A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4HD of creatures. What happens if you cast the spell off a scroll only to find the creature has 5HD. I mean, the caster has no idea how many HD the enemy has usually. Is the scroll wasted or not? And can someone point out where this is in the rules (not just Sleep but other spells, what happens if a Disrupting Weapon Caster Level 9 scroll is used against a 10HD vampire? Is the scroll used up?) Thankyou.
I would say yes, since the scroll is used when you cast a spell, regardless of if the spell succeeds or not, in the same way the spell slot is used when you cast those spells and it fails for the same reason.
Val'bryn, I don't know why it wouldn't be used up, hence my question. I kind of want to double check here because I know my players will question it if the spell fails in the upcoming scenario.
They have a powerful scroll but it will only work against one of the monsters due to the HD roll. Of course they don't know which monster. I guess then it is a wild guessing game. If they use the scroll against the 9HD monster it works but if they use it against the 10HD monster it doesn't. But what happens if they meet the 10HD monster first and waste it? I mean, how on earth do adventurers know how many Hit Dice the monsters have? Of course they don't and they shouldn't know. It's a wild guessing game then and the loss of a really powerful scroll if it fails. If that is so, then so be it.
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You could allow knowledge checks of the appropriate type on the 2 monsters to 'realize one is too powerful for the effect' if you desire to help hedge their guess.
You could allow knowledge checks of the appropriate type on the 2 monsters to 'realize one is too powerful for the effect' if you desire to help hedge their guess.
Nice idea, but the monsters are real close in power at the climax of a big scenario, so it's really not obvious. And they're pretty weird monsters. It's not like one's a vampire and one's a ghoul. I am more concerned with the general rule. I guess there isn't one. So it is just total luck. The players just don't know if the spell will work or not.
If they can catch both of them in one casting, they are sure to hit the weaker one, and they'll at least get the saving throw.
Two separate encounters
Nice idea, but the monsters are real close in power at the climax of a big scenario, so it's really not obvious. And they're pretty weird monsters.
That doesn't mean a knowledge check won't work. If they can hit the DC, they learn at least one useful bit of information. That bit of information could be "too powerful for this spell to work".
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Ya, I see no reason why a question off of a knowledge check can't be "How many HD?". That information is about equivalent to knowing all of its defenses or special attacks. Plus, they won't know how much additional HP the creature has from Con or whatever stat it might use, plus feats, templates, etc.. So they won't necessarily know how many HP it has exactly.
btw I am adding +1 to the scroll is used up even if nothing is affected. It is just as if SR was not overcome or the creature saves. Disappointing for sure, but the way it works.
You can ask if the monster has less, equal or more hit dices than the party, but you can't ask how much exactly number of them, it's at least what was ruled on the tables I played.
That's purely a house rule.
The actual rules for knowledge checks are completely vague. There isn't even a rule saying you get to ask questions, for example.
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A simple rule could be:
Knowledge check --> can be afected or not.
In humanoids with class levels could tell things like "He never was afflicted by this spell in public" "in the last year he fall by it in a battle, but a misterioud stranger sold him an amulet to protect from that"
Edit: and the scroll is used, the spell is casted, like if you cast enlarge person to a non humanoid.
Wasted. Like a cure light wounds to a full hp target, i think.
Then asking for the number of HD is also completely optional, and as such GMs can completely close it. No houserule is better than the other in that case.
If the houserule antagonises the players by causing them to waste their valuable scroll due to denying them the knowledge they need no matter how good their knowledge skills, it's probably not a great one.
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I think a better summary of the responses to your follow-up question is, use your best judgment. You are the GM and, in a sense, the final arbiter of how things work. Just remember though that decisions you make can and should affect the rest of the campeign due to a preference toward consistency.
As a side note: You could just fudge the number on the scroll and say that it affects up to 10HD so that you don't have to worry about it feeling like a 'gotcha'.
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From the soul bind spell:
The focus for this spell is a black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every HD possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the binding is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or HD as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched.)
If you can research the hit dice of a creature for one purpose, theoretically you can do so for other purposes. And if it can be researched, such knowledge could already be known and covered by the relevant Knowledge skill.
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Scroll is wasted.
A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated.
The scroll was activated. Whether it works or not is irrelevant.
Its not that we need to show a rule stating that, its that you need to try to find a refund rule (which there isn't)
Scroll is wasted.
A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated.
The scroll was activated. Whether it works or not is irrelevant.
Its not that we need to show a rule stating that, its that you need to try to find a refund rule (which there isn't)
It's just as I thought. I was just checking. I might have missed a rule somewhere. So folks, it is pretty clear what the rules are. Me as DM will just deal with the situation as always. I could feasibly have them find maybe a lesser but useful scroll as backup so they are not too bummed out if it messes up.
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One of the easiest problems that rules heavy table-top games fall into is rules > fun. Unless it is organized play, (i.e. PFS) where the adherence to rules is paramount to the structure of the organized play, the rules exist only as guidelines to create a world and system where people can have fun being their own level of creative. Heck! I'm sure that plenty of the writers and creators of Pathfinder lose sleep over the painful adherence to the rules that must happen with PFS. Their only solace likely coming from the occasional good review on these boards. It would be a shame for the writers beautiful creations to be ruined because of a unnecessary adherence to a rule in a specific situation in a home game.