| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hello everyone, this is my first ever post on the Paizo website so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I have just recently got my ultimate Wilderness book in the mail and have been browsing though it the past couple of days. I have came across the Rageshaper Shifter archetype and found the flavor very interesting. I started to Imagine how awesome it is that I can very briefly enlarge myself and gain a ton of strength to beat my foes over the head with, but then as I took a closely look some of the the wording and abilities confused me.
1. Devastating Form allows you to increase your size by 3 categories by level 20 but doesn't list if you get any stat bonus like most size increasing abilities/feats/spell, to me this sounds weird since I can be like 42 feet tall but only have the strength score an medium size PC. I know you get reach and a increase to damage but you also take size penalties to AC/ATK/Dex. Does this ability increase your STR/CON for being that size?
2. Is Invulnerable Defense suppose to scale with level? as written you give up Defensive Instinct/Chimeric Form/Greater Chimeric Form for (+2AC/DR-)? giving up three powerful abilities for a small AC/DR bonus seems weird.
I really like the Flavor of the Rageshaper,but as written giving up all abilities tied to shifter aspects/Defensive Instinct for a rage like ability without other rage base abilities (like Rage Powers)/ an ability to "APPEAR" Bigger/ and a weaker AC bonus doesn't sound like a far trade.
Welcome to the madhouse. Hope you enjoy your stay. Some good news to start with, you're in the right subforum, so no worries there.
1. Does the ability say it functions as a certain spell, like Beast Shape, Monstrous Physique, or other similar Transmutation effects? If so, you'd use those rules to determine your size benefits. I believe there may also be generic size rules as well, but I forget where they're located. If you can find them, you'd probably default to those if there's no overriding text based on the effect you're emulating (if any).
2. I'd ask for the full text on this one, but I believe there is a rule that says we can't post Paizo content that's recently released until a certain amount of time passes. I think it's 1-2 months (which is usually the time it takes before I actually start seeing rules texts from newly published material), so on this front I can't properly help you. All I can say is that I would prepare for the worst, and say that they don't scale if there is no text suggesting that it does. (After all, most effects that scale usually have text stating how it scales, if there is a limit, and so on.)
Another important thing to consider is that not all archetypes are created equal, or to have equal trades. Some archetypes are going to be better than the base class for what you're looking for in a character, some are going to be worse. Some might even be outright horrible, but the fact of the matter is that it should be rare for an archetype to be better than the base class; most commonly, they should be sidegrades, and sometimes they'll be worse to compensate for not sticking to the old school choice like everybody else normally does.
The size increase don't come with any bonuses besides the ones that size naturally has.
Bonus to CMB and CMD, penalty to AC and attack rolls and the penalty to stealth.
No it doesn't scale. the things they say they trade for aren't always what it's traded for. Like one archetypes says "you lose this power, this replaces this power" it's because it's removal is part of the balance of the rest of the abilities.
This archetype is quite bad as a player archetype, but it could make for a good boss fight archetype.
It should also increase the size of your damage dice, unless something states otherwise.
It's shame. This archetype was a cool concept (the Hulk) with a really inadequate execution. What is a rageshaper supposed to add to the party when s/he is done with their incredibly short devastating form duration (besides being fatigued)? Does the rageshifter get the boost in strength, constitution, and natural armor and the reduction in dexterity that a creature normally gets when it increases a size step? Does the boost in strength from rage stack with the increase in strength from moving up a step in size?
It's shame. This archetype was a cool concept (the Hulk) with a really inadequate execution. What is a rageshaper supposed to add to the party when s/he is done with their incredibly short devastating form duration (besides being fatigued)? Does the rageshifter get the boost in strength, constitution, and natural armor and the reduction in dexterity that a creature normally gets when it increases a size step? Does the boost in strength from rage stack with the increase in strength from moving up a step in size?
Chess Pwn is right. I built a 10th level rageshaper in Hero lab to see how he'd compare to other characters and he doesn't come close to being viable. The only strength and constitution bonuses come from Rage or Greater Rage, nothing from actually growing in size. I don't understand why they didn't make Invulnerable defense scale. You can't use most armor because it doesn't change size when you shift and you give up so much for that little boost. Making Invulnerable Defense scale and giving the archetype access to a small number of rage powers would have gone a long way to making this archetype fun without making it unbalanced.
While it is a cool concept, the Rageshifter is a poorly designed archetype that is nearly unplayable.
1) They gain the bonuses of a barbarian’s rage and increased sized damage dice but no size based bonus to STR or Con. Unlike enlarge person, it does not grant a bonus to strength but still inflicts the penalties to attacks and AC. The only benefit to as written is that they don’t gain the typical Dex penalty.
2) As written there is no scaling. If it was meant to scale the writers, editors, and FAQ people afterwards have all overlooked it. Losing defensive instinct alone made this a serious loss.
I agree that this archetype gets in exchange for what it gives up is far from fair. Also note that the enlargement prevents you from wearing normal armor and takes a full round while provoking to activate but only last for rounds per level. This means that it’s too short to use it before a fight starts thus you waste your first round to enlarge. And once you do finally gain enough rounds of frenzy to last longer than a fight he has to make a will save or possibly attack allies while wasting precious rounds of frenzy.
And don’t forget, the slams bypass the far less common problem of hardness of objects and never count as even magic without an Amulet of Mighty Fist.
Like the Brute before it, this pseudo-Hulk is worthless.
While it is a cool concept, the Rageshifter is a poorly designed archetype that is nearly unplayable.
1) They gain the bonuses of a barbarian’s rage and increased sized damage dice but no size based bonus to STR or Con. Unlike enlarge person, it does not grant a bonus to strength but still inflicts the penalties to attacks and AC. The only benefit to as written is that they don’t gain the typical Dex penalty.
2) As written there is no scaling. If it was meant to scale the writers, editors, and FAQ people afterwards have all overlooked it. Losing defensive instinct alone made this a serious loss.
I agree that this archetype gets in exchange for what it gives up is far from fair. Also note that the enlargement prevents you from wearing normal armor and takes a full round while provoking to activate but only last for rounds per level. This means that it’s too short to use it before a fight starts thus you waste your first round to enlarge. And once you do finally gain enough rounds of frenzy to last longer than a fight he has to make a will save or possibly attack allies while wasting precious rounds of frenzy.
And don’t forget, the slams bypass the far less common problem of hardness of objects and never count as even magic without an Amulet of Mighty Fist.
Like the Brute before it, this pseudo-Hulk is worthless.
Good point about the slam replacing claws and trading hardness for bypassing DR. That's another big loss. What is frustrating to me is that the developers haven't gone back and fixed these archetypes even though people on the boards have put forth a plethora of fixes that could make this archetype and the oozemorph not only viable but fun to play.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Good point about the slam replacing claws and trading hardness for bypassing DR. That's another big loss. What is frustrating to me is that the developers haven't gone back and fixed these archetypes even though people on the boards have put forth a plethora of fixes that could make this archetype and the oozemorph not only viable but fun to play.While it is a cool concept, the Rageshifter is a poorly designed archetype that is nearly unplayable.
1) They gain the bonuses of a barbarian’s rage and increased sized damage dice but no size based bonus to STR or Con. Unlike enlarge person, it does not grant a bonus to strength but still inflicts the penalties to attacks and AC. The only benefit to as written is that they don’t gain the typical Dex penalty.
2) As written there is no scaling. If it was meant to scale the writers, editors, and FAQ people afterwards have all overlooked it. Losing defensive instinct alone made this a serious loss.
I agree that this archetype gets in exchange for what it gives up is far from fair. Also note that the enlargement prevents you from wearing normal armor and takes a full round while provoking to activate but only last for rounds per level. This means that it’s too short to use it before a fight starts thus you waste your first round to enlarge. And once you do finally gain enough rounds of frenzy to last longer than a fight he has to make a will save or possibly attack allies while wasting precious rounds of frenzy.
And don’t forget, the slams bypass the far less common problem of hardness of objects and never count as even magic without an Amulet of Mighty Fist.
Like the Brute before it, this pseudo-Hulk is worthless.
Frankly Paizo rushed of the Shifter class. The entire thing needs to go back and be redesigned.
Good point about the slam replacing claws and trading hardness for bypassing DR. That's another big loss. What is frustrating to me is that the developers haven't gone back and fixed these archetypes even though people on the boards have put forth a plethora of fixes that could make this archetype and the oozemorph not only viable but fun to play.
I need to find the quote, but the person behind the oozemorph came out and said the archetype was suppose to be a downgrade.
Some archetypes are basically "NPC" archetypes, but it is sad to see so many of them in one of their last PF1 books. I understand why to an extent, but it still sucks that they said "HEY GUYS! You can finally play as an Ooze! Look its cool and shiny!" then pull the rug out. If they creator said it was a bad/NPC archetype, Paizo shouldn't have mentioned it at all until the book came out.
Any thoughts on having a wildshape druid dipping a few levels in Rageshaper?
Rather than a Rageshaper, I would strongly suggest that you consider the Beastkin Berserker Barbarian archetype. It allows you to transform into a number of different creatures when you Rage. Furthermore, you gain the full benefits of both Rage and Beast Shape (unless you're playing in PFS). As such, you're an amazingly strong combatant at almost all levels of play.
Any thoughts on having a wildshape druid dipping a few levels in Rageshaper?
What for? Polymorph effects make you immune against size changing effects.
Hi, First time poster like Lloyd-Starbuck
and like Lloyd i found the class integrering but had simuler questions...
Now after reading all of your comments i sat down an did some math and here is the conclusion i have reached:
If we assume the Rageshaper get the full effect of his size incresse, then at level 20 he would get:
+ 32 Str
+ 20 Con
- 6 Dex
+ 4 Will
+ 9 Natural Armor
- 4 Attack
- 4 AC
x2 1d10 Slam
+ 15 foot reach
AKA
+ 7 to Hit
+ 11 to Damage
100
+2 AC + the extra 2 AC from his other ability
EDIT: this is with both size and rage bonuses!
now at first look this seems insane, but then again...
depending on how your DM looks at the question of "Size and Magic Items" this could actually still leave you weaker en a standard Barbarian, so let me elaborate on my thinking
the core rulebook states to the question of Size and Magic Items: "Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. There may be rare exceptions."
now in my group we have accepted this when it comes to miscellaneous magical items, but not when it comes to armour
now this would leave you with a wizards AC as a front line fighter, which would make you very vulnerable even with your boosted health, and since most parties have no way of transporting a Gargantuan weapon, and since your slam attacks which bypass no form of damage reduction, they are kind of s!*& even with your new and ridiculous strength
Now the main flaw in my arguement is that, as far as i remember, there is no rule preventing a Gargantuan creature from wielding a Medium sized "Vorpel Greataxe of Doom and Destiny", although that could easily be solved with a simple house rule, as i think it would be kinda hard to use a weapon the size of a toothpick as intended as you would basicly end up hitting your target with your meaty fist instead
so my thoughts on the whole thing in a nutshell is
If magic items dont follow your size you still end up weaker then the standard Barbarian, as he would have more attacks then you, more options then you, and the differnce in strength and health he could make up for and surpass with magic items
But at the end of the day, some Errates or House Rules is needed to make the Rageshaper viable as a player character
So.... me and my group run this a bit differently. Because the size changing ability doesn't specify what it gives, we assumed that you got the size up stat increases from the monster advancement section of the bestiary. It makes the rageshaper a frankly terrifyingly strong bag of massive hit points.... Which handily offsets the lack of DR bypass and low AC. It also makes the frenzy on a failed will save even more problematic.... So basically a fully realized Hulk.
Generally if the ability doesn't say you get stat increases, you don't. Devastating form's description gives you size (which gives damage dice, CMB/D and reach directly) and str/con bonuses from rage which are implied to come from the size increase. The bestiary stuff for a monster which has advanced size categories due to HD is quite separate.
Bracers of Armor helps AC and doesn't break.
|
I realize I'm commenting on an old thread, but I'm GM'ing Strange Aeons and one of the characters has chosen this archetype, and am hoping to run my thoughts past a larger audience.
Since the shifter Wild Shape abilities work like beast shape II, and that is one of the parts this archetype replaces, wouldn't that be a valid template for the size change abilities?
From Beast Shape II: Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
Then Rage on top of that, but with the extreme limit on times per day ant the penalties coming out of it, I don't feel as overpowered.
Size bonuses from spells vary by creature type, so you really need the bonuses to be specified in the power itself: Large Magical Beasts (BS4) get the same strength / Natural Armor boosts and a better Con boost than a Huge Animal (BS3) does.
Also, note that Devestating Form is not actually a polymorph effect and specifically breaks several polymorphing rules (such as equipment neither resizing nor absorbed).
Source
Ultimate Wilderness pg. 26
A rageshaper can enter a state of intense fury, transforming into a living engine of destruction. This ability functions as the barbarian’s rage class feature, except entering this state of fury requires a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity and has additional effects as noted below. At the start of the rageshaper’s next turn, he not only gains the benefit of rage but also grows one size category larger (though worn equipment and held items do not increase in size).
Armor or clothing the rageshaper wears that doesn’t accommodate his changing size immediately gains the broken condition. If insufficient room is available to accommodate this change, the rageshaper attains the maximum possible size for the available space and can attempt a Strength check (using his increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If the check fails, he is constrained but not harmed by the materials enclosing him.
A rageshaper can remain in his devastating form for a number of rounds per day equal to his shifter level. He can dismiss devastating form only with a successful Will save (DC = 10 + his shifter level) made as a free action. On a failed save, the attempted remains in devastating form for an additional round. If the rageshaper does not successfully end his devastating form before he runs out of daily rounds, the next time he fails his Will save to revert, he flies into an uncontrollable frenzy as if affected by confusion, but he treats a roll of 26–50 as “attacks nearest creature.” Each round the rageshaper spends in an uncontrollable frenzy, the Will save DC to exit devastating form decreases by 2.
When a rageshaper ends his devastating form ability, he is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to twice the number of rounds he spent in devastating form. A rageshaper cannot enter devastating form again while fatigued or exhausted. If a rageshaper falls unconscious, his devastating form ends immediately.
At 10th level, the rageshaper can grow up to a maximum of two size categories larger with devastating form and his rage is now treated as greater rage.
At 20th level, the rageshaper can grow up to a maximum of three size categories larger with devastating form and his rage is treated as mighty rage.
This replaces wild shape, shifter aspect, and all improvements to shifter aspect.
I'm guessing they didn't want the Shifter to be better at raging than an actual Barbarian or Bloodrager but ended up with a pretty useless archetype...