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The summoner was a special case. It wasn’t “fixed” as much as it was rebuilt using the new rules because the previous version was no longer valid. That is not the case with the other pregens. Again, remember that while pregens serve many functions, the primary one is simply to have an option for new players to grab, sit down, and play. They are not meant to be optimized DPR monsters. Also remember that many of the mechanical choices were made to follow the iconography of the character. In most cases, the artwork came first, followed by the stat blocks. That’s why Valero’s is a two-weapon fighter and Merisiel throws daggers. Many say these are not optimized choices, but that’s not how iconic are created. There is some responsibility on the part of the GM/organizer to explain to a new player the nature of the iconic, to focus on the game as a whole. If they enjoy it, they are encouraged to create their own character in whatever style fits their personality whether that be roll-play centric, role-play centric, or some balance between them.
But if that was the case, shouldn’t Harsk be carrying water balloons?
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The point is, ineffectiveness is in the eye of the beholder and not a universal measure. What someone calls lousy, someone else says adequate. Party make-up, scenario specifics, GM/player style, even the randomness of the dice can heavily impact someone's impression of the effectiveness of a character. Generally speaking, the pregens are adequate for what they were designed to accomplish. If a particular one is poor IN YOUR OPINION, then simply do not offer it to your players as an option. Pretty simply really. But, that is an individual decision/assessment not a universal one and does not mean that they need to be rebuilt to meet some preconceived level of effectiveness.
Starfinder Society Developer
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I'm not sure. I haven't seen him run through any scenarios, and i'm not sure how effective he'd be going against touch attacks. I have seen harsk played, and new players get frustrated at their inability to do anything with him.
And yet, I have probably my most fun tables playing Harsk. As with all things, YMMV.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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I don't know of any creatures that are CR relevant for level 1 characters that have spell resistance.There's the drow. If they existed, anyway, which they definitely don't.
Wait, where am I in the timeline again?
You want drow? There’s a drow appearance this Season!
Drow appear in one of the possible story arcs of #9-09, Beyond the Halflight Path!
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And yet, I have probably my most fun tables playing Harsk.
Again, proof that combat effectiveness is not the only metric. If people are theorycrafting whether a pregen is any good... well, evidence trumps theory.
I do agree with BNW, though, I wouldn't give Harsk to a beginner. Unless they really wanted to play a dwarf, or liked the crossbow, or had some other attachment to the character beyond +/-.
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I'm not sure. I haven't seen him run through any scenarios, and i'm not sure how effective he'd be going against touch attacks. I have seen harsk played, and new players get frustrated at their inability to do anything with him.And yet, I have probably my most fun tables playing Harsk. As with all things, YMMV.
What about harsk made the table fun?
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Again, proof that combat effectiveness is not the only metric.
No one is saying that, so I have to ask why you keep throwing that argument back at people any time combat effectiveness is brought up?
Me: I'm making a cake. I need flour
You: Why is flour your only ingredient?
I am sick and tired of you insulting and denigrating anyone as a bad role player any time someone acknowledges that mechanics are part of the game.
If people are theorycrafting whether a pregen is any good... well, evidence trumps theory.
And the evidence i have is that he frustrates the hell out of new players who spend an entire round to miss and another entire round to reload followed by another round to miss, followed by a round to hit only not get through DR, because he is terrible.
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And the evidence i have is that he frustrates the hell out of new players who spend an entire round to miss and another entire round to reload followed by another round to miss, followed by a round to hit only not get through DR, because he is terrible.
Then I have to ask. Why do you continue to allow players to use that pregen if you feel it is soo terrible? We have what, 40 pregens? Just don't have it available. Simple. For the rest of us that have no issue with it, let it go. I don't offer complicated builds like occult characters to new players. That doesn't mean others do the same. Either way, the result is the same.
This argument is no different than someone hates X song, or hates X TV show, hate sports, hates romcoms, etc. Some people do, some people don't. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it must be modified to fit your preference or eliminated entirely. Avoid it. Simple
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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And yet, I have probably my most fun tables playing Harsk.Again, proof that combat effectiveness is not the only metric. If people are theorycrafting whether a pregen is any good... well, evidence trumps theory.
Having someone who actually works for the company and should for all intents and purposes know the limitations and advantages of pretty much everything isn't proof. Also, I've had fun with really dumb builds before and well I'll be the first to admit that they are really dumb builds instead of digging down and defending them.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I remember well when lvl 7 Harsk saved the party from TPKing. Everyone was stuck in a bog geting slowly killed by the monster. But Harsk could just shoot it. The others all lacked ranged.
I remember that game. Actually he was the one to first close into melee and keep the monster busy while the rest of us tried to just even get there.
All that dwarven poison resistance served him pretty well. He got beat up a bit but survived multiple rounds of constriction better than the rest of us would have.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Yoon has been phenomenally effective every time I have seen her played. And I had a player who was playing her almost every game for a while. And Amari has single handedly (well, two-handedly technically) wrecked combats.
Harsk annoys me a little, but honestly taking Yoon and Amari as your benchmarks for lousy pregens...
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Developer
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Just having another player at the table can mean the difference between a failed or successful encounter. Having that guy go, "wait let the rogue check for traps", or "can we climb on these boxes so we will be out of reach of the ghouls?" doesn't require an optimized build. But you have far more creative solutions if given access to more outlier abilities than Track and Wild Empathy.
But I have seen Yoon played effectively as a level 4 character.
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Again, proof that combat effectiveness is not the only metric.No one is saying that,
Well, then what is your assertion based on? You've mentioned his lack of combat feats to improve his combat effectiveness with his crossbow, and his low to-hit modifier. What has anyone complained about that is not combat-related?
And the evidence i have is that he frustrates the hell out of new players who spend an entire round to miss and another entire round to reload followed by another round to miss, followed by a round to hit only not get through DR, because he is terrible.
... all of which is about combat effectiveness. For some people, this also equates to being about fun - but not for everyone, and you should accept that. Or are you suggesting that Thursty and I and everyone else weren't actually having fun with Harsk the "right" way?
Don't use Harsk. Complain about him. That's your right. Just don't be upset over perceived slights when all I'm doing is defending my point of view which you've been attacking.
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"HARSK!! is maddened by all of the hate against him, but HARSK!! does love certain folks like the Canadians who love HARSK! HARSK!! is fine with HARSK!!'s combat effectiveness, he is not a weeny little elf with his bow, He uses a stout crossbow, but isn't afraid to step into melee, when needed.
"Just remember, if you cut HARSK!!, do I not bleed? Yes, I do, but with my stout dwarven heritage HARSK!! will not bleed out before the combat is over."
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I don’t like technology in my fantasy so can we change the gunslinger into a ranged archer cause I don’t like it?
We all know two-weapon fighting is inferior to two-handed fighting so can we rebuild Valero’s cause I don’t like him?
Lini sucks cause large cats are better than small ones as animal companions so she needs to be rebuilt.
Amiri using a large bastard sword is not optimized so she sucks. Please rebuild her.
Blah blah blah
These arguments are just as dumb as those against Harsk and Yoon, etc. Just let it go. If you have a personal issue with a pregen just don’t use it. Paizo is not required to change the game just to fit your own personal likes and dislikes. There are like 40 pregens. I’m sure there are at least a few that you find tolerable. Focus on those and let the rest of us enjoy the others.
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what happens when a new player shows up and they wanna play an iconic role? and you say you can but it'll suck for what it is intended to do. I'd sigh and try something else out.
It sounds like an argument over fluff vs. crunch.
Why is it wrong to want a flavorful character that mechanically is good at what its intended for?
IMO Harsk doesnt fit this bill, he is intended as a character for range, but if he is shooting at an engaged enemy, he will rarely hit. In pfs where you are going to see Harsk, there is a good chance that enemy will be engaged by another PC so have fun with missing in combat.
why is it so wrong to want a functional character? yes an individual can have fun with a poorly made character but they can be useless, or even detrimental to a party. I'm not saying everyone needs to make a character who is capable of fight the tarrasque by themselves, but a character who can't do anything for the group other than be a target which in turn just means another person to drain resources for keeping in the game in one way or another is no fun. Being carried through an adventure is no fun and carrying people CAN (not always) be annoying depending on the person carried.
ok, at this point I went and looked Harsk up.
At 1st level he doesn't have Precise Shot - but as a (non-human) ranger he only has one feat at 1st level- so how would people suggest "fixing" this? How to get him the ability to "fire into melee"... other than to make him Human or a Fighter...
At 4th level he DOES have Precise Shot... so I'm confused again... why do people think he can't shot into melee?
At 7th he has both Precise and Improved Precise Shot... so again...
Wha...?
Is it because he isn't a human fighter with 3 feats at 1st level that people are running him down? or what?
Earlier someone was hitting on his selection of a Hvy Xbow and stating he could only fire every other round, yet in all his builds he has Rapid Reload, so he can load it as a Move action... so, it is beginning to look like the people "piling on" are maybe not reading/playing him...
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Every round. Every other round. He tops out at 1d10+3 damage either way if he's lucky and doesn't have to move to get a shot. (Note in my example it was fire reload fire fire, not fire reload fire reload fire) Okay, so he doesn't need to spend the ENTIRE round to reload. But 3 shots in a 4 round fight is what i usually see out of him. Those shots do not do much damage (he's doing basically the same damage at 7th as at first) , don't have the greatest to hit bonus and don't have any way of getting through DR. DR 5 will have him dealing minimal damage and dr 10 will just about shut him out completely. (ahah there we go. rapid reload came out with ultimate combat. Some harsks were harsked before then)_
He is simply not a viable combatant. Now, not every character has to be a viable combatant (Kyra isn't that much better a combatant) but as a ranger he doesn't bring much if anything else to the table
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He is simply not a viable combatant
Those of us who have seen him perform adequately would disagree. So as with many things in OP, expect table variation. After 10 years, I would not expect Paizo to suddenly decide to rebuilt an original iconic (unless something about the character became illegal like the case of the iconic summoner). Better to focus on what you can do within your purview, which is don't use that pregen.
Just like you* are sick and tired of us saying that these pregens are fine as is, we are sick and tired of your* complaints about them. The difference is you* can just chose not to use them. Our* use of them does not hurt you* in the least. And IF we* ever wind up at the same table, AND we* decide to use one of these pregens, simply express your dissatisfaction. We* may not agree, but we* are happy to play another one if the table feels it will be better for party success.
Now, maybe we can let this dead horse lie and move on to something more productive?!?
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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Some of us have already played him (and other reportedly bad pregens) numerous times and never/rarely felt we (1) failed in combat to the extent described, nor (2) failed to bring anything else to the table either. Not to mention the times the pregen was used by others and our tables, also performing adequately.
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I'm sorry, but what does Harsk bring to the table that contributes to most adventure scenarios?
As far as combat goes, he effectively contributes little to nothing as he only fires every other round for 1d10+3 damage at level 7.
But since we're not talking about only combat, let's look what he adds to non-combat situations. He can follow tracks pretty well and has a mediocre chance to succeed on Knowledge Nature or Geography. He does have a decent heal so he can stabilize anyone who goes down in combat or examine bodies. He also has a decent perception so he can help you search things. His social skills are all at a -1 so he won't be of any help there and his handle animal is low enough that it's not likely to be useful.
So what does that all leave us with? We have a character that can follow tracks, sometimes identify animals, occasionally know things in the mission briefing about geographic locations, find hidden things decently, if he gets lucky handle an animal, and do 1d10+3 damage in combat every other round.
I'm sorry, but this character just really doesn't contribute meaningfully in most situations
Contributor
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Just out of curiosity (since I'm not in a good place to look stuff up myself at the moment):
What methods are there, using only the Core Rulebook, to increase the rate of fire on a heavy crossbow?
I was under the impression that Rapid Reload was the only core option, and that pregens were built using only the CRB and their books of origin. So Harsk might not have a lot of options in this regard.
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Oh you're totally right about that Kalindlara. There actually is no way for him to shoot it faster using the CRB. That's exactly why it's silly that he uses a heavy crossbow and why he has trouble contributing in combat.
Now he could just use his axe, but he's been fully built around using the crossbow so it's even less likely to hit and does about the same average damage. Literally all of his feats except two (iron will and endurance) have gone towards that crossbow.
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Ah, so not only is he mechanically unsound, it's because he must be a human archer ranger to be viable at level 1. I guess he could then do a level 1 rebuild into a dwarf to become dwarvish in time for his fourth-level incarnation, then.
Look, folks: you can think what you want, but it's silly to say "X doesn't contribute to adventures" or "X isn't viable in combat" with any objective value. "I haven't done it, so it can't be done" is pretty poor reasoning when others HAVE done it.
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And Jurassic Pratt: I'll take Harsk into any scenario any day. I'll take a team of Harsks into a scenario. I might die, but we'll have a blast, and we'll succeed in the mission. PaizoCon 2018 soon enough?
(And yes, even Bonekeep, Thornkeep, the Emerald Spire, or any other combat-focused deathtrap, if that's what you need for us to disprove your point.)
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Ah, so not only is he mechanically unsound, it's because he must be a human archer ranger to be viable at level 1.
Has anyone made or even implied that argument? I guess I'll just leave the thread since apparently by your logic anyone who thinks Harsk isn't well built or viable is a dirty munchkin who only thinks archers are viable. Thanks for making it abundantly clear that no reasonable discussion can be had here.
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. . . I'll take Harsk into any scenario any day. I'll take a team of Harsks into a scenario. I might die, but we'll have a blast, and we'll succeed in the mission. PaizoCon 2018 soon enough?
(And yes, even Bonekeep, Thornkeep, the Emerald Spire, or any other combat-focused deathtrap, . . .)
I will totally GM (or play) Bonekeep with a team of Harsks at PaizoCon. If only to see six Biters running around raging at everything.
Signups are now open :)
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Ah, so not only is he mechanically unsound, it's because he must be a human archer ranger to be viable at level 1.Has anyone made or even implied that argument?
That's exactly why it's silly that he uses a heavy crossbow (...)
In pfs where you are going to see Harsk, there is a good chance that enemy will be engaged by another PC so have fun with missing in combat
Apparently the heavy crossbow isn't good enough, not having precise shot at level 1 isn't good enough. Only way to fix that is to be a human (for the bonus feat) archer (to use a bow instead of a crossbow). Seems more than implied to me.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Edit: I have to correct something. The Druid beats him in Perception and Handle Animal...edges slightly ahead of him is most of the "woodland" skills in fact. By a point or two. ... but maybe she isn't a good front liner either, and so will be labeled as a "lousy pregen"... but whatever.
Actually, Lini is an amazing front liner. Completely illegal and invalid build but an amazing front liner.
EDIT:Also, better at stealth, perception, and god only knows what else. In fact level 4 Lini can probably outdo level 7 Harsk. That's why he's such a painful pregen.
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Outside of being a bolt ace the crossbow is pretty much unusable as a main tactic for a martial.
Well, that's not true. I have a 9th level crossbow ranger who is based on vital strike chain of feats who is extremely useful and viable.
EDIT: The analogue is a vanara that's just finished book 5 of Reign of Winter and quite effective.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Outside of being a bolt ace the crossbow is pretty much unusable as a main tactic for a martial.
My grenadier alchemist did pretty well with an underwater crossbow and explosive missiles.
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To the people saying "Harsk isn't problematic for me, so there's nothing wrong with him" - I think you're not looking at the question from the right direction.
The #1 use of pregens is to introduce new players to the game. There are other important uses, but this is definitely the most important one.
A good introductory pregen needs to do a couple of things. It needs to have an interesting story/style, the rules need to be clear and so forth. But it also needs to feel like you're contributing to the party like a full or almost full member.
That doesn't require fullscale optimization. Amiri isn't fully optimized. Getting a proper-sized sword would make her better. But she's good enough as she is right now, she can make a new player feel awesome in low-level adventures.
As an experienced player it can be fun to play with a handicap. But when talking about whether a pregen is fit to purpose, that's not a good criterion. Is the pregen going to give most new players a good time? That's the question to ask. And to answer it in the affirmative, the pregen does need to make a nice contribution inside (and outside) combat even in the hands of a beginner. And I think that's quite hardk in the hands of Harsk.
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I believe Droogami is, in fact, male. /pedantry
...as the Pathfinder Society's most notable expert on druid-compatible fauna, shouldn't you be able to tell that just by looking at him? :p
As a druid i know how checking would go. It sa cat. Pet pet pur pur roll over rub my belly rub my belly CLAW CLAW BITE RAKE RAKE ... rub my belly.
