Rules question for Ironskin spell


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ran into this little issue today during our weekly play.

Warpriest (a dwarf) can use any spell from the Cleric Spell list, and had chosen Ironskin to use.

GM claims that he can't use it because it is a "Duergar" race specific spell.

I looked up the spell in the Monster Codex which is the only place I could find it listed. It says,

`````Duergar Spells
The following spells are known and were likely developed by duergar spellcasters.``````

``````IRONSKIN
School transmutation [earth]; Level alchemist 2, antipaladin 2, bloodrager 2, cleric 2, druid 2, paladin 2, ranger 2, witch 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF/M (a pinch of forge soot)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D; see text)
Your skin hardens and takes on the color and texture of rough iron. You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your existing natural armor bonus (if you do not have a natural armor bonus, you are considered to have an effective natural armor bonus of +0). This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every 4 caster levels above 4th, to a maximum of +7 at 15th level.
While you're under the effects of this spell, if an opponent confirms a critical hit or sneak attack against you with a physical weapon (not a spell or magical effect), you can dismiss this spell to negate the critical hit or sneak attack and treat it is as a normal hit. Dismissing the spell in this way is not an action, but you must be conscious and aware of the attack to do so.````````

What do you guys think? I have no dog in this fight but think the Warpriest should be able to use it. Anyone else ran into this issue before? It is pretty open ended in my opinion.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The GM is right for 2 reasons
1) The GM is right.
2) The RAW is that racial spells which this is one of are only available to characters of that race unless the GM chooses to allow it. So by default the spell is banned for none duegar without special GM permission.

Also appealing to random people on the internet to overule a GM call is really bad form and would piss me off a lot if I was the GM.


JohnHawkins wrote:

The GM is right for 2 reasons

1) The GM is right.
2) The RAW is that racial spells which this is one of are only available to characters of that race unless the GM chooses to allow it. So by default the spell is banned for none duegar without special GM permission.

Also appealing to random people on the internet to overule a GM call is really bad form and would piss me off a lot if I was the GM.

He might not be trying to overrule his GM but trying to get his own grasp as to how to rule something. I know that there have been times where my GM has ruled a certain way and I've come to the forums to see if that was a common way to rule it or more niche. Not to fight the GM but for when I GM it


1 is such a silly circular rule. No one is coming to the board just to hear the GM is always right. I wish people would stop saying it when people have specific questions.

Nothing in the spell description on pfsrd says duergar only: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ironskin/

I am usually pretty liberal about race-specific spells, but this doesn't even list it, such as spells like http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge which specifically list half-elf as a requirement.

There is a difference between a race developing a spell and it being specific to a race.


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It's from the Monster Codex and it is in the section about duergar. That's enough for me to disallow it as GM.


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
1 is such a silly circular rule. No one is coming to the board just to hear the GM is always right. I wish people would stop saying it when people have specific questions.

It is technically true, and specifically mentioned in the rules. It is a perfectly valid if unhelpful answer.

Quote:

Nothing in the spell description on pfsrd says duergar only: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ironskin/

I am usually pretty liberal about race-specific spells, but this doesn't even list it, such as spells like http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge which specifically list half-elf as a requirement.

There is a difference between a race developing a spell and it being specific to a race.

d20PFSRD is ultimately a poor place to use. They have been known to add their own interpretation, or leave out things. Things such as:

Quote:
When the duergar made deals with their dark god to turn the tide against their hated enemies, they were fundamentally changed, both physically and psychologically. After a period of adjustment to their new circumstances, their artisans developed innovations to better cope with their harsh environment, and their spellcasters mastered magical secrets gifted to them by the dark powers that granted them succor during the race's time of direst need.

Now, admittedly it never says the the spells are limited to duergar. But being granted to the race by a dark power (and not discovered and developed normally like other spells though later it does say that was likely) is grounds enough to limit the availability to non-duergar.


It doesn't say it is restrict to Duergar, like pretty much any other spell limited to a race.

The GM can do whatever they want, textual pretense or no. I just think it's a pretty dumb way to answer the question.

When I GM I believe in a fully collaborative process where we discuss rulings and figure out ambiguous situations together. Obviously, I don't permit a 2 hour argument at the table. But I am only right by GM fiat if I am houseruling something.

I don't see an actual textual reason to restrict the spell to Duergar, absent that any in game restriction is basically a house rule (unless someone has text that suggests Ironskin is actually restricted according to the rules).

Grand Lodge

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Here's the rules text regarding racial spells:

ARG on Racial Spells wrote:
The spells in this section are common to spellcasting members of the race. Sometime they only target members of that race, but often they are just the race's well guarded secrets; members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission

So the GM is absolutely in the right to make that call since racial spells are specifically called out as only being able to be learned by other races with GM permission.


as written.... unless you cansay your character found a renegade duergar caster with that spell or a black market item....

but all that is special permission.

gm is right.

though you can ask for permission though.....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As pretty much everyone else has said, the GM is well within his rights to take that spell of the table, if for no other reason than it's better than a 2nd level spell should be. I've only used that spell in one game, and that was in Wrath of the Righteous, where everything but the PCs was mythic until chapter 6, and we needed every edge we could get.


I appreciate the comments! I was honestly just curious for my own purposes, as the Warpriest having that spell didn't affect me one way or another.

It's nice to see so many opinions on things. I'll definitely be posting up more questions and different things now.


My cleric has been using Ironskin on our barbarian in Strange Aeons for approximately 2 levels, now at level 10. I found it on the online cleric spell list which doesn’t mention the spell’s origin.
There is no reason my human cleric of Erastil should be have access to a Duergar spell so I will start using Bear’s Endurance on him instead. Not as good but more appropriate.


Path>Starfinder wrote:

My cleric has been using Ironskin on our barbarian in Strange Aeons for approximately 2 levels, now at level 10. I found it on the online cleric spell list which doesn’t mention the spell’s origin.

There is no reason my human cleric of Erastil should be have access to a Duergar spell so I will start using Bear’s Endurance on him instead. Not as good but more appropriate.

Ironskin is a self only spell, so the cleric can't be putting it on anyone but themselves.

So now you have two reasons not to use it, one it can't be used as you've been using it, and two it's duergar.


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I'd allow it.
Even though it's in the duergar section of Monster Codex, it doesn't have the (duergar) tag that racially restricted spells have, whether it is on the d20pfsrd, the archives of nethys, or paizo's own website. Furthermore, the prd says about the spells in that section that they are "known and likely developed by duergar spellcasters", but due to the phrasing it certainly doesn't seem exclusive or conclusive that this is a spell exclusively used by duergar.


spell research your own version of the spell then, and tweak it to not be the same

Liberty's Edge

I'd allow it personally, but the GM's call is also legitimate. Saying that you at least need to have encountered the Duergar and learned of the magic's existence from them before you can use it is totally reasonable.

For Strange Aeons, knowing that your character has amnesia, I'd ask the GM if it's okay to use the spell. Maybe your character has met Duergar.

From a game balance perspective, it's a perfectly fine spell. Yes, it gives a high AC bonus, but only 2 higher than Barkskin and with 1/10 the duration. That's a fairly balanced tradeoff. It's really nice for Clerics pretty much solely because they lack most other AC enhancers, not because it's an unbalancingly good one.

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