|
When playing recently, we took in Yoon, the Child Soldier pregen to get our table up to 4 players. Yoon is a Human Fire Kineticist, and at level one has the following feats: Spell Penetration and Toughness.
What in the world?
Spell Penetration is something that a Kineticist shouldn't need until 5 level, at the earliest. Similarly Toughness; yes it gives you an extra hit point per level (the equivalent of one point of burn), but again, burn isn't significant this early. Yoon is already capable of adsorbing 6 points of burn at first level, and can only get them once per round... if she can get off her ability that causes burn (Fan of Flame). As this requires multiple opponents in a 15' cone, she won't actually get that off very often.
Why was this pregen not given Point Blank & Precise Shot? That's missing a +1 to hit/damage in close range & -4 to hit any enemy in melee combat.
This is ridiculous!
|
|
She's quite functional. Yes the accuracy is lame, but you don't need your moves for anything so you're free to reposition and try to bypass cover and then you just have in combat, but you're targeting touch so it kinda balances out to normal AC.
Since she's functional it's unlikely to change, so if you don't like it pick a different pregen. I highly recommend Crowe.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
She's quite functional. Yes the accuracy is lame, but you don't need your moves for anything so you're free to reposition and try to bypass cover and then you just have in combat, but you're targeting touch so it kinda balances out to normal AC.
Since she's functional it's unlikely to change, so if you don't like it pick a different pregen. I highly recommend Crowe.
Saying Yoon is functional is like saying a Fighter is functional with only one arm, he can still swing his morningstar.
Point Blank is +1 to hit and damage _all the time_. Because PB is range 30', and that's all the range Yoon has until she gets Extended Range.
Worse, you are saying, 'just move and get a better shot'. As long as the enemy is in melee, the -4 applies, wherever Yoon may be. Getting a clear shot removes the _other_ -4, the one provided by soft cover (her party melee members). Giving up 20% of a chance to hit 90%-95% of the time is not 'accurate enough'. A Kineticist is a ranged striker. She gets her DPR not through boosts like Two-Handed Weapons or Power Attack; she gets her DPR via lower actual damage and higher accuracy. In short, higher throughput.
The point about Toughness boosting her hit points by 25%, and keeping her alive long enough to make levels is well taken. I wouldn't make that choice, but I can see it.
To the people who are saying, 'don't take in that pregen': you are missing the point. Why would anybody who understands the class set it up this way? Somebody at Paizo did this.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you actually read the description on Yoon's sheet for Spell Penetration, it states that her blasts are subject to spell resistance. So I'm guessing that's why they gave it to her, thinking it would be more useful than the +1 to hit and damage ('cause you can't damage if you can't get past SR).
|
|
She's quite functional. Yes the accuracy is lame, but you don't need your moves for anything so you're free to reposition and try to bypass cover and then you just have in combat, but you're targeting touch so it kinda balances out to normal AC.
Since she's functional it's unlikely to change, so if you don't like it pick a different pregen. I highly recommend Crowe.Saying Yoon is functional is like saying a Fighter is functional with only one arm, he can still swing his morningstar.
Point Blank is +1 to hit and damage _all the time_. Because PB is range 30', and that's all the range Yoon has until she gets Extended Range.
Worse, you are saying, 'just move and get a better shot'. As long as the enemy is in melee, the -4 applies, wherever Yoon may be. Getting a clear shot removes the _other_ -4, the one provided by soft cover (her party melee members). Giving up 20% of a chance to hit 90%-95% of the time is not 'accurate enough'. A Kineticist is a ranged striker. She gets her DPR not through boosts like Two-Handed Weapons or Power Attack; she gets her DPR via lower actual damage and higher accuracy. In short, higher throughput.
The point about Toughness boosting her hit points by 25%, and keeping her alive long enough to make levels is well taken. I wouldn't make that choice, but I can see it.
To the people who are saying, 'don't take in that pregen': you are missing the point. Why would anybody who understands the class set it up this way? Somebody at Paizo did this.
The class isn't meant to be highly optimized. Yes moving only removes cover that's what I said, and I also said since you're going against touch the other -4 is kinda negated by that. So comparatively on average you're just going against their normal AC.
Yes, an optimized kineticist would take those as their first two feats. But yoon's not. Toughness is to make sure she's not dropping early levels.
Also the way they build pregens is make the lv7 version and then work backwards to get to the start and this can lead to some strange build paths.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
at first level, if you don't like how the Pregen is built - just change it and call it a different name.
"Hi! I'm Notyoon! I'm just like my cousin Yoon, except I was smart enough to take Point Blank Shot instead of Spell Penetration!"
edit: wait, I just realized this was for a Judge controlled NPC. And they have to be un-modified... so never mind. But heck, judge NPCs shouldn't be better than the real PCs so... I don't see this as a problem.
|
If you actually read the description on Yoon's sheet for Spell Penetration, it states that her blasts are subject to spell resistance. So I'm guessing that's why they gave it to her, thinking it would be more useful than the +1 to hit and damage ('cause you can't damage if you can't get past SR).
I don't know of any creatures that are CR relevant for level 1 characters that have spell resistance.
|
|
at first level, if you don't like how the Pregen is built - just change it and call it a different name.
"Hi! I'm Notyoon! I'm just like my cousin Yoon, except I was smart enough to take Point Blank Shot instead of Spell Penetration!"
edit: wait, I just realized this was for a Judge controlled NPC. And they have to be un-modified... so never mind. But heck, judge NPCs shouldn't be better than the real PCs so... I don't see this as a problem.
Doesn't always work, lv1 pregens often break rule for PFS. Like yoon being small as a human. Can't duplicate that with your own character. Also you'd need to own the book, which would be a problem for first showers wanting to try out the fire kid. Or someone playing the class since they don't own the book.
|
|
If you actually read the description on Yoon's sheet for Spell Penetration, it states that her blasts are subject to spell resistance. So I'm guessing that's why they gave it to her, thinking it would be more useful than the +1 to hit and damage ('cause you can't damage if you can't get past SR).I don't know of any creatures that are CR relevant for level 1 characters that have spell resistance.
Doru Div... and I think that is it...
|
If you actually read the description on Yoon's sheet for Spell Penetration, it states that her blasts are subject to spell resistance. So I'm guessing that's why they gave it to her, thinking it would be more useful than the +1 to hit and damage ('cause you can't damage if you can't get past SR).I don't know of any creatures that are CR relevant for level 1 characters that have spell resistance.
Demon, Vermlek (SR 14) and Daemon, Lacridaemon (SR 14) are both CR3 so good for a BBE in Sub-Tier 1-2
I'm sure there are others but I don't have the time today...
edit... and all summoned monsters with the Fiendish or Celestial template (SR= CR+5)... as well as any monster that appears in a scenario that is Fiendish (Fiendish Fire-Beetles anyone?).
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Harsk isn't bad... he's just bad compared to the archer-ranger-with-large-wolf-companion-who-kills-everything stereotype of a ranger many people are used to. I will play Harsk as my pregen any day. (Well, any day that the party doesn't need me as Kyra instead.)
No. he is absolutely terrible. At his listed/obvious level of combat he is shooting at -8 for 1d10 damage every other round. He's out damaged by a core combat familiar.
Just because people mention power levels doesn't mean they expect an uber optimized whirl of death. There is a basic level of competency you need to meet to contribute effectively and harsk is well below it.
|
|
No. he is absolutely terrible. At his listed/obvious level of combat he is shooting at -8 for 1d10 damage every other round. He's out damaged by a core combat familiar.Just because people mention power levels doesn't mean they expect an uber optimized whirl of death. There is a basic level of competency you need to meet to contribute effectively and Harsk is well below it.
Yoon doesn't meet the basic level of competency either. Taking Point Blank and Precise Shot isn't 'highly optimized', it's the first assumption of any ranged character.
Somebody upthread said something to the effect that an NPC shouldn't outshine a PC. ???
1) Yoon was picked as the party needed someone to handle ranged combat; the ranger/gunslinger templates weren't available.
2) A powerfull ranger build with a 'death kitty' might outshine other PCs, but a fire blast of 1d6+1 damage at ranged touch doesn't outshine a 1st level fighter with big strength, a two handed weapon and Power Attack. What was desired was a competent ranged attacker. The competent part was lacking.
3) These NPCs are often passed out to casual players who are trying out the game. You want to give these guys inferior characters? You don't want to encourage them to play some more? "You are -4 to hit because the melee guys are doing their thing. There's a way around that, but your template character doesn't have it," is not a selling point.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yayyy, it’s been sooo long since we had a “bash the pregen” thread I was having withdraws. After all these years do we really think that pregens are gonna suddenly be rebuilt to be optimized murder hobos? They are what they are and for most of us, they serve their purpose just fine. Don’t like some of them? Then don’t use them. Create your own character, or choose a different pregen. I keep hearing that Crowe and Amiri are OP but no one is asking for them to be rebuilt so they don’t dominate scenarios. This is all just white noise.
|
|
Ok Egil - which Pre-Gen would be a better choice as "someone to handle ranged combat", at 1st level?
Amiri? shortbow +2 for 1d6 (a better weapon for her would be a Sling or Javelin)
Lem? sling +3 (1d3-1) with his singing he can get this up to +4 for 1d3
Kyra? sling +0 (1d4+2) (feats include Toughness by the way)
Lini? sling +2 (1d3-2)
Valeros? shortbow +3 (1d6) (again, a sling would at least do 1d4+3, and he has the feat toughness)
Sajan? Shruiken +2 (1d2+3) (not going to talk about feats here)
Sheelah? shortbow +1 for 1d6 (with a Javelin she would at least get her shield, and do 1d6+3)
Harsk? wait - you said he was unavailable (hvy xbow +4 for 1d10, with the feat Rapid Reload... so no point blank shot for him either)
Merisiel? Dagger +4 (1d4)... weapon focus for a feat...
Seoni? Dagger +2 (1d4) - but wait, she has acid splash so she would get a +2 ranged touch doing 1d3... (but ha! bad feats again - spell focus Evocation? what good is that at 1st level?)
Ezren? Lt Xbow +2 (1d8) ... he also has acid splash and spell focus evocation again... BUT WAIT! he also has Hand of the Apprentice! so he gets a +5 to hit with a ranged attack doing 1d6! We have a winner! Ezren! yeah! Looks like you should have taken the Wizard as "someone to handle ranged combat"...
|
|
Yoon doesn't meet the basic level of competency either. Taking Point Blank and Precise Shot isn't 'highly optimized', it's the first assumption of any ranged character.
No. he is absolutely terrible. At his listed/obvious level of combat he is shooting at -8 for 1d10 damage every other round. He's out damaged by a core combat familiar.Just because people mention power levels doesn't mean they expect an uber optimized whirl of death. There is a basic level of competency you need to meet to contribute effectively and Harsk is well below it.
It might be YOUR first assumption for any ranged character. But I've seen many player built characters, ray shooters and bombers (hey look both going against touch like yoon) that never get those feats. And I've seen archers not get precise shot feat until lv5.
If you run yoon through the DPR of the situations she's likely to be in you find out that she does okay, she meets the basic level of competency (now your basic level might not be the actual basic level by a higher benchmark and thus more things look bad but if so then your basic level is above that actual level needed to be worth helping and is too high). Because there are a number of times she'll have a clear shot on an enemy that's not in combat and have great accuracy, and then a number of times she has a clear shot and target is in melee where her accuracy is normal, and times when there's both and she's having difficulty but still better than a non-human archer that couldn't qualify for precise shot yet because of touch.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yoon doesn't meet the basic level of competency either. Taking Point Blank and Precise Shot isn't 'highly optimized', it's the first assumption of any ranged character.
No. he is absolutely terrible. At his listed/obvious level of combat he is shooting at -8 for 1d10 damage every other round. He's out damaged by a core combat familiar.Just because people mention power levels doesn't mean they expect an uber optimized whirl of death. There is a basic level of competency you need to meet to contribute effectively and Harsk is well below it.
It might be YOUR first assumption for any ranged character. But I've seen many player built characters, ray shooters and bombers (hey look both going against touch like yoon) that never get those feats. And I've seen archers not get precise shot feat until lv5.
If you run yoon through the DPR of the situations she's likely to be in you find out that she does okay, she meets the basic level of competency (now your basic level might not be the actual basic level by a higher benchmark and thus more things look bad but if so then your basic level is above that actual level needed to be worth helping and is too high). Because there are a number of times she'll have a clear shot on an enemy that's not in combat and have great accuracy, and then a number of times she has a clear shot and target is in melee where her accuracy is normal, and times when there's both and she's having difficulty but still better than a non-human archer that couldn't qualify for precise shot yet because of touch.
To add to this, Yoon's best-case scenario is actually to use fan of flames on several targets (particularly if you have to fight a swarm!), which won't benefit from either of those feats at all. At level 7, she adds eruption as a go-to, which also doesn't use those.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you actually read the description on Yoon's sheet for Spell Penetration, it states that her blasts are subject to spell resistance. So I'm guessing that's why they gave it to her, thinking it would be more useful than the +1 to hit and damage ('cause you can't damage if you can't get past SR).I don't know of any creatures that are CR relevant for level 1 characters that have spell resistance.
I've seen humans, beetles, goblins, goblin dogs, crows, centipedes, flies, ants, and I'm sure more with SR.
Edit:To answer the question of best ranged pregen it's Damiel. His best tactic at low levels is to hit AC 5 to do 5 damage in a burst.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Harsk isn't bad... he's just bad compared to the archer-ranger-with-large-wolf-companion-who-kills-everything stereotype of a ranger many people are used to. I will play Harsk as my pregen any day. (Well, any day that the party doesn't need me as Kyra instead.)
I totally agree! You don’t talk that way about my uncle! He tought me how to shoot the crossbow and told me stories when I was small.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This looks like a difference of opinions. or maybe play styles...
No.
While the game has a great deal of subjectivity and incomparable preferences there is a certain level of reality that kicks in with regards to characters effectiveness. The line between ineffective, good, and overpowered is both blurry and mobile but it is still there.
|
|
atleast Yoon isn't like Amiri or the Monk... the case of Amiri, no "Raging Vitality" and the Monk has a flat 13 Wisdom through all his levels. Monks should have more than 13 Wisdom...Amiri can't have Raging Vitality - that was introduced in the APG, and Amiri is built using only the Core Rulebook.
imo, some characters should be updated to the Unchained variants...heck, the summoner got a 'fixed' pregen.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The summoner was a special case. It wasn’t “fixed” as much as it was rebuilt using the new rules because the previous version was no longer valid. That is not the case with the other pregens. Again, remember that while pregens serve many functions, the primary one is simply to have an option for new players to grab, sit down, and play. They are not meant to be optimized DPR monsters. Also remember that many of the mechanical choices were made to follow the iconography of the character. In most cases, the artwork came first, followed by the stat blocks. That’s why Valero’s is a two-weapon fighter and Merisiel throws daggers. Many say these are not optimized choices, but that’s not how iconic are created. There is some responsibility on the part of the GM/organizer to explain to a new player the nature of the iconic, to focus on the game as a whole. If they enjoy it, they are encouraged to create their own character in whatever style fits their personality whether that be roll-play centric, role-play centric, or some balance between them.
The pregens as is serve their intended purpose. Some are more optimized than others. If you are an experienced player using the pregens to fill a special need like ghosting for a 3-man table, or because you do not have a PC applicable for the game, it is up to you or your table to decide upon an appropriate pregen. Just chose whichever one fits your needs. If you expecting it to be as “effective” in all circumstances as one of your own characters with access to the entire library of options, it’s probably not the character that needs to change but your expectations.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The iconography argument is bad because no one matches their artwork. My favorite is the person who supposedly has full plate on despite showing slightly less skin than the Oracle. Also, it goes without saying that having bikini armor statted out is definitely not the best way to introduce people to the game.
Also, it goes without saying ...
Usually that means that it needs to be said.
In any event, your opinion may not be universal - and in this case, it is not.
|
|
This looks like a difference of opinions. or maybe play styles...
No.
While the game has a great deal of subjectivity and incomparable preferences there is a certain level of reality that kicks in with regards to characters effectiveness. The line between ineffective, good, and overpowered is both blurry and mobile but it is still there.
I guess I just play in games where doing damage isn't the only metric of having fun. Or of mission success.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Have you ever been in a situation where a PC was built so poorly mechanically or played so ineptly that the rest of the table would have been better off without them because they either bumped the subtier or removed the 4-player adjustment? I hav and it's frustrating.
We can guide a player about their choices and help them learn, but the we can't do anything regarding how pregens are built. So the pregens should never be mechanically inadequate to the point where I think the table would be better off without them. I'm not entirely convinced I can say that about all the pregens though.
That being said, I'm not sure I agree with the criticism about Yoon not having point blank and precise. My ifrit gunslinger took rapid reload first, still doesn't have precise yet, and I've done just fine.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I guess I just play in games where doing damage isn't the only metric of having fun. Or of mission success.
The stormwind fallacy is a fallacy*, not a guide to making a better character or being a better gamer. Unless you and the entire rest of the party revel in complete mechanical ineptitude making a character that can't effectively contribute in combat adds nothing to the game, at all.
(technically a gamer specific version of the either or fallacy).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So then you agree that Loon should have Point Blank Shot and Percise Shot in order to be effective? And is a "Lousy Pregen" (to quote the thread title) without those two feats?
I'm not sure. I haven't seen him run through any scenarios, and i'm not sure how effective he'd be going against touch attacks. I have seen harsk played, and new players get frustrated at their inability to do anything with him.