Since there is no way to get Dex to damage in Core play, I recommend against using a Halfling for your rogue. The necessity of using small weapons and the negative racial modifier to your Strength are going to make it so that you must rely on Sneak damage almost exclusively and there will be many times where you can't get that. That said, I do agree with Ajaxis that you should look at a minimum 14 Con for any melee character.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I played a melee rogue to 15th level using mostly core rules (except for being a Tengu, but no archetype), and I only had a Con of 12. He died once at 8th level, but I later found out the GM ran the encounter wrong anyways. So I wouldn't say a 14 Con is necessary. Take Toughness if you're worried about hit points.
That being said, Halfling would be tough. Maybe have an Int of 12 and use the Major/Minor Magic Talents to give yourself something to do against foes immune to Sneak Attack.
Your Stealth will be amazing so focusing on archery and buying scrolls of Greater Invisibility would be a sound tactic.
Or go Party Face/Skill Monkey and leave the bruising to the rest of your party.
Or go Party Face/Skill Monkey and leave the bruising to the rest of your party.
Please don't do this as a rogue, go bard for this as then you're better at it AND not as useless when it's time to fight.
|
Could do a halfling rogue: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10.
1st level, take Weapon Finesse: Rapier +5 1d4+1 (18-20) (Not great but it's just for 1 level)
Use 2nd level talent to get Power Attack via Combat Trick: Rapier +5 1d4+3 (18-20)
3rd level get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Curve Blade: Masterwork ECB +7 1d8+4 (18-20)
Decent damage there, even better when you do get sneak attack. Still lots of skills.
what "utility" do you get by being a rogue?
All a rogue has is 8 skills per level and trapfinding. 8 skills per level really isn't that great since bards with 6, free bardic knowledge and bardic performance let you have more skills per level than a rogue.
that leaves disabling of magical traps as the only thing that the rogue has going for it, while the bard has party buffs, performances that can be useful, and spells.
Now if you're set on rogue go for it and I hope you have fun, but it will be an informed decision to be less useful to have the class name rogue. And by answering why rogue you'll help us know what you're wanting to help make sure we reach it.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
|
Halflings don't have a Con penalty.
Ajaxis and LoPan666 were advising a minimum of 14 Con for a melee rogue.
I was giving an example of how it isn't a requirement.
You were a tengu. Tengu have a Con penalty. You bought a 14 Con before racial penalties. Therefore you have a 12 Con.
My point is that you purchased a 14 Con before penalties. As a tengu you spent the same number of stat points to get a 12 as a halfling would need to get a 14.
The real advice is to spend at least 5 stat points on Con (unless you get a stat boost in Con, then you can spend fewer).
This is a good baseline for any PFS character.
|
|
You were a tengu. Tengu have a Con penalty. You bought a 14 Con before racial penalties. Therefore you have a 12 Con.Halflings don't have a Con penalty.
Ajaxis and LoPan666 were advising a minimum of 14 Con for a melee rogue.
I was giving an example of how it isn't a requirement.
-_-
No. Had I followed their advice, I would have bought a 16 Con before racial penalties.
16–2=14
Is this seriously what you want to argue?
EDIT: you edited your post, I edited my post. Drop it already?
I wouldn't say a 14 Con is a requirement, but I do recommend it strongly for almost any character that can afford it. I don't personally recommend spending more than 5 points on Con for any class that does not use it for class abilities (barbarian and kineticist, for example). My Tengu fighter/rogue has come closer than I would like to death on a couple of occasions, so after starting with a 12, I have been putting my level bumps into Con. I also have a Sylph magus that ended up with a 12 Con, but that character was built with GM credits and so skipped past the most dangerous levels. Still, I will probably be looking at getting an item to bump that stat before long. Given that this is for a Core character, this will not be an issue unless you are using an Elf.
For Core play, I created a human ranger/rogue mix with a high strength and two-weapon fighting style and I'd say that it has worked pretty well.
I get a 16 con if i can. I seem to attract max damage double 20s
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My -1 is a human sorceress with an original CON of 14, and it is now an 18. She was put down with a pair of Cone of Cold spells and only a boon giving additional hit points before death from negatives saved her. She was also hit by a pouncing bulette from surprise... the GM rolled 3 attack dice, 20, 20, 20. (GM had a reputation for rolling low.) Hit Points are sometimes a real necessity.
That said, I have an elf wizard with a 10 CON (now belted up to 12 at 12th level). Going first is very useful in controlling what might happen to you.
My very favorite paladin spell is Hero's Defiance, and I would never think of trading away Lay On Hands.
I haven't played a Rogue, but if you are planning on mixing it up in melee, some way of keeping yourself alive when circumstances are all arrayed against you is very important. Hit Points are the safety net when your protections get circumvented.
Newer to Pathfinder and looking for advice on ability score assignments for a Halfling Rogue for PFS Core Rule play.
I assume Dex then Str, but I’m not sure after that and what all things I should consider when making the assignments. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
First thing is take with a grain of salt all advice telling you not to play a halfling, and/or to jack your strength to do more (miniscule numerical) damage. You're in Core. Core is not a DPR hunt (it's the anti-thesis).
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 14
Combat Expertise is your 1st-level feat. (Hold your nose and take it.) Raise your dexterity at 4th. Put points into Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable, Escape Artist, Knowledge:Local, Perception, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. (Next level, pick up Disguise and Sense Motive,) Concentrate on being an awesome sneak-weasel who discovers novel ways to solve problems, not a fighter. Why not Weapon Finesse at 1st? To drag you away from the mentality that you need to jump into melee and flank.
If you think you need to be a fighter, then take one level of it at 3rd, and pick up Dodge and Mobility simultaneously.
If you insist on making a rogue and have to do damage, make DEX and CHA higher. You can feint in combat for sneak attack damage. Weapon finesse and use a rapier. Threat range is good, so you have a pretty good chance at dealing double damage with an additional die of sneak attack damage. I also wouldn't let anyone discourage you from playing a halfling. Halflings aren;t meant to be massive damage dealers. There's a reason they get a lot of skills. A halfling rogue can sneak into a place better than any other core race. Depending on how the GM runs NPC's, the bad guys would focus more on the big fighters or magic users and ignore the little halfling... allowing him to slip around behind them, unnoticed to sneak attack. Or, go ranged. THe sniper archetype is pretty effective. Just don't limit yourself to a damage dealer rogue. Rogue's outshine the other classes in other ways.
Rogue's outshine the other classes in other ways.
I'm highly curious in which ways a rogue outshines in core. Disabling magical traps is the only thing I'm aware of.
Stealth. Finding and disabling traps. Lots of skill points. A high enough charisma and Use Magic device and a fistfull of wands and you have a cleric and magic user backup. They have enough skill points that they can Climb up to a window, Search for traps, Pick the lock, Sneak inside, Sneak downstairs and open the door for the rest of the group to get in. Then, when they get in a fight, he can slip out, sneak around and attack from hiding or figure out any number of different ways to influence the combat.
They do these things easier than other classes due to their number of skill points and their Trap Finding ability. And halflings are the best at stealth. Again, using Core races.
I would also recommend going for a STR focused build, possibly with 1 or more levels of Fighter.
(let's just say 1 level, because you are starting out and don't need to get fancy)
What class you take first isn't that important here IMHO, Rogue for skills / Fighter for weapon/HPs.
Otherwise life will be tough trying to use DEX in a Core game, and trying to make 2WF* work will
be frustrating especially for a new player, as Full Attacks are not always easy to come by (and 2WF depends on them),
so focusing on using one big weapon will give you a simpler time with things while learning the game.
(the biggest damage weapons are 2 handed only, but you can use 'standard' weapons with 2 hands for same damage bonus
while still having option to use it with 1 hand which can be useful in some situations)
* 2 weapon fighting, which gives extra attack(s), but only when you don't move more than 5' (one square).
Rogues are fun in low level games (<level 5) or in role-play heavy games. If neither applies then I would go Slayer for the same flavour but stays effective in combat past level 4.
If you are truly married to the idea of Rogue go Strength and get a 2 handed weapon. Less opportunities to sneak attack but you might actually hit something.
Stealth. Finding and disabling traps. Lots of skill points. A high enough charisma and Use Magic device and a fistfull of wands and you have a cleric and magic user backup. They have enough skill points that they can Climb up to a window, Search for traps, Pick the lock, Sneak inside, Sneak downstairs and open the door for the rest of the group to get in. Then, when they get in a fight, he can slip out, sneak around and attack from hiding or figure out any number of different ways to influence the combat.
They do these things easier than other classes due to their number of skill points and their Trap Finding ability. And halflings are the best at stealth. Again, using Core races.
Okay so bard, core, halfling.
Stealth, beat the rogues at that, you have the same bonuses, plus you can add heroism, invisibility and silence. So barb wins, at it's worse it's just as good as the rogue, at it's best it's way ahead. Heck, a halfling ranger, or monk also have just as good of a stealth as a rogue.finding and disabling traps, so in core the rogue starts to pull ahead slightly at lv6 for finding and disabling traps compared to a heroism bard, and this also assumes that the bard gets DD as a class skill via trait.
you have far more effective skill points per level than a comparable rogue and you have spells to boost them too.
high charisma and UMD isn't something limited to a rogue, and the bard does it better since it actually has a spell list so it doesn't need to UMD everything.
They have enough skill points to climb up to a window, search for traps, pick the lock, sneak inside, more sneaking, and opening a door. Plus he could potentially just charm a guard if he finds one into being his friend and have him open the door maybe.
If a fight breaks out he can buff his fellow party members and cast spells or fight and and actually contribute to the fight rather than running away and maybe doing something "helpful" round 3 or 4 (short legs makes running around to flank pretty hard)
I'm not seeing any "outshining" going on. you are a tiny bit better at one thing, traps, than the bard, but worse or equal at everything else the rogue does, and then the bard has lots of options that the rogue doesn't have.
^ Ranger Favored Terrain/Enemy also gives bonuses to a bunch of skills Rogues have no way of matching.
Rogues do have a FEW options for "penalty negation" (like 'narrow ledges') but that is over all weaker than a flat bonus.
Unchained can choose Favored Terrain but still no bonuses otherwise, which IMHO should have come w/ Rogue's Edge.
Of course full caster characters will tend to have large bonus to INT/WIS/CHA based skills the Rogue can't match.
(even with Trapfinding it's doubtful a Rogue will be any better than a caster Cleric/Druid at Perception vs non-magical Traps)
Ranger's 6 ranks/level is not far from Rogue's, and a Wizard starting w/ 20 INT has 7 ranks/level just to start.
(Bards' Versatile Performance matching Rogues for effective ranks @ 6th level and go up from there)
Rogues are fun in low level games (<level 5) or in role-play heavy games. If neither applies then I would go Slayer for the same flavour but stays effective in combat past level 4.
If you are truly married to the idea of Rogue go Strength and get a 2 handed weapon. Less opportunities to sneak attack but you might actually hit something.
They are going core only, so slayer's aren't an option for them.
Joshua Sutton, what mechanics from the rogue do you like?
I think a good stealthy skill monkey that can fight is the ranger.
BAB +1, 1d10 HD, Good Fortitude and Reflex saves, 6+ Skill ranks.
So a really great class chassis.
The class skills are great! Perception, Stealth, and Survival are key, and then the rest are also fun: Climb, Ride, and Swim enhance mobility, some Knowledge skills (Dungeoneering, Geography, Nature) that are at least worth dipping in, and some social skills, like Handle Animal and Intimidate. Heal might be worth a dip at low levels depending on your party make up.
Favored Enemy is situational, but pretty potent when it comes up.
Wild Empathy is also situational, but it's a great non-combat conflict resolution mechanic.
Combat Style is amazing. You get a bunch of bonus feats, but they're allocated in specific styles so you don't get overwhelmed with too many choices. You also get to ignore a bunch of prerequisites for your bonus feats, which is really nice.
Endurance and Favored Terrain are nice perks.
Nature's Bond is great. You either get an animal companion, which helps with your action economy in a pinch and help you scout; alternatively, you get to share half your Favored Enemy bonus with your allies.
You also get spells. At a minimum, you can use wands of cure light wounds. They're also divine Wisdom-based spells, so that gives you an excuse to pump up your Wisdom score, which bolsters your poor Will saves. Which is good. Combined with the usefulness of Perception and Survival, you're really encouraged to have at least a decent Wisdom.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except that most encounters are, in fact, combat encounters.
Only because most PCs immediately jump into fighting regardless of necessity.
Think outside the box.
Which is cheaper: the party bribing its way past an unnecessary combat for 50gp, or everybody burning 50gp worth of charges off their CLWs to heal up afterward?
BTW, if your PFS table judge is denying you scenario rewards because you didn't murderhobo everyone remotely adversarial and loot their corpses, show them the "Creative Solutions" section on page 12 of the PSRGG. (As respectfully as possible, of course.)
A rogue's first job in a fight is to not be a drain on party healing by being routinely ripped in half by a drooling monster. After that, assist the martials or steal the McGuffin or fix the countdown-trap while everybody else is busy. That's what the class is designed for, not just spamming sneak-attack dice. It's only "suboptimal" when the player refuses to realize what the class' innate strengths, and insists on being a BSF by raising strength, being normal-size, and dumping int and cha (meaning he'll be worthless at stealth, disable, and social BS'ery).
Are there other classes in the game that "beat the rogue at his own game" in some or other capacity? Sure. But few of those are core, and none of them do everything that a rogue can.
Core-only rogues are actually worse off than non-core rogues. They don't have the options (like Unchained) available to them...
Apart from a free feat (Weapon Finesse) and saving money on a weapon enhancement (Agile), Unchained is overrated. My "chained" halfling rogue TWF'd, but also used a lance while mounted, shot a bow, threw nets and alchemicals, and UMD'd grease (you'd be surprised how lousy reflex saves remain in many adversaries even at higher levels). The point was, he always had a trick up his sleeve.
(It should be noted that a one or two level dip in a martial class never hurt any rogue. Two levels of paladin is an especially good stack in a halfling.)
Yes, core DEX rogue with TWF can work, as can one-weapon DEX rogue. But strength rogue will do better.Strength rogues do decently in static DPR contests on paper; they do not do as well in random-PFS table environments in which the reliability of your allies is always questionable (particularly at low levels). They have much lower check numbers in everything a rogue should excel at.
A counter stat spread, using 15 point buy:Well, 20 for the OP's PFS character.
Of course it's a rogue's job -- they have every Charisma skill in the game (aside from Handle Animal) on their class list. This particular dwarf would do much better as a barbarian or a fighter multiclass who takes only a few levels of rogue (no more than four).Dwarf
14/10/16/14/14/6
Human/Half-Orc/Half-Elf
16/10/14/14/12/8
Your INT is still 14, meaning you're *just fine* at doing skill-based things. Your Charisma is low, but that's not your job.
Dexterity is NOT necessary for a good rogue.
Rogues also have every dexterity skill (with the sole exception of Ride) on their class list. - What is the rogue tossing his 10 skills per level into after hosing the two attributes most of the class's skills are based off of?
What does this dex10 dwarf straight-class rogue wear for armor that is worth a darn thing? Heavy armor, eating armor-check penalties to half his skills (and those penalties won't go away as they would if he were a fighter with Armor Training bonuses.) He could spend ten grand on MFP and have worse AC than a 1st level halfling in a 100gp chainshirt.
The player has spent ten build points on Str to get a 10. If he's not taking Combat Expertise, then he's overpaid on Int to have a 14 instead of a 12. (A tenth-important skill is not more important than 15% of your build points, as 3 points is the cost of going from a 12 to a 14.)
Meanwhile, the half/human barbarian with an 18 for the same build points who rages to 22 will enjoy a full +4 higher attack bonus at 1st level over a Str16 rogue, not to mention having +4 con and +2 will saves while raging. After his first adventure, the 1st-level dwarf fighter with Weapon Focus who buys splint armor and a tower shield for +11 AC, and has the same attack bonus, despite the shield's -2 penalty, as the rogue who lost BAB and has one fewer feats. The strength rogue will always be second-fiddle to either in melee.
I.e., the strength rogue will never "shine" like the iconic sneak should shine when it does something amazing that no martial at the table can do, like stealthily coup de gracing a whole barracks full of snoozing thugs.
Seriously... If that's your game style and works for you then, great.
But the OP explicitly said he's new to the game and asking the most basic questions.
So this isn't about game play in general, or Rogues as such, but how somebody with a weak grasp of basic game mechanics
can most easily get into the game and find a moderate level of success at game options presented to them.
You're basically saying most people play the game "wrong" and he should play it a different way. Whatever.
But he's going to be playing the game as beginner learning from his co-players who... probably play similar to most people.
Trying to play smarter/better then them, trying to take some unique approach is probably not a good way to learn
from his co-players, and maybe even MORE importantly have fun TOGETHER playing with them.
Going with the flow is really the best advice I think we can give him,
because all the other players and GM can most easily help him along then.
Given the OP's beginner's level grasp of mechanics and over all game dynamics, I don't think it's a prudent assumption
he has the requisite understanding to make good judgement calls necessary when 'going off the rails' solo ala James Bond.
Even if he's f!!+ing awesome and just clicks with the game rules quickly, it's still good to learn by osmosis.
After all it's a social game, so it's not even just matter of knowing the rules, but being comfortable with
how teamwork develops leveraging those rules, which solo ninja missions don't help develop.
So telling him to go solo and be a spotlight hog seems counterproductive to what a beginner player should be doing,
at both game play mechanics level and social interaction level so as not to disrupt other players he wants to learn from.
Okay so bard, core, halfling.
Stealth, beat the rogues at that, you have the same bonuses, plus you can add heroism, invisibility and silence. So barb wins, at it's worse it's just as good as the rogue, at it's best it's way ahead. Heck, a halfling ranger, or monk also have just as good of a stealth as a rogue.finding and disabling traps, so in core the rogue starts to pull ahead slightly at lv6 for finding and disabling traps compared to a heroism bard, and this also assumes that the bard gets DD as a class skill via trait.
you have far more effective skill points per level than a comparable rogue and you have spells to boost them too.
high charisma and UMD isn't something limited to a rogue, and the bard does it better since it actually has a spell list so it doesn't need to UMD everything.
They have enough skill points to climb up to a window, search for traps, pick the lock, sneak inside, more sneaking, and opening a door. Plus he could potentially just charm a guard if he finds one into being his friend and have him open the door maybe.
If a fight breaks out he can buff his fellow party members and cast spells or fight and and actually contribute to the fight rather than running away and maybe doing something "helpful" round 3 or 4 (short legs makes running around to flank pretty hard)I'm not seeing any "outshining" going on. you are a tiny bit better at one thing, traps, than the bard, but worse or equal at everything else the rogue does, and then the bard has lots of options that the rogue doesn't have.
Okay. So, a 4th level bard gets to use those spells. You can easily turn a bard into a rogue. Especially since it's a subclass of Rogue... or it was in earlier editions. They don;t have subclasses anymore. If you play a bard for what it's meant to be, you're spending the (fewer) skill points on other things like more knowledges, performance, maybe a craft so the bard can paint or fix his lute. Rogues focus on stealth opening things that aren't for them to open, finding and disabling traps (including magical) so you and your buddies don't get incinerated. If you want to play powergamer and use a bard to make a rogue, feel free. But if you play each class for role-play aspect, each one has their own place... even a rogue.
I play a (mostly) traditional halfling rogue: Dexterity as highest score, depends on sneak attack, uses two weapons. Further I am also restricted to Core Rulebook, because it's the GM's first campaign. Most important lesson was: Don't try to be a one-trick pony, build a toolbox of options:
Use Acrobatics and Stealth on the battlefield.
Put at least one rank into each class skill.
Make sure you know the uses of your skills.
Switch between two melee weapons and one.
Get a sap for the cases where it's better to keep someone alive.
Ranged can be ok without feats, at least for a opening round.
Pick up Improved Feint and Greater Feint, if possible. The pain of Combat Expertise can be reduced with using the combat trick rogue talent (just 1 level of delay).
Turn to total defense if you can't do serious damage anyway.
Alternatively, use aid another, especially on very low level.
Pick up a level 1 spell (major magic) if you have the Int. Choose wisely.
Use your magic items.
Seriously... If that's your game style and works for you then, great. But the OP explicitly said he's new to the game and asking the most basic questions."the game" he's playing is PFS Core". -- That's a new game for everybody. All that power-creep that everybody thinks the rogue needs to "keep up with" to be "viable" at high level is gone. To start with, you won't even get to high level anyway. Core is a detuned, relaxed atmosphere where you can have fun.
So this isn't about game play in general, or Rogues as such, but how somebody with a weak grasp of basic game mechanics can most easily get into the game and find a moderate level of success at game options presented to them.
He said he hadn't played in thirty years, not that he didn't understand RPGs. (AD&D is a bigger pain in the ass to number-crunch than 3e. If you can handle THAC0, you can certainly play this game.)
They're better in toe-to-toe melee combat; they're worse at everything else.Apart from a free feat (Weapon Finesse) and saving money on a weapon enhancement (Agile), Unchained is overrated. My "chained" halfling rogue TWF'd, but also used a lance while mounted, shot a bow, threw nets and alchemicals, and UMD'd grease (you'd be surprised how lousy reflex saves remain in many adversaries even at higher levels). The point was, he always had a trick up his sleeve.1. The Strength-based rogue is in no way WORSE at the same playstyle...
2. That free feat and the free dex-to-damage go a LONG way to making a rogue more viable, especially since the Agile enchantment makes your subsequent enchantments more expensive. NEEDING to get that enchantment makes it harder to keep up should you ever reach a point when you could use that. Wouldn't you much rather be able to spend that money on a more thematic weapon enchantment? I would."thematic" (i.e., non-numeric) weapon-enhancements are usually traps (i.e., a 1d6 damage enhancement is usually not better than a straight +1 bonus). Is Agile nice? Oh yes. But it's only on one weapon. It's not on your bow, or your lance, or your net, or your satchel full of Tanglefoot bags. It's only on your 5' reach frogsticker, teasing you into thinking it's a bright idea to stand next to the monster with swallow whole to try to get an extra 5d6 sneak.
Plus, you're ignoring the greater number of Rogue Talents available in non-Core Rogues...
Because this is not a non-core discussion.
(Mind you: I played a chained rogue in non-core PFS through season 2, which some of the veterans shudder in recollection of. I did just fine as a halfling with Two Weapon Fighting at 1st level who then segued into Rapid Shot archery and eventually let his sword grow rusty in its scabbard.)
you're ignoring Skill Unlocks and....
Those are non-core.
|
|
I'd go Str-based, with however enough Dex to take also TWF.
Half-elf,
16+2 15 14 8 10 10
1- TWF, Skill Focus[Intimidate]
2- Weapon Training[Quarterstaff]
3- Power Attack
4- Combat Trick -> Dazzling Display (+1 to Dex, then Str)
5- Intimidating Prowess
6- Any
7- Any (Iron Will? Double Slice? Dazzling Display if you don't want to waste Combat Trick?)
8- Any (Combat Trick -> Shatter Defenses if you didn't use it before)
9- Shatter Defenses
Anytime you can't full attack or deal sneak attack, wield the quarterstaff 2H to pump up damage, otherwise go TWF. Always use Power Attack: in the first case you won't have TWF penalties, and you'll add 1.5x the bonus to damage; in the second case you'll be probably flanking, which offsets TWF penalties.
Before you get Dazzling Display, use Intimidate on single targets: -2 to hit and saves is a good debuff and the casters will be thankful. Once you get DD, it will be an area debuff.
Once you're lvl 9 (or 8), use DD first thing first at the beginning of the fight. Your high Intimidate score will ensure the debuff lasts a few rounds. After the first hit, enemies will be flat footed for you, which ensures no-dex to AC and sneak attack.
If Cruel enhancement is within core (I don't remember), then enhance one end of the weapon with it, to inflict another -2 to hit, saves and damage. Casters will love you.
If you dip 1 lvl into Barb or Fighter, consider going Half-orc instead if you want to use a double Orc-axe (in addition to all the other benefits).
Max Perception and Intimidate, and feel free to spend the remaining 5 skill ranks where you prefer. Dump Int to 7 if you don't mind losing an additional skill rank, and raise Cha to 12 for an extra +1 to Intimidate.
Okay. So, a 4th level bard gets to use those spells. You can easily turn a bard into a rogue. Especially since it's a subclass of Rogue... or it was in earlier editions. They don;t have subclasses anymore. If you play a bard for what it's meant to be, you're spending the (fewer) skill points on other things like more knowledges, performance, maybe a craft so the bard can paint or fix his lute. Rogues focus on stealth opening things that aren't for them to open, finding and disabling traps (including magical) so you and your buddies don't get incinerated. If you want to play powergamer and use a bard to make a rogue, feel free. But if you play each class for role-play aspect, each one has their own place... even a rogue.
Classes aren't "meant" to be played any certain way. Plus Bards have STEALTH as a class skill, so obviously they are meant to use that right? And the 4th level with spells is when the bard blows the rogue out of the water. Stealth for the bard and rogue with the same stats and ranks will be the same, before the bard uses spells.
Since you were saying that the rogue is taking the social skills cause he was meant to cause he has them all as class skills then the bard taking perform skill and then getting 2 socials off of that makes the bard getting 3 thematic and appropriate skills for the price of 1, and then at lv6 it gets to do that again. Since the rogue are obviously meant to be a face then the bard getting these for free count as real skill points and thus put the total skill points per level higher for the bard than the rogue.
And if the bard is taking craft to paint a lute than wouldn't a rogue be taking some sort of craft for his stuff? Like both have it as class skills so it's very strange to say that one should take it if the other doesn't.
Like had they never had the rogue class and instead listed bard class as the rogue class you'd be saying how clearly their role would be stealthing, even though their mechanics are the same, so stormwind fallacy is there, the name of my class doesn't decide the role my character is. Druids, wizards, bards all make good rogue characters, even in core.
If the rogues only use is dealing with (magical)traps by disabling them rather than using summons, dispel magic or some other solution to trigger it harmlessly then that's not a very useful role to be claiming.
Core "strength rogue" done right:
1 barbarian (half/human)
2 rogue
Call yourself a rogue. (Well, not when the cops are around.)
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 12
Cha 14
Use a polearm. First feat is Combat Reflexes, next is Power Attack. You have three AoOs per round at 1st level.
You're less of a rogue than the classic halfling with higher intelligence, dexterity, and charisma, but you're not quite so far behind the tanks in melee crunch ability, and it's a lot easier to get flanks when you have reach wiggle room.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are a new player, here's my advice-
The Pathfinder Core Rogue is widely considered to be the weakest class in the game. That doesn't mean you should not play one. It just means you should be aware that playing a rogue can be very frustrating. The things you envision your rogue being able to do will often not be backed up by mechanics.
If you want to get the very most out of your rogue, do your homework. There's quite a few fun rogue builds on the boards. Spend some time with the messageboard search function, check out the various rogue guides people have written, and steal ideas shamelessly.
More specifically-
You may find that Ranged combat works better for you than melee. It's the nature of the game. Melee rogues have a bad combination of fragility, low attack bonus, and the need to be very precisely placed to maximize their effectiveness. Archer rogues can get around pretty much all of that.
Invest in Craft Alchemy. Tanglefoot Bags will maintain their usefulness until around 10th level.
Invest in Craft Trap. Learn the trap rules well, and make re-usable, deployable traps. Shape the battlefield and out-think your enemies.
Invest in Use Magic Device. Stock up on scrolls, wands and other magical items. Think like batman. Have a utility belt.
It's exactly as much better as I said it was: a feat and a weapon enhancement in Core. I didn't get anything wrong let alone "flat-out" so. (Yes, the new unchained skills rules are nice too, but they are not indigenous to the new archetype, although it does enjoy more of them. -- But a well-built chained rogue makes those skill-checks anyway. Mine did.)Those are non-core.I know. You explicitly were trying to convince me that the Unchained Rogue is barely any better than the chained rogue. I was using those to point out that you're flat out wrong.
Strength rogues are the answer to most rogue woes in Core.
Said "woe" being "I don't do as much damage as full-BAB martials who I am sorely envious of, and thus I am feeling really inadequate". (Meanwhile, the martial with Cha 5 isn't crying because he has a subzero Diplomacy bonus. He just shrugs, because it goes with the territory of being awesome at what he is fabulous at.)
The actual solution for the damage-envious player is to play a tank if that's really interests them.
But the point is you don't need Agile with a Strength-based character.
The str 10, dex 20 halfling doesn't need it either.
For example, the aforementioned drooling swallow whole monster whose poisonous saliva makes your anemic rogue fortitude save whimper like a spanked child -- Know what's the best rogue tactic against it? Spring Attack (after UMD'ing Expeditious Retreat) while the the party barbarian has a readied Vital Strike set to pound on the flank. He (not you) eats any rebound, which is the way it should be given he has twice the hitpoints and +8 the fort save.
But Paizo will happily sell you a new archetype if you want to get yourself killed. They are, after all, in the business of selling books.
Why have 7 INT? That's pointlessly crippling your skill points, which let you be a Rogue.Core "strength rogue" done right:
1 barbarian (half/human)
2 rogueCall yourself a rogue. (Well, not when the cops are around.)
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 12
Cha 14
No, you just have fewer maxed skills. Probably about four, with the rest sprinkled around. Allowances have to be made if you want high numbers and str isn't going to be the dump stat.
You'll still be getting 6 skills per level, or twice that of the average BSF you're to emulate in a strength build. An ioun stone and a bump at 8th up that by 33% if you're feeling the pinch.
Why have 14 charisma?Because 15/14/14/14/12/7 is the most positive-bonus dense 20 point array. (One of those 14s was supposed to be a 15.) Those only two 20pt arrays that are better are 15/14/12/12/12/12 and 14/14/13/13/12/12. But they're very even spreads of butter over your toast. (15/14/12/12/12/12 is quite decent in a gnome bard.)
And if you're strength based, have 16 strength.
Or you could play a barbarian who rages to 22 at 1st level, that being a class that is designed for melee. The rogue is not. His job is to solve problems, open the door from other side after climbing in the 3rd story window, haggle with low-life scum while the paladin waits outside, survive ancillary damage (Evasion) in battles, and, on rare occasion, be the one PC smart enough to hide until the near-TPK has concluded and he can sneak a finger from every corpse and head back to town, thereby preventing "nonrecoverable character death".
99% of those, regrettably, will not be Core.The Pathfinder Core Rogue is widely considered to be the weakest class in the game. That doesn't mean you should not play one. It just means you should be aware that playing a rogue can be very frustrating. The things you envision your rogue being able to do will often not be backed up by mechanics.
If you want to get the very most out of your rogue, do your homework. There's quite a few fun rogue builds on the boards. Spend some time with the messageboard search function, check out the various rogue guides people have written, and steal ideas shamelessly.
You may find that Ranged combat works better for you than melee.
It is quite easy to do both in Core:
halfling 20pt
Str 11
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 14
1 fighter1 Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw
2 rogue1
3 rogue2 (finesse rogue) Improved Initiative
4 rogue3 ...raise dexterity, buy belt
5 rogue4 (combat trick: Point Blank Shot) Rapid Shot
This well-rounded, combat-oriented rogue has two attacks in melee or ranged combat by 5th, can swap weapons instantly, can use any martial weapon, can use quickdraw shields (not core, but I digress), is proficient in medium armor, and has saves better than most human PCs. He'll be +15 Stealth at 4th level.
Its not a feat and a weapon enhancement
its a feat
a weapon enhcancement
another feat for debilitating strike
another feat for the other options on debilitating strike
Another feat for the skill unlocks.
So thats.. twice as much feat as a typical rogue inside of PFS levels.
I played a chained rogue for three years through the worst PFS seasons, and never once felt suboptimal.
<sneaky avatar does that scoundrel grin>
I catered to the strengths of the class, and didn't try to jam the things it wasn't designed for which martial classes did much better out of the box. They had their areas of expertise, and I had mine.
I catered to the strengths of the class, and didn't try to jam the things it wasn't designed for which martial classes did much better out of the box. They had their areas of expertise, and I had mine.
The rogue has serious mechanical issues.
That issue is not that people don't know how to play.
I have never seen claims of better play fixing the rogues problems actually list anything specific enough to be actionable or justify the attitude that the problem is the other persons skill level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rogue has serious mechanical issues.I catered to the strengths of the class, and didn't try to jam the things it wasn't designed for which martial classes did much better out of the box. They had their areas of expertise, and I had mine.
At doing what? Melee combat?
<shrug>
That issue is not that people don't know how to play.
Sure it is. There is this class, that if you look right at it, does not have full bab or a strong fort-save, and is obviously skill-based, and seems intuitively designed for small characters (even if the iconic is this brainless elf shag-carpeted in daggers), halflings in particular. ...And the player proceeds to completely ignore all of that rather obvious information to plop a 16 or 18 in strength (at the expense of his other stats in point-buy), doesn't bother with UMD or stealth, dumps int or cha or both, and designs a melee that is in no way going to handle anything that a well-built fighter or barbarian can't cut down in one round. But those sneak-attack dice are doing the sparkly thing in the player's eyes...it's all they can see. They gotta be going for 'em every moment, all the time.
- Such failed will-save tactics have nothing to do with "mechanical issues" that might manifest beyond some point (say, 12th level, when the game rather quickly transforms into a pure caster show in which the only thing that keeps you alive is having the perfectly-tailored piece of defensive gear in every item slot.)
I saw bards get ripped in half in PFS just as quickly, but no one calls them underpowered because they have spells. -- Like that helped after they poked the monster for 15 and then it turned around and unloaded five attacks. Then it was a don't-know-how-to-play-bards problem, not a bard-problem. But rogue doesn't get the same consideration.
Heck, rangers and monks have decent fort-saves, and I saw them get ripped in half. Even saw barbarians get ripped in half. (Actually, I've seen more barbarians get ripped in half than any other class, but that's another story.)