I want to know if the two handed fighter archetype is worth it now that advanced armor training is an option, assuming I'm allowed to use advanced weapon training with the two handed weapon training.
Is this character multiclassed barbarian?
no it's not
In that case, skip the archetype and just multiclass a few levels of barbarian to front-load big bonuses. (The will save bump while raging won't hurt either.)
1. barb1 (any archetype), Extra Rage and/or Raging Vitality
2. fighter1 (combat feat: Power Attack)
3. barb2 (rage power), general feat
not looking for a multiclass, thanks though
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If you aren't stacking up dex on the character I'd keep the armor training. Frankly I think the ability to gain Invulnerable rager levels of DR/- once you can afford adamantine armor beats the Two hander archetype easily.
not looking for a multiclass, thanks though
Why not? It's a martial build, not a caster.
Besides, taking an archetype is just multiclassing-Lite. A mutation warrior is weirder than any "normal" fighter/barbarian.
Vital strike is a trap, avoid it like the plague.
And I would say that multiclasser barbarian is probably a bad call as it delays armor training and weapon training, easily the two most versatile options of any tier 5 class (honestly I think both of those are arguments for qualifying the fighter as a tier 4).
I've read the two handed fighter and honestly the +1-+5 damage it affords is NOT worth losing advanced armor training.
Advanced armor training allows you to craft armor, get Dr and a slew of other potential bonuses, keep it.
The fighter has the coolest archetypes but the base class has become so versatile with feat and feature support that any archetype is a downgrade on the core chassis.
Basically it comes down to 1 thing.
Are you going to be able to one shot most enemies with your two handed fighter?
By one shot I mean in a round of attacks.
If you can hit with everything in a full-attack, most high-powered martial concepts will drop a non-boss in one round. Therefore, hitting is job #1, and damage is #2.
A non-barbarian fighter is unlikely to exceed 20-22 strength until well north of 7th level, meaning that his Overhand Chop is netting him +2 or +3 damage over normal 1.5xStr. -- That is much weaker than receiving +2/+2 att/dmg right at 1st level from rage.
If the answer is yes, don't worry about armour training. You'll be in heavy armour with a strong a.c. for the few that survive.
If you're worried about AC, there are at least three ways to rage for dexterity (barbarian:urban, bloodrager:urban, barbarian:savage-technologist). Dip those and then go core fighter, and you'll be almost as difficult to hit with your two-hander as the shield guys.
Vital strike is a trap, avoid it like the plague.
Weapon Specialization *is* the plague. (Whenever I see that in a build that lacks Combat Reflexes, I know I'm staring at something that is probably forfeiting one or more entire attacks per round to chase tiny morsels of additional damage.) If your Enlarged barbarian gets +2d8 from Vital Strike with his normally-d10 polearm, the WS guy has to hit five times to get more damage out of his feat. Next turn, there are no nearby enemies, and the barb pulls out a bow and Vital-shoots a ranged target for an extra d8 while the guy with WS in a melee weapon fumes.
What armor training options are you considering? Armor Specialization is the best option, but I think it's still banned in PFS for arbitrary reasons. Armored Juggernaut ends up being better than a barbarian's DR eventually with the right gear and feats.
I would recommend giving us a little more info on what you actually want from this character. If you're just looking for damage, then VMC barbarian tacked onto a full fighter build can give you the best of both.
Difficult to hit can be handled by Advanced Armor Training as well, without having to dip out, and has the benefit of mixing it up between higher AC and DR.
I don't like barbarians flavour. What I specifically mean, now that I've had a day to look over all the options, is specifically only the steel headbutt. Does a two handed fighter ever catch up to a regular fighter who can take advanced weapon training as a feat at lvl 3 and get steel headbutt.
And to be clear, vmc or regular multi class either way barbarian is another class, and I'm talking about fighter. If you're going to suggest barbarian you might as well suggest i go full conjuration wizard.
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Catch up how? Offensive power? probably not. All around usefulness and survivability? Yes, absolutely.
Basically it comes down to 1 thing.
Are you going to be able to one shot most enemies with your two handed fighter?
By one shot I mean in a round of attacks.If you can hit with everything in a full-attack, most high-powered martial concepts will drop a non-boss in one round. Therefore, hitting is job #1, and damage is #2.
A non-barbarian fighter is unlikely to exceed 20-22 strength until well north of 7th level, meaning that his Overhand Chop is netting him +2 or +3 damage over normal 1.5xStr. -- That is much weaker than receiving +2/+2 att/dmg right at 1st level from rage.
If the answer is yes, don't worry about armour training. You'll be in heavy armour with a strong a.c. for the few that survive.If you're worried about AC, there are at least three ways to rage for dexterity (barbarian:urban, bloodrager:urban, barbarian:savage-technologist). Dip those and then go core fighter, and you'll be almost as difficult to hit with your two-hander as the shield guys.
Vital strike is a trap, avoid it like the plague.Weapon Specialization *is* the plague. (Whenever I see that in a build that lacks Combat Reflexes, I know I'm staring at something that is probably forfeiting one or more entire attacks per round to chase tiny morsels of additional damage.) If your Enlarged barbarian gets +2d8 from Vital Strike with his normally-d10 polearm, the WS guy has to hit five times to get more damage out of his feat. Next turn, there are no nearby enemies, and the barb pulls out a bow and Vital-shoots a ranged target for an extra d8 while the guy with WS in a melee weapon fumes.
Ok i'm going to take the time to go into an elaborate answer on that. Do keep in mind that arguing about the efficiency of systems is both my hobby and my job, so I'm having a blast! I am in no way trying to put you down and I do feel like you've provided valuable input.
However I disagree.
To properly compare things, we have to set some things.
Vital strike is a feat open to all.
Weapon specialisation is a feat open to fighters only, and is very synergetic with their weapon training ability.
They both stack, so it's not an either/or thing.
Vs a baseline 2h combatant(like a synergist) with no inherent damage gimmick (Damage gimmick is a unique class feature to damage classes that improve their baseline damage: Ex: sneak attack, flurry of blows, weapon training, rage, favored ennemy, smite etc.) a Pure Fighter at level 5 will have +2 to hit +3 to damage at all times. A barbarian 1 Fighter 4 is at his sweet spot with +3 to Hit and +5 to damage (assuming they both took weap foc and weap spec) while raging, although he doesn't have that many rounds of it and it does hurt is AC.
However, this advantage stops as soon as you reach around level 9. At this level, several things happen:
1- You have enough money for duelist's gloves, taking your weapon training to +4.
2- You have GWF
3- You have enough feats that your base gimmick is taken care of (Combat reflexes + Power attack for 2handers, Combat expertise + greater trip etc...) so you have enough feats to dump on a massive amount of weapon training
At that level, you can have a weapon training bonus of +4, a bravery bonus of +3 (with a cheap item), and an advanced armor bonus of +2 and in total can give the following bonuses:
+4 to Initiative
+4 Reflex Saves
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses (also level dependent)
+2 to AC via armor expert (also level dependent)
+3 Shield bonus to AC (assumin a +2 weapon, but see bellow)
and finally
+4 FLOATABLE NO LIMITS ASSIGNABLE AS A SWIFT ACTION ENHANCEMENT BONUSES ON YOUR FREAKING WEAPON!!!! Via weapon spirit. This is the clencher right here.
While even a 1 level dip in barbarian isn't that much of a setback, Delaying the spikes these bonuses will give (1 level later for bravery, 1 level later for weapon training, 1 level later for armor expert, 1 level later for greater weapon specialisation) greatly inhibits the strenght of your build at the present time. There may be 1 or two dead levels where you will not notice it as much, but it will always be there. All of that for the ability to gain slightly more damage and hit, which you don't legit need as you're already hitting hard enough to decapitate everything around you.
I would much rather play straight fighter and figure out with my group's casters if someone can cast the rage spell or vengeful outrage spell on me.
As for vital strike.
Respectfully, it's a trap. The opportunity cost here isn't vs weapon specialisation it's vs all other feats that are taken to deal for when you have to move before attacking.
Of those, here are a few:
-Quick draw (for throwing weapons of the same group as your main weapon)
-Spirited charge (Get a horse, move action to get the lance, you already have polearms as a group, charge, win)
-Nature Soul (Prereq for an animal companion feat, if full attacks bothered me this much, i would much rather sink 3 feats in an AC and 1 feat in combat reflexes than get vital strike, an animal companion with bullette rush and greater overun will make sure you always get off 3-4 attacks a round if you have to move)
Or items, like the quickrunner's shirt.
So it's not that vital striking isn't a decent option, it's that compared to either overspecialising your build (getting moar feats on advanced weapon training) or diversifying your build (getting options out of it like quick draw or spirited charge or an AC) it's just not as good.
Even if I had all other feats, I wouldn't take it. I'd take great fortitude, toughness, dodge or iron will much before taking vital strike because those feats are guaranteed to be relevant a majority of the time. Vital strike isn't.
If it were a baseline option for when you reached +6 BAB then i'd consider using it now and then...but i wouldn't pay for it.
Vital strike universally requires weapon restrictions and character planning.
Are you using a Greatsword? Longsword with plans to enter heritor knight PRC? A large heavy or double crossbow? Then vital strike is probably not for you.
Those weapons have options or attributes that turn vital strike into a useable thing. Outside of them...probably not.
Is sash of the war champion the bravery increasing item you're talking about?
*** omitted for space ***
Thank you for this in-depth analysis.
Vital strike universally requires weapon restrictions and character planning.
How do you figure that? Vital Strike works with every weapon in the game, and all it requires is BAB6. You don't even have to be proficient. The only "planning" needed is that it occupies a feat-slot, and you have choices.
If you are a martial who is routinely Enlarged, you will almost always pull down more additional damage from Vital Strike than you will from Weapon Specialization or other +2/per-pop type feat.
As for vital strike. Respectfully, it's a trap. The opportunity cost here isn't vs weapon specialisation it's vs all other feats that are taken to deal for when you have to move before attacking. Of those, here are a few:
-Quick draw (for throwing weapons of the same group as your main weapon)-Spirited charge (Get a horse, move action to get the lance, you already have polearms as a group, charge, win)
-Nature Soul (Prereq for an animal companion feat, if full attacks bothered me this much, i would much rather sink 3 feats in an AC and 1 feat in combat reflexes than get vital strike, an animal companion with bullette rush and greater overun will make sure you always get off 3-4 attacks a round if you have to move)
* Quick Draw thrown weapons: Throwing has a crappy ranged increment and requires investment in Returning weapons, or a lot of "dumb iron" tossed and possibly lost. But Quick Draw is a great feat, and we may have it anyway.
* Spirited Charge: Three-feat Mounted Combat capstone. Yes, if you're a cavalier poking things with a d6 or d8 lance, you probably do not have room in your build for Vital Strike, particularly when Wheeling Charge, Indomitable Mount, and so many others are clamoring for attention.
* Animals, generally: "Get that thing out to the stables!" (I.e., kiss goodbye half of your encounters.)
-- Vital Strike: you can use it any way, any time. Even if all you're doing is heaving a chair. Great feat for barbarian mutts, particularly those who can suck down an Enlarge potion as a move-action.
I want to know if the two handed fighter archetype is worth it now that advanced armor training is an option, assuming I'm allowed to use advanced weapon training with the two handed weapon training.
-The 2 handed archetype is good for dealing damage but personally I like the flexibility granted by vanilla fighter with advanced armor training options. Extra AC and DR/- up to 11 are quite great, besides extra skills and other nifty options and more mobility. People here like to reason like your character only goes against a single opponent at time always cuts him to ribbons and moves to the next in line. Actual games don't work that way unless the DM is letting you do it which is far from the norm, thankfully. I've seen barbarians dismembered after killing their first opponent precisely because their show of might left them open to retaliation from the remaining enemies and they were ill equipped to deal with being focused. So good defenses are always a good idea.
-If you want a fighter archetype the one I'd consider getting rid of AAT for is mutation warrior. At 3rd lvl you get alchemical bonuses, and along the way you also gain stuff like flight and extra healing (besides more powerful stat bonuses of course).
-Vital strike can be good (because you can move and use it) IF you are willing to focus on it entirely. Which means large weapon (bastard sword or Dwarven Waraxe are the easiest choices), impact enchantment, ways to enlarge yourself, a plethora of feats and worship of Gorum. If you do that Vital Strike becomes viable although still not GREAT.
Edit: I've said this before and I'll say this again: Vital Strike really should be a single scaling feat instead of 3 different ones...
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+4 FLOATABLE NO LIMITS ASSIGNABLE AS A SWIFT ACTION ENHANCEMENT BONUSES ON YOUR FREAKING WEAPON!!!! Via weapon spirit. This is the clencher right here.
It's a standard action to do this. It's a Su with no specified time thus goes to the default of standard for SU activation.
Luckily both fighter vanilla and any fighter archetype has access to vital strike.
Is sash of the war champion the bravery increasing item you're talking about?
Indeed it is.
+4 FLOATABLE NO LIMITS ASSIGNABLE AS A SWIFT ACTION ENHANCEMENT BONUSES ON YOUR FREAKING WEAPON!!!! Via weapon spirit. This is the clencher right here.It's a standard action to do this. It's a Su with no specified time thus goes to the default of standard for SU activation.
My bad I was under the assumption it was a swift.
Still a killer option but more within acceptable limits.
+4 FLOATABLE NO LIMITS ASSIGNABLE AS A SWIFT ACTION ENHANCEMENT BONUSES ON YOUR FREAKING WEAPON!!!! Via weapon spirit. This is the clencher right here.It's a standard action to do this. It's a Su with no specified time thus goes to the default of standard for SU activation.
Is there a "quicken SU" monster feat or something like that, a way to make it swift?
Vs a baseline 2h combatant(like a synergist) with no inherent damage gimmick (Damage gimmick is a unique class feature to damage classes that improve their baseline damage: Ex: sneak attack, flurry of blows, weapon training, rage, favored ennemy, smite etc.) a Pure Fighter at level 5 will have +2 to hit +3 to damage at all times. A barbarian 1 Fighter 4 is at his sweet spot with +3 to Hit and +5 to damage (assuming they both took weap foc and weap spec) while raging, although he doesn't have that many rounds of it and it does hurt is AC.
However, this advantage stops as soon as you reach around level 9. At this level, several things happen:
1- You have enough money for duelist's gloves, taking your weapon training to +4.
2- You have GWF
3- You have enough feats that your base gimmick is taken care of (Combat reflexes + Power attack for 2handers, Combat expertise + greater trip etc...) so you have enough feats to dump on a massive amount of weapon trainingAt that level, you can have a weapon training bonus of +4, a bravery bonus of +3 (with a cheap item), and an advanced armor bonus of +2 and in total can give the following bonuses:
+4 to Initiative
+4 Reflex Saves
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses (also level dependent)
+2 to AC via armor expert (also level dependent)
+3 Shield bonus to AC (assumin a +2 weapon, but see bellow)and finally
+4 FLOATABLE NO LIMITS ASSIGNABLE AS A SWIFT ACTION ENHANCEMENT BONUSES ON YOUR FREAKING WEAPON!!!! Via weapon spirit. This is the clencher right here.
I think you're doing a little unfair comparison here.
First off, it seems you have far to many AWT going on, you seem to have Defensive Weapon Training, Weapon Spirit, Armed Bravery, Fighter’s Reflexes, and Trained Initiative. That's 5 AWT out of the 2 you'd be able to have at lv9.Now onto the actual characters, a lv1 barb with lv8 fighter vs a lv9 fighter is missing:
1 weapon training bonus a +3 vs +4, as both can buy and use the gloves of dueling. But they can have furious on their weapon for +1 to their weapons total enhancement over the fighter. so the fighter will have a +2 then the barb/fighter has a +3 weapon.
It's missing out on 1 AWT option that it will catch up on in 2 levels.
What the barb/fighter has that the pure fighter doesn't.
The barb also has +2 will saves while raging, and since the bravery amount is the same for the two this is a straight win for the barb.
The barb has Rage for +2 to attack and +3 to damage since it has the GWF too and furious makes up for the missing weapon training.
Also if the barb goes savage technologist has +2 dex while raging for +2 to reflex saves and AC assuming you have room in your armor for more dex (meaning the barb can start with a 12 dex in fullplate and at this level 9 be getting +3 since the fighter raised the cap) and has 40ft movespeed
Or it can go urban just be equal on AC and movespeed with the bonus to str.
And since it has furious whenever the fighter would buy a +3 sword the barb is getting his +4 sword for more shield AC while raging.
So it should be clear that the barb 1 fighter X is quite easily keeping up if not outpacing the pure fighter.
Vs a baseline 2h combatant(like a synergist) with no inherent damage gimmick (Damage gimmick is a unique class feature to damage classes that improve their baseline damage: Ex: sneak attack, flurry of blows, weapon training, rage, favored ennemy, smite etc.) a Pure Fighter at level 5 will have +2 to hit +3 to damage at all times. A barbarian 1 Fighter 4 is at his sweet spot with +3 to Hit and +5 to damage (assuming they both took weap foc and weap spec) while raging, although he doesn't have that many rounds of it and it does hurt is AC.
However, this advantage stops as soon as you reach around level 9. At this level, several things happen:
1- You have enough money for duelist's gloves, taking your weapon training to +4.
2- You have GWF
3- You have enough feats that your base gimmick is taken care of (Combat reflexes + Power attack for 2handers, Combat expertise + greater trip etc...) so you have enough feats to dump on a massive amount of weapon trainingAt that level, you can have a weapon training bonus of +4, a bravery bonus of +3 (with a cheap item), and an advanced armor bonus of +2 and in total can give the following bonuses:
+4 to Initiative
+4 Reflex Saves
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses (also level dependent)
+2 to AC via armor expert (also level dependent)
+3 Shield bonus to AC (assumin a +2 weapon, but see bellow)and finally
+4 FLOATABLE NO LIMITS ASSIGNABLE AS A SWIFT ACTION ENHANCEMENT BONUSES ON YOUR FREAKING WEAPON!!!! Via weapon spirit. This is the clencher right here.
I think you're doing a little unfair comparison here.
First off, it seems you have far to many AWT going on, you seem to have Defensive Weapon Training, Weapon Spirit, Armed Bravery, Fighter’s Reflexes, and Trained Initiative. That's 5 AWT out of the 2 you'd be able to have at lv9.Now onto the actual characters, a lv1 barb with lv8 fighter vs a lv9 fighter is missing:
1 weapon training bonus a +3 vs +4, as both can buy and use the gloves of dueling. But they...
Advanced armor training feat at 3 and 7 plus as a class option at 7
Advanced weapon training feat at 5 and advanced weapon training as a class option at 9That's 5, about to be 6 at lvl 10, 8 at 11
How do you figure that? Vital Strike works with every weapon in the game, and all it requires is BAB6. You don't even have to be proficient. The only "planning" needed is that it occupies a feat-slot, and you have choices.
Vital strike is almost always a mathematically worse option than a full attack, ESPECIALLY when you're using a two handed weapon due to its power attack and str bonus increase.
On top of which its a standard action of its own, meaning without a feat and greatsword use its unuseable on the charge. Without longsword and the heritor knight exemption it can't be used with any of the other standard action attacks. Its a nice patch for a large crossbow. Even then its usually less damage than a full attack.
Its "useable" in that you can use it, but its not "useable" in that its a tactically strong option without further investment that also limits your weapon choice.
How do you figure that? Vital Strike works with every weapon in the game, and all it requires is BAB6. You don't even have to be proficient. The only "planning" needed is that it occupies a feat-slot, and you have choices.Vital strike is almost always a mathematically worse option than a full attack, ESPECIALLY when you're using a two handed weapon due to its power attack and str bonus increase.
On top of which its a standard action of its own, meaning without a feat and greatsword use its unuseable on the charge. Without longsword and the heritor knight exemption it can't be used with any of the other standard action attacks. Its a nice patch for a large crossbow. Even then its usually less damage than a full attack.
Its "useable" in that you can use it, but its not "useable" in that its a tactically strong option without further investment that also limits your weapon choice.
On his other post that he linked to from another thread he goes on a big rant about how anti-vital strike people always compare it to full attack and how no one's saying it's better than full attack just the best option for a standard action, which it might be. Is it worth a feat alot? Maybe not now that all these sweet sweet advanced armor and weapons training options can be picked up with the advanced armor training feat or advanced weapon training feat.
The two handed fighter doesn't get to grab the advanced armor training feat or feature though. I guess that means it's sub par compared to fighter. Does it make weapon master more viable though? They can take advanced weapon training at every other level starting at 3
+4 to Initiative
+4 Reflex Saves
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses (also level dependent)
+2 to AC via armor expert (also level dependent)
+3 Shield bonus to AC (assuming a +2 weapon, but see below)
Via weapon spirit.
First off, it seems you have far to many AWT going on, you seem to have Defensive Weapon Training, Weapon Spirit, Armed Bravery, Fighter’s Reflexes, and Trained Initiative. That's 5 AWT out of the 2 you'd be able to have at lv9.Advanced armor training feat at 3 and 7 plus as a class option at 7
Advanced weapon training feat at 5 and advanced weapon training as a class option at 9
That's 5, about to be 6 at lvl 10, 8 at 11
I said he had too many AWT, AAT aren't AWT. the barb has just as many AAT as the pure fighter and only 1 less AWT than the pure.
the +4 to initiative is Trained Initiative, an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
the +4 to reflex saves is Fighter’s Reflexes an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
+3 shield bonus to AC is Defensive Weapon Training an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses is Armed Bravery an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
Weapon Spirit is an AWT ability, not AAT ability.
And as you said, he only has 2 advanced weapon training possible at lv9. Thus his comparison is 3 over it's limit. He only has 2 and the barb has 1. Next level both gain 1 having the barb still be one behind, then the level after the barb gains one, thus taking 2 levels to catch up that loss as I said.
I'm not even anti vital strike, I just acknowledge that it requires work and weapon choice to be the best use of your standard action. Heritor knight combining it with the Iomedae divine fighting style, the prc's abilities and deadly stroke probably makes it worth it.
Gorums style and a greatsword, probably worth it for use on charges alone.
Large heavy/double crossbow with gravity bow? Sure, single target piercing fireballs from range are great as a one off.
As a random splash without planning around having it? It'll never even approach the benefit of advanced armor/weapon training.
Also Chess, OP asked a simple question between 2 options. Derailing the thread into a "but barb splashing" isn't going to convince them and all a barb splash does is MAYBE up damage a point or two, which frankly most 2hander builds don't even need.
Also Chess, OP asked a simple question between 2 options. Derailing the thread into a "but barb splashing" isn't going to convince them and all a barb splash does is MAYBE up damage a point or two, which frankly most 2hander builds don't even need.
You're right that it was derailing as my posts weren't directed to the OP but AlastarOG, as I was trying to correct the info they said that wasn't really true.
To the OP, My understanding of the general view is the "best" options are Mutation warrior, or normal.
Normal is likely the best if you have open access to all AAT and AWT to choose from. If you're limited by something like PFS where armor specialization and weapon spirit aren't options then the other options compare better.
Mutation warrior gets AC via natural armor and doesn't need DEX to get more AC while also getting a nice STR boost and eventually flight and other stuff in class.
Some decent and usable options are the Two handed and the weapon master. Again, these look better if AAT aren't options so not be missing out on the 2 AC from armor specialization and if you're not playing high levels where the DR and adamantine armor with that DR gives a good amount of DR. In lower campaigns like reaching lv12 of PFS adamantine full-plate is kind of out of reach and the DR you get is only 1 or 2, so not SUPER impactful, nor that big of a loss.
Definite point on the level requirement for that DR, A big part of why the craft AAT option is so good. Knocking the cost of adamantite full plate down from 16k to 8k is a big step, because once you get the armor, the DR scales roughly equivalent to the invulnerable rager barb.
Vital strike is almost always a mathematically worse option than a full attack
Because lawdy knows I get those 100% of the time.
How does AAT craft option work? I didn't notice that one.
Vital strike is almost always a mathematically worse option than a full attackBecause lawdy knows I get those 100% of the time.
Hey are you all about vital strike as a single feat? Or the whole chain. I'm just about ready to make a seperate thread just listing every option that's better than vital strike. Maybe I'll write a whole guide about things that are better options than vital strike
If doing vital strike, I would recommend an impact weapon, possibly with the focused weapon ability at later levels when you benefit from it.
All those dice...
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Hey are you all about vital strike as a single feat? Or the whole chain. I'm just about ready to make a seperate thread just listing every option that's better than vital strike. Maybe I'll write a whole guide about things that are better options than vital strike.
Being denied a full-attack is generally not "optional", so it's really not about "options".
I've already done the math to break down what percentage of your rounds need to be full-attacks in order for Weapon Specialization to be better than Vital Strike, and it's a higher percentage than most PCs are likely to ever enjoy.
I only suggested the charge vital strike thing in the first place was because this archtype gains double STR to single attacks and charges, so may as well boost that charge up.
This had NOTHING to do with what feat is better than what. Honestly, it's a fighter. The least feat starved class in existence, doing a two handed build, the least feat starved build in existence.
HE CAN DO ALL THE SUGGESTIONS WITH FEATS TO SPARE.
It's got everything to do with saying "Hey, I get a strong damage boost when making one attack or charging. Why not throw another d whatever in there while I'm doing it."
Full attacks are great. But they are a guarentee. This isn't about replacing full attacks, it was a suggestion on how best to monopolize moving from one mob to the next. As I specifically called out when I said "one shorting in a single turn". Meaning it's dead you move on.
How this ended up in an argument about the feats themselves rather than how those feats are used with the class archtype is beyond me.
Read the archtype, help the OP. It's about synergy not about the base feat. It never was.
That's an interesting synergy I missed that about your first comment getting distracted with the trip build concept.
+4 to Initiative
+4 Reflex Saves
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses (also level dependent)
+2 to AC via armor expert (also level dependent)
+3 Shield bonus to AC (assuming a +2 weapon, but see below)
Via weapon spirit.
First off, it seems you have far to many AWT going on, you seem to have Defensive Weapon Training, Weapon Spirit, Armed Bravery, Fighter’s Reflexes, and Trained Initiative. That's 5 AWT out of the 2 you'd be able to have at lv9.Advanced armor training feat at 3 and 7 plus as a class option at 7
Advanced weapon training feat at 5 and advanced weapon training as a class option at 9
That's 5, about to be 6 at lvl 10, 8 at 11I said he had too many AWT, AAT aren't AWT. the barb has just as many AAT as the pure fighter and only 1 less AWT than the pure.
the +4 to initiative is Trained Initiative, an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
the +4 to reflex saves is Fighter’s Reflexes an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
+3 shield bonus to AC is Defensive Weapon Training an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses is Armed Bravery an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
Weapon Spirit is an AWT ability, not AAT ability.And as you said, he only has 2 advanced weapon training possible at lv9. Thus his comparison is 3 over it's limit. He only has 2 and the barb has 1. Next level both gain 1 having the barb still be one behind, then the level after the barb gains one, thus taking 2 levels to catch up that loss as I said.
Yes there are way too many, i simply wanted to exemplify the various options this awesome class feature gives you. At level 10 you could have at best 3 AWT. Like i said earlier I'd probably splurge 3 other feat on an Animal companion. Action economy being king and all.
I could go on and on about the multiclass barb splash being 4% less or more optimal for a frontliner build, but I think we both agree that our mileage varies and that at this point we fall more into the realm of either preferences, or calculations that are too tedious and time consuming to make our point valid or not.
As for vital strike our experiences vary again, but I will admit that for the off action now and then it is not bad. Wasting a valuable feat on optimizing an off action is however not something I like doing. Let us acknowledge that both our views have merit and move on.
For the OP, honestly we could talk and talk and talk, but ultimately It boils down to this, do you want to:
1- Be the most damaging beatstick you can be to the exclusion of all else?
Or
2- Be a versatile fighter with strong offense and strong defense, plus have a way to contribute to breaking the WBL with advanced armorcrafting?
If it's 1: Go TWF fighter, if it's 2 go vanilla fighter.
Or paladin! they can get CMA&A!!
Hey are you all about vital strike as a single feat? Or the whole chain. I'm just about ready to make a seperate thread just listing every option that's better than vital strike. Maybe I'll write a whole guide about things that are better options than vital strike.Being denied a full-attack is generally not "optional", so it's really not about "options".
I've already done the math to break down what percentage of your rounds need to be full-attacks in order for Weapon Specialization to be better than Vital Strike, and it's a higher percentage than most PCs are likely to ever enjoy.
That's an absolute mess to link to. I had to skim your whole manifesto to figure out what you're talking about. You haven't said anything because you compared a fighter to a completely different class. My swashbuckler 4 Magus 3-7 can anihilate your barbarians damage with a standard action and he took weapon specialization. So what though? It isn't a fair equation.
Edit: and only Magus 3-7 because at fighter 12 a fighter can get greater weapon specialization which throws your whole anecdote (not math) about rounds off again.
+4 to Initiative
+4 Reflex Saves
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses (also level dependent)
+2 to AC via armor expert (also level dependent)
+3 Shield bonus to AC (assuming a +2 weapon, but see below)
Via weapon spirit.
First off, it seems you have far to many AWT going on, you seem to have Defensive Weapon Training, Weapon Spirit, Armed Bravery, Fighter’s Reflexes, and Trained Initiative. That's 5 AWT out of the 2 you'd be able to have at lv9.Advanced armor training feat at 3 and 7 plus as a class option at 7
Advanced weapon training feat at 5 and advanced weapon training as a class option at 9
That's 5, about to be 6 at lvl 10, 8 at 11I said he had too many AWT, AAT aren't AWT. the barb has just as many AAT as the pure fighter and only 1 less AWT than the pure.
the +4 to initiative is Trained Initiative, an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
the +4 to reflex saves is Fighter’s Reflexes an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
+3 shield bonus to AC is Defensive Weapon Training an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses is Armed Bravery an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
Weapon Spirit is an AWT ability, not AAT ability.And as you said, he only has 2 advanced weapon training possible at lv9. Thus his comparison is 3 over it's limit. He only has 2 and the barb has 1. Next level both gain 1 having the barb still be one behind, then the level after the barb gains one, thus taking 2 levels to catch up that loss as I said.
Yes there are way too many, i simply wanted to exemplify the various options this awesome class feature gives you. At level 10 you could have at best 3 AWT. Like i said earlier I'd probably splurge 3 other feat on an Animal companion. Action economy being king and all.
I could go on and on about the multiclass barb splash being 4% less or more optimal for a frontliner build, but I think we both agree...
So your opinion is that armor training adds virsatility but not direct combat power (with things like steel headbutt or getting weapons early with that WBL skew) thus the two-weapon fighter is still the superior raw numbers guy?
Plus getting full rounds as a front liner is often not really in your hands. Delivering the ennemies to you on a silver platter is the anvil/controller's job, you being able to chop them up is your job. PF is a team effort not an individual's victory.
My swashbuckler 4 Magus 3-7 can anihilate your barbarians damage with a standard action and he took weapon specialization. So what though? It isn't a fair equation.
How much of his damage is he getting from Weapon Specialization? How much from the feat alone on a standard-attack?
2 points.
-- But mention "Weapon Specialization" in any old random thread, and people won't pour out of the woodwork to crap huge, steamy mounds over it like they will Vital Strike (even though in the linked case in question it was generating ~9 pts in a fairly common deployment).