I have a sickness where I really like to optimise and play rogues merely due to the name on the character class.
I say sickness because bringing yet another useless rogue to the party tends to annoy fellow players and get everyone killed in standard APs.
Hence I'm hesitant to actually give the unchained rogue another shot I've already played one once and died as soon as I entered melee. I've had better luck with an unchained Eldritch scoundrel vmc Magus, but that is barely even a rogue at that point.
So I've thrown together yet another build, but I'm open to any optimization suggestions.
1. Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus Stealth
2. Camouflage
3. Exotic Weapon Proficiency Elven Curved Blade
4. Expert Leaper
5. Power Attack, Rogue’s Edge Stealth
6. Ninja Trick Wall Climber
7. Iron Will
8. Skill Focus UMD, Black Market Connections
9. Quick Draw
10. Skill Mastery, Rogue’s Edge Perception
11. Double Debilitation
12. Opportunist
13. Slippery Mind
14. Quick Shot
15. Rumormonger, Rogue’s Edge
16. Skill Focus Bluff, Cutting Edge
17. Cutting Edge
18. Cutting Edge
19. Cutting Edge
20. Cutting Edge
As far as dexterity-based martials go, the unRouge is pretty good.
I wouldn't go for power attack. The rogue can already do decent damage if it hits, but has a bit of an accuracy problem. If I were going to go with an exotic weapon, I'd go with the elven branched spear, because reach is nice and you can't get the crit damage to your sneak attacks anyway, and then you can spend that power attack feat on combat reflexes instead. I just noticed you already took combat reflexes at level 1.
If you're going human anyway, you should grab that exotic weapon at level 1, with the Military Tradition racial option.
Military Tradition
Source Inner Sea Races pg. 214
Several human cultures raise all children (or all children of a certain social class) to serve in the military or defend themselves with force of arms. They gain proficiency with up to two martial or exotic weapons appropriate to their culture. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
The rogue talent offensive defense is great for melee rogues, it gives a dodge bonus to ac against foes your character sneak attacks equal to the number of sneak attack dice for one round.
Half-elves make good elven curved blade using rogues, since they can get proficiency with the alternate racial trait ancestral arms and quite a few nice racial abilities. It'd free up a trait since they get low light vision, they also get a nice bonus to perception and sleep immunity and bonus against enchantments.
They can gain darkvision in place of multitalented (blended view) which is fine with this character since it's single classed.
Dual minded can give them a nice bonus to will saves, although you can't take ancestral arms and dual minded, since they both replace adaptability.
In all, I think the half-elf has an edge if alternate racial traits are used.
The rogue talent offensive defense is great for melee rogues, it gives a dodge bonus to ac against foes your character sneak attacks equal to the number of sneak attack dice for one round.
Unchained rogues do not have access to that.
If you're using Skill Unlocks and/or planning the stabby sort of Rogue it's a solid choice. Otherwise It's about par with the PHB class, I think.
I feel you're underselling the upgrade. It gets free weapon finesse and dexterity to damage. Skill Unlocks. And the Debilitating Injury ability, which is a good team based ability. So, it's better in and out of combat than the core rogue.
Don't forget arcane training for half elves it is great for any non-caster casting class.
That would basically give you free usage of wands, staves, and 1st level scrolls.
I generally prefer to take that alternate racial feature with a single-classed arcane spellcaster. It only gives you improved scroll use at low levels and improved staff use at high levels, but you can actually get your favored class bonuses.
For a non-caster in a non-PFS game, I would favor taking Fey Thoughts for a couple of extra class skills.
Short answer to the OP: If one's chained rogue is useless, then one's unchained rogue will probably be useless too.
-- The trick, of course, is how to make a chained rogue useful.
(And the answer to that is judicious multiclassing, which is the salvation for many of the core martials.)
|
Don't forget arcane training for half elves it is great for any non-caster casting class.That would basically give you free usage of wands, staves, and 1st level scrolls.
I generally prefer to take that alternate racial feature with a single-classed arcane spellcaster. It only gives you improved scroll use at low levels and improved staff use at high levels, but you can actually get your favored class bonuses.
For a non-caster in a non-PFS game, I would favor taking Fey Thoughts for a couple of extra class skills.
I see it this way. Fcb can be replaced with a feat cunning or toughness. If there was a feat that said "use all wands, staffs and 1st level scrolls without umd for one arcane class" it would be an insanely popular feat. So, for me unless my build need fcb hp and toughness, or fcb so and cunning it's a no brainer. Just heighten awareness would be enough to make this great.
Getting a +1 to caster level for scrolls of a higher level is pretty marginal. Compared to all wizard wands. You need to roll a three for a scroll 1 spell level above and a 5 for two levels above. I would take blend view on a full caster before a +1 to some checks.
Fey thought is not really needed on a rogue they have a great list of class skills as is.
I'll echo Melkiador on the combat reflexes advice. It's a wasted feat if you aren't generating opportunity attacks via reach.
I'm also a little confused about why you're going for Skill Focus and Camouflage when you're worried about combat effectiveness. Why not swap 'em out for that early exotic weapon proficiency or combat trick or weapon training?
I like it as a dip class. I wouldn't go full rogue. For mechanical reasons the slayer is better as the primary class, and for RP reasons I can likely do whatever the rogue can do with other classes, and be more efficient at the table.
|
I played a lot of (unchained) rogues, both Pure class and Multiclassed, and I love the chassis to bits. But when I look at the build that you present here, Rhedyn, I'm not quite sure what you want to do. I see Combat Reflexes, but no simple way to gain those AoO's (Reach build / Trip build). Some parts of a stealth build, but only to gain a bonus on the roll (no Dampen Presence to shut out Blindsense/sight, no Hellcat Stealth/Hide in Plain Sight). Power Attack with a twohander is present, but no accuracy bonuses. Things that go off on a Sneak Attack, but no way to gain said Sneak Attack on a regular basis. And Black Market Connections, Expert Leaper and Camouflage are also pretty situational, with the first and last mostly dependent on the type of adventure that is being played.
What I'm actually trying to say, is that I do not know what this build is supposed to do. It can do a lot of different things, but these things aren't really synergistic, nor is the small dabbling you do giving you some sort of edge.
My advise would be to first try to find out what it is that you want to do, both in combat and out of it. Do you want to be the sneaky bastard that stabs the unaware enemy in the kidneys? Focus more on a stealth build, leave power attack out of it, and go maybe for the Hide in Plain Sight route. Want to make a rogue that is on the front-line all the time? Check the Shield-Trained trait to make shields a simple/light weapon and finesse that Heavy Shield. Want to be a skill monkey? Go for it, and maybe add Combat Advice, Intimidate and UMD to be able to help during combat.
|
The rogue talent offensive defense is great for melee rogues, it gives a dodge bonus to ac against foes your character sneak attacks equal to the number of sneak attack dice for one round.Unchained rogues do not have access to that.
It’s essentially built into the class now with debilitating strike. Impose a penalty to hit instead of boosting your AC, but essentially the same effect.
I’m playing an Unchained Rogue through a PFS run of Emerald Spire. Elven Branched Spear Build. I’ve enjoyed it a lot, and was pretty much the tank for the first few levels. I dipped Snakebite Brawler to get Power Attack at level 1 and for Improved Unarmed Strike to threaten adjacent, and it puts my sneak attack progression 1 level ahead. It also let me take Combat Expertise without a 13 INT, as I needed it as a prereq for Gang Up. Anyway, the build puts out a lot of damage. Even when I can’t get a sneak attack, two handed Power Attack and 1.5x dex to Damage with the EBS mean I still hit pretty hard. I went Sanctified Rogue for the save bonus, and kept trapfinding so I can do Rogue things in the dungeon. Rogue talents have been taken up with feats so far, but I’ll probably go trap spotter at 7th (URogue 6).
Combat Reflexes because aoos are generated a lot and for opportunist.
Stealth bonuses and edge stealth combos with sniper goggles for sniping.
Two hander and power attack for when sneak attack is impossible (which happens all the time regardless of build). Two hander by itself when sneak attack gets going. Maybe both if their AC is low enough with debilitating injury. UMD provides other to-hit bonuses if you can prebuff.
Black market connections so you can get the items you need.
Expert Leaper combos with wall climber.
The main sources of sneak attack is flanking, sniping, and magic items.
I think the consensus is:
Sneak attack: slayer does it better
Skills: archeologist or Inquisitor does it better
Everything else: Rogue is at the bottom
I will say this however, just like the monk in 3.5 was a good 2 level dip, the unchained rogue in pf is a good 3 level dip for easy Dex x 1.5 to damage. I'd advise it for most non caster Dex builds. It costs you 1 Bab in order to gain:
6 additional skills level
Evasion
1 rogue talents
2 sneak track dice (which can be leveraged for other feats)
Not a bad fighter or urban barb dip.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Question is, what numbers or requirements are needing to be met to not be useless.
Question is, what numbers or requirements are needing to be met to not be useless.
Contribute as much to the party as a Magus, Warpriest, Hunter, Skald, or Bard.
My actual games tend to be ran at a much higher optimization than "not useless" so useless in my groups is not pulling weight like the real classes can. APL+4 cr encounters are normal post level 7.
|
|
I’m leaving Combat Reflexes until closer to when I can get Opportunist. 1 AoO is fine for now, and I needed to fit a lot of feats into the build. I’m working off an old version of it, but it’s something like this:
1) Power Attack, 1B) EWP: Elven Branched Spear, SA 1d6, plus Brawler abilities
2) 2B) Weapon Finesse, SA 2d6
3) Combat Expertise, RT: Combat Trick: Gang Up, Evasion
4) +1 DEX, Danger Sense +1, Finesse Training (EBS), SA 3d6
5) Furious Focus, Debilitating Injury, Divine Purpose, RT: Weapon Training (Elven Branched Spear)
6) Rogue’s Edge (Sense Motive), SA 4d6
7) Phalanx Formation, RT: Trap Spotter, Danger Sense +2
8) +1 WIS, SA 5d6
9) Improved Will, Divine Epiphany, RT: ?????
10) Danger Sense +3, SA 6d6
11) Combat Reflexes, ART: Opportunist, Rogue’s Edge: (Stealth)
12) +1 DEX, Finesse Training (Unarmed Strike), SA 7d6
Traits:
Indomitable Will
Dirty Fighter
Alternate racial traits:
Mismatched: +4 init, -2 reflex saves
Ancestral Arms: Elven Branched Spear
I might have decided to swap my Skill Unlock to something else. Can’t remember. And I might move Combat Reflexes up to 9th, depending on how my saves are doing at that point.
Anyway, it’s a perfectly capable character. The class could still use some way to boost accuracy, but debilitating injury can help there assuming you can get an initial sneak attack off. Gang Up also helps get flank bonus more often, and once Phalanx Formation comes online, I can hang out in the second rank and sneak attack over people.
|
|
Question is, what numbers or requirements are needing to be met to not be useless.Contribute as much to the party as a Magus, Warpriest, Hunter, Skald, or Bard.
My actual games tend to be ran at a much higher optimization than "not useless" so useless in my groups is not pulling weight like the real classes can. APL+4 cr encounters are normal post level 7.
All of those are caster classes, so it’ll be tough for a Rogue to contribute in as many ways as they potentially could. That probably explains why you gravitated to Eldritch Scoundrel. Other than focusing on UMD, that’s the way to go for a caster Rogue. Hunter adds animal companion into the mix, which again, is tough to match. I think you can get an Unchained Rogue doing comparable damage to a Warpriest, Bard, or Skald. It’s got a skill point advantage over Warpriest. It takes more optimization for the Rogue to keep up, but it’s not impossible. If you really want a “caster” with a Rogue feel, though, maybe look at Investigator.
|
|
Combat Reflexes because aoos are generated a lot and for opportunist.
Stealth bonuses and edge stealth combos with sniper goggles for sniping.
Two hander and power attack for when sneak attack is impossible (which happens all the time regardless of build). Two hander by itself when sneak attack gets going. Maybe both if their AC is low enough with debilitating injury. UMD provides other to-hit bonuses if you can prebuff.
Black market connections so you can get the items you need.
Expert Leaper combos with wall climber.
The main sources of sneak attack is flanking, sniping, and magic items.
All right, that is already more information to work with. So the idea is to make a switch-hitter build who opens as a sniper, and then uses the Two-Hander and Power Attack from there on. And it also seems you have players with you that are willing to generate enough AoO for you, to use Combat reflexes with. Wall Climber is indeed of great use to get to that sniper nest, with Expert Leaper to get down fast enough to contribute some more during combat.
Question is, what numbers or requirements are needing to be met to not be useless.Contribute as much to the party as a Magus, Warpriest, Hunter, Skald, or Bard.
My actual games tend to be ran at a much higher optimization than "not useless" so useless in my groups is not pulling weight like the real classes can. APL+4 cr encounters are normal post level 7.
And with this information, I'm wondering if you shouldn't be more specialized in either sniping or melee combat. Generalists are usually the first to die, because they are Jacks of all Trade, but Masters of None; they tend to get overwhelmed fast. I'm not saying it is not doable, just that it is going to be hard to keep up with the rest.
Some serious advice though, consider multiclassing. I am always fond to multiclass a Rogue with a Monk (and I even prefer the chained monk). One level of Far-Strike Monk for instance grants proficiency with all thrown weapons, +2 on saves, Improved Unarmed Strike, Precise Shot (without prereqs) and Quick Draw. A second level another +1 on saves, a bonus feat and Evasion (in case you trade it out on your rogue archetype). Note that an armored monk only loses the AC Bonus, Flurry and Fast Movement. It really isn't such a great loss. Even if you prefer non-lawful characters, an Ex-Monk loses absolutely no abilities, just the privilege to take more levels in Monk.
Another option is levels of Alchemist. The Eldritch Poisoner and the Vivisectionist also gain Sneak Attack starting lvl 1. Take 2 levels to pick up a vestigial arm, and go ranged together with the Equipment Trick: Smokestick. If you have a Goz Mask (or are an Ifrit with the Firesight feat), create a smokescreen with Slow Burn, 5ft step back and fire away for sneak attack. Or if you need to get close, use the Smoke Strike as a Swift Action to Feint that person (does require Improved Feint, so a feinting build would be required for this last one).
I'm not trying to tell you how to play with your fellow players/GM (I do not know them, nor their play-style), but maybe this is just something you could think about. APL+4 encounters on a regular basis is not something to sneeze at, and I'm assuming that this is not in conjunction with the 15min workday, but multiple of these fights on a single day.
To my experience, if you are not versatile, you die.
You need melee, range, and utility both in and out of combat or people are going to die, probably your character.
I personally dislike dipping. My illness is the desire to have "rogue" on my character sheet. There are dozens of ways to do rogue better with other classes, that doesn't fill the requirement of just being a rogue
Question is, what numbers or requirements are needing to be met to not be useless.Contribute as much to the party as a Magus, Warpriest, Hunter, Skald, or Bard.
My actual games tend to be ran at a much higher optimization than "not useless" so useless in my groups is not pulling weight like the real classes can. APL+4 cr encounters are normal post level 7.
So no offense, but all I hear is
"It needs to do a thing""My games are high optimization so it needs numbers"
What are some examples of contributing that the others are doing?
Like if most of those are INT dumped super STR characters that might as well be fighters is that how they are contributing? Like what does contributing mean and how are those contributing so we know if we're being useful.
What are some numbers you feel are needed to pull their weight in fights? Like what attack numbers are coming at you, what AC are you against? What do you feel is needed to hang with these super deadly encounters?
What does versatility mean and how does it apply?
Like is wielding a mace and a sword on different rounds what you mean? Sword and bows? Combat and skills? Like what does versatility mean for you?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Doing ranged and melee isn't needed nor a good idea. If you're melee your ranged is having ways to fly. If ranged your melee is making sure something is between you and being able to take 5ft steps. Trying to split makes you bad at both causing you or others to die since you didn't do the job well enough. Not to mention the time wasted in combat, if archery is less good then instead of shooting you should be getting melee going, otherwise you're just delaying your melee which is the better contribution.
And what in the world is "utility in combat?" Like what is this supposed to be conveying?
And what is utility out of combat? Is having many class skills that are pretty good good enough? Like I don't see how things like black market or wall climber or other such things are helping you be versatile or have meaningful utility.
|
|
To my experience, if you are not versatile, you die.
You need melee, range, and utility both in and out of combat or people are going to die, probably your character.
Ah, I see. If that is the experience you have in the groups you play with, I understand the drive to make the character as versatile as possible. My experience is that one specializes in one style of combat (ranged/melee/maneuver/spells), and have a back-up if that style doesn't function (without any necessary feat support, just a back-up weapon). This style of play gets hairy sometimes, but we're a group and we do try to cover each other's weaknesses as good as we can. The only game I play where this leisurely style of play does not count, is the Rappan Athuk game I'm playing in. But that character is so cheesed out in his role as a (threatening) tank, that I'm reluctant to make such powerful characters again (but this is a serious deviation from what I normally play).
You on the other end seem to enjoy such games on a more regular basis, so my advise doesn't seem to connect with the adventures you're playing in. Which just means that I need to adjust my advice to generate something more useful for your problem.
I personally dislike dipping. My illness is the desire to have "rogue" on my character sheet. There are dozens of ways to do rogue better with other classes, that doesn't fill the requirement of just being a rogue
Al right, no multiclassing. If I check amongst my own rogues, then I find three "pure" rogues among them. If I take away the more casual ones, I have one build left that was more versatile than any other build I used: my Makeshift Scrapper / Scout. It is currently not that high a level yet, but this is the build.
Bonus Feat(Dirty Fighting) - Comprehensive Education
Trait: Clever Wordplay and Surprise Weapon
16 - 16 - 14 - 12 - 12 - 7
FCB = 1/6 Rogue Talent
1. Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, Weapon Finesse, Dirty Fighting, Improved Disarm.
2. Evasion, RT: Combat Trick (Equipment Trick: Heavy Scabbard).
3. Toughness
4. RT: Ninja Trick: Wall Climber
5. Power Attack, Rogue's Edge (Disable Device)
6. RT: Minor Magic, RT: Major Magic
7. Bookish Rogue
8. RT: (something)
9. Greater Disarm
10.RT: Dispelling Sneak, Rogue's Edge (something)
11. (something)
12. Improvised Weapon Mastery, RT: (something)
Main Gear: Gloves of Improvised Might, several EMPTY Heavy Blade Scabbards (greatsword/bastard sword), and 1 large Heavy Blade Scabbard.
So this build has proven to be very versatile for me, due to its ability to grab whatever and attack with it. When all your "weapons" hardly ever cost a single gold piece, you have a lot of gold to spend on other things. And starting lvl 2 you can use the Equipment Trick to disarm your opponent from whatever blade they use, and immediately stash it in one of your empty scabbards. And anyone without a means to defend themselves is considered flatfooted against that broom you're fighting with, or that bowl of soup that is flying his way.
Another thing to mention, is to pack a lot of small tools and stuff. The image of Rogues is that they have just that thing to deal with this situation. Simple items as a Glass Cutter, Smokesticks, Lamp Oil + Tindertwigs, Glue Paper + a simple Hammer (stick Glue Paper on window, tap window with hammer, remove glue paper with all shards of glass), etc, etc. This makes a rogue very versatile, and the above build can also make most of those items double as "weapons".
I think the consensus is:
Sneak attack: slayer does it better
Skills: archeologist or Inquisitor does it better
Everything else: Rogue is at the bottom
I will say this however, just like the monk in 3.5 was a good 2 level dip, the unchained rogue in pf is a good 3 level dip for easy Dex x 1.5 to damage. I'd advise it for most non caster Dex builds. It costs you 1 Bab in order to gain:
6 additional skills level
Evasion
1 rogue talents
2 sneak track dice (which can be leveraged for other feats)Not a bad fighter or urban barb dip.
If you're dipping three levels, you might as well take a fourth as well for Uncanny Dodge and another rogue talent.
Not commenting on anything here besides OP's post, but here is a Unchained Rogue build I used in an old game that I liked a lot.
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=212833
Going heavy Stealth focused with Hellcat Stealth in conjunction with the level 15 skill unlock for Stealth essentially turns you into an unstoppable, untargetable, murder machine. Overall I think Unchained Rogue does the Rogue well.