decided yet whether Improved Vital Strike is happening.
In general pounce is better than vital strikes because full attack routines are in general better than a single attack.
Two hits from a full attack will (almost) always be more damage than vital strike since vital strike only gives you multiple instances of weapon damage (the smallest part of your total damage).
All other things being equal, a vital strike strategy vs a pouncing strategy will lose.
Think of it like this, the best case scenario for vital strike is:
Vital striker goes first, moves in and gets 1 attack with vital strike.
Pouncer full attacks and gets (probably) at least two attacks. Vital striker either moves away and doesn't attack (really stupid) or vital strikes and moves away (also stupid) or full attacks (but now he's playing the pouncer's game). Assuming he vital strikes and moves away, the pouncer follows and full attacks again. Repeat until the vital striker is dead.
As Ryric notes, Vital Strike is at best a consolation prize for having to move and attack, and not having access to pounce.
Vital Strike might work better with, say, a reach weapon and a tripping build.
Best case scenario:
Vital striker goes first, hangs back and readies an action to attack.
Pouncer pounces. Vital striker hits him with the readied action (a vital strike), then trips him on the AoO. This prevents the pounce.
Vital striker's turn - he vital strikes the enemy again while he's prone and then retreats away to prevent a counterattack...
Of course, if you can get that to work, you don't really need Vital Strike...
The thing is though, if the pouncer has a reach weapon then the tactic is nullified. It has nothing to do with vital strike and everything to do with reach and movement denial.
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The thing is though, if the pouncer has a reach weapon then the tactic is nullified. It has nothing to do with vital strike and everything to do with reach and movement denial.
The problem is that such a mindset assumes
A. That the fighting ground is a big open area where the pouncer can move about freely
and
B. That there are no obstacles between the Pouncer and their target.
Once You put those into the equation, Pounce builds Start to become a lot more situational.
Personally I like Ryrics approach, using it as a means to still do decent damage while getting close enough to full attack, without having to rely on a straight forward charge that can be cockblocked by terrain.
Really the Pouncer only really wins if it just comes down to trading blows, in an open area, with no cover or terrain.
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The thing is though, if the pouncer has a reach weapon then the tactic is nullified. It has nothing to do with vital strike and everything to do with reach and movement denial.Yeah but that is a whole different can of worms.
What if the vital striker doesn't have a reach weapon and then takes a 5ft step into the pouncer, then has Step Up (or Step up and Strike) so now the pouncer closed the distance, yes, gets a full attack, yes, but now has issues because he can't effectively attack. Double kudos if the readied action is to move 5ft toward the pouncer after the pounce. Thus the pouncer pounces, maybe gets an AoO, and then loses the ability to full attack at all.
Or, alternatively, if the pouncer doesn't have a reach weapon, depending on the opponent's build, they can attack, stop the pouncer from being able to AoO and in some cases take a 5ft step, then step back one square, and now the pouncer can't pounce.
There are all kinds of ways to hinder and mitigate pounce.
Exactly Really people make Pouncing out to be much more powerful then it actually is.
I think the only really competitive vital strike characters are people who can manage to vital strike twice in a round (Greatsword wielding devout Gorumites with Felling Smash and Greater Trip, and Vigilantes with something similar to force an AoO on attack), personally.
Just the fact that the pouncing character gets to add their static damage modifiers to every attack and the VS character doesn't puts the latter well behind. I mean, when you're talking about a barbarian or a bloodrager, those bonuses are large.
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I would just like to say, if terrain is ever causing you to not get pounce you're just not trying hard. Feather step slippers are cheap, get multiple pairs.
There are ways to deny pounce, but those tactics are just as effective at denying other melee characters not using pounce as well. It just "costs" the poucning character more because they had greater potential compared to the other character.
The thing is though, if the pouncer has a reach weapon then the tactic is nullified. It has nothing to do with vital strike and everything to do with reach and movement denial.The problem is that such a mindset assumes
A. That the fighting ground is a big open area where the pouncer can move about freely
and
B. That there are no obstacles between the Pouncer and their target.Once You put those into the equation, Pounce builds Start to become a lot more situational.
Personally I like Ryrics approach, using it as a means to still do decent damage while getting close enough to full attack, without having to rely on a straight forward charge that can be cockblocked by terrain.
Really the Pouncer only really wins if it just comes down to trading blows, in an open area, with no cover or terrain.
You can always change things so that one side can't do something, but in most combats there will be a clear lane to the opponent. Otherwise they can't engage in melee. You only need to move 10 feet to charge. In a game with party members they could be in the way, but most of the time a charging lane will be available.
Also you post compared vital strike to pounce and just assuming those two get to be used pounce is going to win.
PS:It doesn't have to be in an open area. The biggest issue would be difficult terrain, but there are feats that let you ignore difficult terrain. There are also featherstep slippers which are less than 3000 gp
Full Attack Pounce is going to be the better option 9/10 times unless the GM is going out of his way to make sure the pouncer can't charge.
But if the GM is against you, you might as well take your books and go home.
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The thing is though, if the pouncer has a reach weapon then the tactic is nullified. It has nothing to do with vital strike and everything to do with reach and movement denial.The problem is that such a mindset assumes
A. That the fighting ground is a big open area where the pouncer can move about freely
and
B. That there are no obstacles between the Pouncer and their target.Once You put those into the equation, Pounce builds Start to become a lot more situational.
Personally I like Ryrics approach, using it as a means to still do decent damage while getting close enough to full attack, without having to rely on a straight forward charge that can be cockblocked by terrain.
Really the Pouncer only really wins if it just comes down to trading blows, in an open area, with no cover or terrain.
You can always change things so that one side can't do something, but in most combats there will be a clear lane to the opponent. Otherwise they can't engage in melee. You only need to move 10 feet to charge. In a game with party members they could be in the way, but most of the time a charging lane will be available.
Also you post compared vital strike to pounce and just assuming those two get to be used pounce is going to win.
PS:It doesn't have to be in an open area. The biggest issue would be difficult terrain, but there are feats that let you ignore difficult terrain. There are also featherstep slippers which are less than 3000 gp
But wouldn't that mean you're pooling all your resources to be good at one thing at the expense of everything else?
Vital Strike is for the times you cannot guarantee that all your strikes will hit.
Pounce does allow you to get a few more full attacks, but since you cannot guarantee all will hit, 1 strike at full BAB can sometimes be better than the full attack.
Your first iterative attack should hit reliably for both full and 3/4 BAB characters, the issue though is that the full BAB character your second iterative inches closer and closer as you level to the first iterative for a 3/4 BAB character. So Vital Strike is great for people like Warpriests, who can get the feats on a full-BAB schedule, but without full-BAB accuracy on iterative attacks but it's less attractive to fighters, rangers, barbarians, and the like who can hit pretty reliably with their second iterative (or even more attacks if you use TWF or similar).
Alternatively, the Vital Strike vs. Pounce question can be answered looking at the opportunity cost involved- literally any class can do vital strike, all it costs are feats; whereas most classes cannot easily access pounce. So if you happen to be playing a class that get easy, and largely unlimited access to pounce, why not go that way? The classes that have easy access to pounce are pretty much the barbarian, the avenger vigilante, a monk that doesn't use weapons, and anything with wild shape. Everybody else has to work at it. Pounce with a greatsword is hard to get; vital strike with a greatsword is really easy to get.
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Vital Strike is for the times you cannot guarantee that all your strikes will hit.
Pounce does allow you to get a few more full attacks, but since you cannot guarantee all will hit, 1 strike at full BAB can sometimes be better than the full attack.
Your first iterative attack should hit reliably for both full and 3/4 BAB characters, the issue though is that the full BAB character your second iterative inches closer and closer as you level to the first iterative for a 3/4 BAB character. So Vital Strike is great for people like Warpriests, who can get the feats on a full-BAB schedule, but without full-BAB accuracy on iterative attacks but it's less attractive to fighters, rangers, barbarians, and the like who can hit pretty reliably with their second iterative (or even more attacks if you use TWF or similar).
Alternatively, the Vital Strike vs. Pounce question can be answered looking at the opportunity cost involved- literally any class can do vital strike, all it costs are feats; whereas most classes cannot easily access pounce. So if you happen to be playing a class that get easy, and largely unlimited access to pounce, why not go that way? The classes that have easy access to pounce are pretty much the barbarian, the avenger vigilante, a monk that doesn't use weapons, and anything with wild shape. Everybody else has to work at it. Pounce with a greatsword is hard to get; vital strike with a greatsword is really easy to get.
Im still not convinced that charging wouldn't be really situational
Remember folks vital strike can also be used at range...
***Tumble weeds***
Hello...
Hello???
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Oh it can cant it? Hello Sniper Build.Remember folks vital strike can also be used at range...
***Tumble weeds***
Hello...
Hello???
:(
Why not full attack? That was my lame joke. Unless you're doing it in the surprise round?
But wouldn't that mean you're pooling all your resources to be good at one thing at the expense of everything else?The thing is though, if the pouncer has a reach weapon then the tactic is nullified. It has nothing to do with vital strike and everything to do with reach and movement denial.The problem is that such a mindset assumes
A. That the fighting ground is a big open area where the pouncer can move about freely
and
B. That there are no obstacles between the Pouncer and their target.Once You put those into the equation, Pounce builds Start to become a lot more situational.
Personally I like Ryrics approach, using it as a means to still do decent damage while getting close enough to full attack, without having to rely on a straight forward charge that can be cockblocked by terrain.
Really the Pouncer only really wins if it just comes down to trading blows, in an open area, with no cover or terrain.
You can always change things so that one side can't do something, but in most combats there will be a clear lane to the opponent. Otherwise they can't engage in melee. You only need to move 10 feet to charge. In a game with party members they could be in the way, but most of the time a charging lane will be available.
Also you post compared vital strike to pounce and just assuming those two get to be used pounce is going to win.
PS:It doesn't have to be in an open area. The biggest issue would be difficult terrain, but there are feats that let you ignore difficult terrain. There are also featherstep slippers which are less than 3000 gp
As martial character you want full attacks as much as possible. You can get pounce and still have utility with a barbarian. If you go with the feats that let you ignore difficult terrain it's a larger investment than the slippers, but it's not so big that you can only hit things hard and do nothing else.
It's only about 3 rage powers to pounce. Power Attack is something barbarians will take anyway. You can still take things such as superstition to boost your saves, destroy traps, and so on.
Using 3 rage powers and getting an item that is under 3000 gp is not even close to "all your resources".
edit: The feat route allows you to ignore difficult terrain, and allies who are in the way, and its only two feats to do it.
Even on a level 10 character you still have more than half of your feats, and more than half of your rage powers to devote to anything else.
3 rage powers used, and 3 feats used(if you dont want to pay for the slippers). Anything else is up to you
Vital Strike is for the times you cannot guarantee that all your strikes will hit.
Pounce does allow you to get a few more full attacks, but since you cannot guarantee all will hit, 1 strike at full BAB can sometimes be better than the full attack.
Your first iterative attack should hit reliably for both full and 3/4 BAB characters, the issue though is that the full BAB character your second iterative inches closer and closer as you level to the first iterative for a 3/4 BAB character. So Vital Strike is great for people like Warpriests, who can get the feats on a full-BAB schedule, but without full-BAB accuracy on iterative attacks but it's less attractive to fighters, rangers, barbarians, and the like who can hit pretty reliably with their second iterative (or even more attacks if you use TWF or similar).
Alternatively, the Vital Strike vs. Pounce question can be answered looking at the opportunity cost involved- literally any class can do vital strike, all it costs are feats; whereas most classes cannot easily access pounce. So if you happen to be playing a class that get easy, and largely unlimited access to pounce, why not go that way? The classes that have easy access to pounce are pretty much the barbarian, the avenger vigilante, a monk that doesn't use weapons, and anything with wild shape. Everybody else has to work at it. Pounce with a greatsword is hard to get; vital strike with a greatsword is really easy to get.
Im still not convinced that charging wouldn't be really situational
It might not be in your games, but I've seen it in real games. This isn't theorycrafting.
I really don't see how it isn't possible most of the time.
Like I said the only thing that stops a charge are lack of distance(only 10 feet needed), difficult terrain(solved by a cheap magic item), and your team mates getting in your way. The last is solved by good teamwork, which means, they get out of the way if they win initiative. If you go first you just hold your action until they move. These are simple things to overcome.
Tell me why wouldnt charging be possible in most situations. Notice I said "most".
well large bastard sword isn't the biggest damage die weapon that would be the butchering axe, the answer is a little less black and white then one would think, questions that need to be asked are, is mythic allowed if so vital strike comes in on top, question two how much size increase shenanigans are you going to be doing if the answer is a lot then vital strike comes out a head, then there's the question of are you willing to take 6 levels in a prestige class, if the answer is yes then vital strike is a no brainer as you will then be able to use vital strike with any attack option that is used as a standard action so things like cleave or other similar abilities
You don't need a prestige class to combine Vital Strike and Cleave.
Two-Handed Weapon Trick lets you do that, though it comes online late.
Vital Strike is for the times you cannot guarantee that all your strikes will hit.
Pounce does allow you to get a few more full attacks, but since you cannot guarantee all will hit, 1 strike at full BAB can sometimes be better than the full attack.
Your first iterative attack should hit reliably for both full and 3/4 BAB characters, the issue though is that the full BAB character your second iterative inches closer and closer as you level to the first iterative for a 3/4 BAB character. So Vital Strike is great for people like Warpriests, who can get the feats on a full-BAB schedule, but without full-BAB accuracy on iterative attacks but it's less attractive to fighters, rangers, barbarians, and the like who can hit pretty reliably with their second iterative (or even more attacks if you use TWF or similar).
Alternatively, the Vital Strike vs. Pounce question can be answered looking at the opportunity cost involved- literally any class can do vital strike, all it costs are feats; whereas most classes cannot easily access pounce. So if you happen to be playing a class that get easy, and largely unlimited access to pounce, why not go that way? The classes that have easy access to pounce are pretty much the barbarian, the avenger vigilante, a monk that doesn't use weapons, and anything with wild shape. Everybody else has to work at it. Pounce with a greatsword is hard to get; vital strike with a greatsword is really easy to get.
Im still not convinced that charging wouldn't be really situational
It might not be in your games, but I've seen it in real games. This isn't theorycrafting.
I really don't see how it isn't possible most of the time.
Like I said the only thing that stops a charge are lack of distance(only 10 feet needed), difficult terrain(solved by a cheap magic item), and your team mates getting in your way. The last is solved by good teamwork, which means, they get out...
I more or less agree.
But I would add that walls or other obstacles can stop a charge. The slippers won't help there.
Not to mention cannon fodder enemies can ruin your charges.
I more or less agree.
But I would add that walls or other obstacles can stop a charge. The slippers won't help there.
Not to mention cannon fodder enemies can ruin your charges.
I didnt think walls needed to be mentioned and you can pounce the minions.
I wasn't saying you get an automatic path to whoever you wanted no matter what.
I'm pointing out to the OP that pounce is better than charge, and there not too many times that it can be used. As for the wall it also stops vital strike, and so do those minions since he has to chew threw them to get to anyone that's behind them
This isnt directed at you Lemartes: For this to really be fair it should have been a barbarian using vital strike and pounce, or bloodragers using both. Using different classes would have just shifted credit to that class, not to vital strike or pounce.
Vital Strike might work better with, say, a reach weapon and a tripping build.
Best case scenario:
Vital striker goes first, hangs back and readies an action to attack.
Pouncer pounces. Vital striker hits him with the readied action (a vital strike), then trips him on the AoO. This prevents the pounce.
Vital striker's turn - he vital strikes the enemy again while he's prone and then retreats away to prevent a counterattack...
Of course, if you can get that to work, you don't really need Vital Strike...
Reach is its own third contender for this kind of competition.
Reach+lunge is practically a pseduo pounce- sure, you aren't as great at the initial charge, but the ability to full attack at 20' (10' reach+5' lunge+5' step) means that you can cover a lot of a fight once everything mashes together. You don't have to worry about charge lanes, and you still do fairly well even if things are rough terrain (15' reach without the 5' step).
Add in the ability to get AoOs (particularly with a fortuitous weapon) and reach users have their options can games to play. Lunge is helpful for this, since it allows you to full attack from far enough away so you can still attack first and retain a position for AoOs when enemies close in.
Yeah, we are not getting into an area control (trip stuff to mess with them and get AoOs, combat patrol for caster counters) vs. distance control (just being really good at getting the best area for full attacks, avoiding the doughnut problem where you can't use your reach weapon close up when large), which is its own set of arguments outside of the 'vital strike vs. pounce' question.
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I more or less agree.
But I would add that walls or other obstacles can stop a charge. The slippers won't help there.
Not to mention cannon fodder enemies can ruin your charges.
I didnt think walls needed to be mentioned and you can pounce the minions.
I wasn't saying you get an automatic path to whoever you wanted no matter what.
I'm pointing out to the OP that pounce is better than charge, and there not too many times that it can be used. As for the wall it also stops vital strike, and so do those minions since he has to chew threw them to get to anyone that's behind them
This isnt directed at you Lemartes: For this to really be fair it should have been a barbarian using vital strike and pounce, or bloodragers using both. Using different classes would have just shifted credit to that class, not to vital strike or pounce.
I think that there was a miss communication here as I was more or less agreeing with you. As for walls or other obstacles I meant that while it might stop a charge it might not stop someone from just walking around said wall and clocking the bad guy in the face. So you could still vital strike in that case. A minor point obvious point but I thought it needed to be said.
As for cannon fodder minions specifically, blocking a charge does not stop someone walking around and using vital strike. Pouncing those super weak one shotable minions is a waste of a pounce. Meat shields. ;)
I wasn't very clear in my post though.
Pounce is much much better than vital strike, I was just trying to say that vital strike is better some of the time and it's not that rare an event. Further a DM can greatly extend the life of a BBG with some one shot minions a few walls, hallways or whatnot and some good tactical movement without being too unfair to the barbarian pc.I mean at that level the BBG shouldn't be an idiot.
I guess I"m just thinking out loud. :)
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Why not full attack? That was my lame joke. Unless you're doing it in the surprise round?Oh it can cant it? Hello Sniper Build.Remember folks vital strike can also be used at range...
***Tumble weeds***
Hello...
Hello???
:(
I had completely forgotten about that. My sniper rogue build just found some new feats!