A question about "Archetype Stacking and Altering"

[likaqiu]

In the FAQ which is about "Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?" said that.

In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

And here an acquaintance says that some Magus's Archetype juet wrote "gains access to the following magus arcana" so it means that it doesn't change one subfeature. But I and some one else have different opinion. We thought that it's still change one subfeature just like the explame was wrote in this FAQ. And we still found that the designer Mark Seifter had replied that.

1) If you have a class feature that is broken into separate features with their names in italics (like bardic performance) or that are gained at multiple levels on the character chart (like weapon training), you can alter those child features separately.
2) Either way, if you mess with a parent feature (such as changing the rounds of bardic performance, or changing the ability score you use for deeds), no stacking.
3) Changing which class skills you have is messing with a parent feature. So is changing which bonus feats are on your list. If you do one of those, you can't take another archetype that also does anything with class skills or bonus feats, respectively. For instance, a fighter archetype that adds Iron Will to the list of fighter bonus feats would not stack with one that removed the 2nd level bonus feat. But the aforementioned "remove the 2nd level bonus feat" archetype would stack with one that removes the 4th level bonus feat.

But in his opinion, these things have not mention Magus Arcana so that couldn't proof that what he said is wrong.
Can somebody tell me which one make a misunderstand this FAQ?

[SorrySleeping]

I think it would help if you let us know what two Magus archetypes the other player is trying to get.

Technically, even adding to the list of Magus Arcana without other things is changing Magus Arcana, so archetypes wouldn't stack because of that. However, that is also stupid if that is the only thing blocking him from taking two different archetypes and I think most GMs would rule it would be fine.

[likaqiu]

SorrySleeping wrote:

I think it would help if you let us know what two Magus archetypes the other player is trying to get.

Technically, even adding to the list of Magus Arcana without other things is changing Magus Arcana, so archetypes wouldn't stack because of that. However, that is also stupid if that is the only thing blocking him from taking two different archetypes and I think most GMs would rule it would be fine.

Like Hexcrafter & Spellblade,Bladebound & Hexcrafter or so on.

Em....I made a mistake. The archetypes we were arguing about like Bladebound which had wrote "This ability replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level" ,so wo thought that is had changed Magus Arcana so it would be gray to choose another archetype which can add to the list of Magus Arcana. Sorry I didn't express that. My apologize.

[Agent Eclipse]

Bladebound and Hexcrafter stack fine. Bladebound specifies that it takes the place of the 3rd level Arcana and changes Arcane Pool. Hexcrafter replaces Spell Recall and gains access to other Arcana. They gain access to more options but it does not modify the Magus Arcana feature. When new Arcana, Feats, etc come out in books it doesn't modify the feature just gives it more options.

[Java Man]

Adding options which are not available outside of the archetype is altering the the option list.

[Agent Eclipse]

See Qingong Monk.

Also addition of options are under "Hex Arcana" and do not call out a modification or replacement to Magus Arcana.

[Chess Pwn]

They don't stack. Hexcrafter adds options to arcana thus modifying all of magus arcana and bladebound removes an arcana.
They don't stack. Archetypes don't need explicit text saying "this alters or replaces" for it to alter something.

[Chess Pwn]

Agent Eclipse wrote:

See Qingong Monk.

Also addition of options are under "Hex Arcana" and do not call out a modification or replacement to Magus Arcana.

Qingong monk has different wording, it says you MAY trade out a feature you have for something else, thus it stacks with everything since if you don't have it you just can't trade it out.

The FAQ clearly says that adding a new option to a list via archetype modifies that ability.
"This even applies for something as small as ... adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select,"
aka adding a hex to the list of magus arcana you can select. Something this small stops archetype stacking.

[Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller]

In Pathfinder, if you have a class feature that lets you choose between a, b, and c, it is treated as a grave difference whether you "may replace the class feature with option z", or whether you just add z as an option to choose for the class feature.

Because, while formal logic says "[a or b or c] or [z]" is the same as "[a or b or c or z]", Pathfinder... doesn't.

It makes no sense and is ridiculously arbitrary in my eyes, but it's raw RAW.

[DeathlessOne]

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:

In Pathfinder, if you have a class feature that lets you choose between a, b, and c, it is treated as a grave difference whether you "may replace the class feature with option z", or whether you just add z as an option to choose for the class feature.

Because, while formal logic says "[a or b or c] or [z]" is the same as "[a or b or c or z]", Pathfinder... doesn't.

It makes no sense and is ridiculously arbitrary in my eyes, but it's raw RAW.

And this is exactly why I allow archetype stacking in home games, that makes sense. Oh, you traded away survival for knowledge nature and the only issue between that one and this one is that it also adds knowledge religion, without removing something else? Nah, go ahead. Should be fine.

Or, this archetypes gives you more options to pick from your rogue talents, and this one limits the number of rogue talents you can pick to 1/2 progression? Its fine, stack away.

[James Risner]

They don’t stack and Qingong is a special case not applicable to any other archetype.

[likaqiu]

Okay.....so it could not stack? Em....so I have to find a way to convince him of this even the FAQ haven't wrote Magus Arcana? God help me.

[Yuri Sarreth]

An argument could be made that the hexcrafter does not have magus arcana as it is replaced by hex arcana. The archetype description calls it hex arcana and states you can select from this list of things at the determined levels.

[DeathlessOne]

Yuri Sarreth wrote:

An argument could be made that the hexcrafter does not have magus arcana as it is replaced by hex arcana. The archetype description calls it hex arcana and states you can select from this list of things at the determined levels.

you could make that argument, but Hex arcana doesn't replace anything. It doesn't modify or replace Magus Arcana because it doesn't have that text in the ability description. Hex Arcana is an additional ability they gain without replacing anything, it just lets them select witch hexes in place of magus Ariana's.

[Gisher]

Yuri Sarreth wrote:

An argument could be made that the hexcrafter does not have magus arcana as it is replaced by hex arcana. The archetype description calls it hex arcana and states you can select from this list of things at the determined levels.

Hex Arcana doesn't replace Magus Arcana. Per the FAQ it does alter Magus Arcana by adding options to the list of Magus Arcana.