Calistria faith role playing

[roguerouge]

So, I'm having trouble getting my head around this faith. I have a player who wants to be an inquisitor of Calistria. I get the sacred whore teaching sex ed and sexual healing: I can narrate that.

What I'm having problems with is how to play the revenge side. Is it just being a mean girl, using emotional violence to humiliate in revenge? I'm having trouble having that play out in a timely manner against NPCs at the table. I'm also having trouble seeing how to RP it without it edging the PC towards CE.

What do you do when RPing this faith at your tables?

[lemeres]

What kind of role are you serving in this campaign?

You could take the revenge element as a punitive thing, used to maintain a crude sense of 'justice'.

Going to the typical....'temple'... as a context- a customer ends up knocking one of the girl's tooth out- you get the pliers and take all of his teeth out in return. Make sure that everyone knows not to mess with your people.

So you could do a carrot and stick thing- if they play nice, you play nice in return. But if they mess with you, then you will do everything in your power to make sure they never even think about doing something like that again.

So, for a generic party as an inquisitor- offer the client (person offering the quest) full service in intelligence and general mercenary work. Be professional and congenial the entire time(I have an image of a calistria inquisitor edging towards spy/intel officer- you are likely doing something more public in nature, but I think this would still be an appropriate decorum). But the instant he tries to renege out of his end of the deal and not pay, you make him pay with a pound of flesh.

Remember- a wasp wears bright yellow so that everyone knows that it is stupid to get on its bad side.

[roguerouge]

lemeres wrote:

What kind of role are you serving in this campaign?

DM.

[lemeres]

roguerouge wrote:

lemeres wrote:

What kind of role are you serving in this campaign?

DM.

Ah, ok. So you control the context of this character and associated temples. Cool.

Well, again- I think that a valid way to play it is so that the revenge is used as a deterrent against anyone else messing with 'your people'. As such, it might lean towards flashy displays- humiliation might certainly be an element. Or it might be gruesome and bloody. But it has to leave a lasting impression- your acts of revenge are your yellow stripes- the warning to everyone.

This form may well take some forms of 'mean girl' style acts. I could certainly see you doing a 'Carrie' style 'prank' on someone in public to send the message.

EDIT- oh, so this is looking for advice to avoid going CE? ...a bit hard, since antipaladin is a valid worshipper type for this god. But I suppose you could lease yourself out as a mercenary for the downtrodden- someone that takes revenge for those that cannot take it themselves- and you would focus your work on taking revenge against the worst types of people- bandits, corrupt politicians, slavers, etc. Bounty hunter focused on how the crimes hurt the victims- that seems like a valid 'CG' revenge type.

[Bob Bob Bob]

It's the scottish national motto. "Nemo me impune lacessit", loosely translated to some version of "nobody hurts me with impunity". Revenge is just a twisted golden rule. Do unto others as they did unto you. This doesn't mean being mean unless that was the "harm" committed against you (or possibly the only way you have to fight back).

Now if you're wondering how an Inquisitor fits in, there's lots of ways. Maybe someone is taking their revenge too far. The target is dead so they're going after their family, or their extended family, or some other target so removed from the revenge that it has lost all meaning. Maybe because of the position of the target the person can't get revenge. A maid at the local lord's manor where the lord takes liberties with the help. She can't lose the job so that's where an outside helper comes in (curse of low blood flow?). Maybe they review how the church has helped with various revenges over the year. I mean, you can't rely on the church too much (then it's not you getting the revenge) but there's probably some things that are much easier for the church to get than ordinary citizens. I assume they have a great poison stock.

Unfortunately there's basically no way to deal with just revenge without edging towards Evil. Revenge is inherently quite self-centered, one person is putting their feelings above at least one other person, possibly more. You can couch it in terms of "justice" but that's not the only kind of revenge. It's basically the Paladin of Abadar problem. You want to help (get justice) but god says you have to charge (hurt people who don't deserve it). The solution is probably the same, outsource the problem to people who are better at it.

And yeah, if the church is doing the revenge it's probably huge, public, and spread by bards within the day. Depending on how far they need to send the message, of course. I imagine any threat against them is met with some variation of "Let me tell you about the last person who did that to us..." and maybe an "and we've made improvements since then".

[UnArcaneElection]

lemeres wrote:

{. . .}

So, for a generic party as an inquisitor- offer the client (person offering the quest) full service in intelligence and general mercenary work. Be professional and congenial the entire time(I have an image of a calistria inquisitor edging towards spy/intel officer- you are likely doing something more public in nature, but I think this would still be an appropriate decorum). But the instant he tries to renege out of his end of the deal and not pay, you make him pay with a pound of flesh.

Remember- a wasp wears bright yellow so that everyone knows that it is stupid to get on its bad side.

Problem is: This sounds more Lawful than Chaotic.

[lemeres]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

lemeres wrote:

{. . .}

So, for a generic party as an inquisitor- offer the client (person offering the quest) full service in intelligence and general mercenary work. Be professional and congenial the entire time(I have an image of a calistria inquisitor edging towards spy/intel officer- you are likely doing something more public in nature, but I think this would still be an appropriate decorum). But the instant he tries to renege out of his end of the deal and not pay, you make him pay with a pound of flesh.

Remember- a wasp wears bright yellow so that everyone knows that it is stupid to get on its bad side.

Problem is: This sounds more Lawful than Chaotic.

Perhaps, but it is hard for humans to be a system without any rules or order.

I tend to see chaotic as relying more on the personal connections and ability rather than upon large, shared systems. They are less likely to build large international organizations, form kingdoms, etc. And less likely to use systems made on someone else's terms- such as the court system.

so the difference here is that the chaotic character would be more likely to seek 'to matters into their own hands'.

This is particularly true of inquisitors- who are noted to be prone to taking actions that might be against their organization's general alignment in order to 'get the job done'. So if a LG character can torture people, why can't a CN person try to keep things in order and running smoothly?

[Sissyl]

Revenge is personal. It has to be. And lawful societies like the one we live in absolutely ABHORS personal revenge. Thus, they have smeared the concept of revenge with evil since forever.

This is obviously not what a Calistrian thinks. To them, it is not only your RIGHT to take revenge. It is also your DUTY. Revenge is divine, not because it just is, but because in a society where people revenge themselves BY DIVINE MANDATE, it is good policy to be a very good neighbor. I always assumed elven society had several legal allowances for revenge.

As for what form the revenge takes, that very much depends on the person taking it. A good person typically aims to teach someone a lesson, improving them in the process. They temper it with mercy, and avoid cruelty. An evil person uses cruelty and violence to breed fear. Both of these are valid by Calistria's viewpoint. As described, different temples tend to one of the three alignments.

[Mangenorn]

One thing to note. Human temples tend to be lust oriented. Elven temples tend to be essentially assassin's guilds which are revenge oriented.

Unless you're in Kyonin (assuming Golarion), there's not much of a point in getting too hung up on the revenge aspect.

[Coidzor]

roguerouge wrote:

So, I'm having trouble getting my head around this faith. I have a player who wants to be an inquisitor of Calistria. I get the sacred whore teaching sex ed and sexual healing: I can narrate that.

What I'm having problems with is how to play the revenge side. Is it just being a mean girl, using emotional violence to humiliate in revenge? I'm having trouble having that play out in a timely manner against NPCs at the table. I'm also having trouble seeing how to RP it without it edging the PC towards CE.

As I recall, there's a Calistrian spell that makes it so that you and your new lover are better able to kill your former lover for breaking up with you, or if you break up with them.

So, yes, this is one of those issues with Calistrians getting played to the fullest. Like how in D&D if you actually played Formians by their fluff, they'd go from LN to LE really, really quickly.

That or you have a Calistrian with something resembling a moral code so they're not murdering people willy-nilly.

[Adjoint]

Mangenorn wrote:

One thing to note. Human temples tend to be lust oriented. Elven temples tend to be essentially assassin's guilds which are revenge oriented.

Unless you're in Kyonin (assuming Golarion), there's not much of a point in getting too hung up on the revenge aspect.

Not exactly true. In Magnimar, City of Monuments, the local temple of Calistria functions as a brothel, but only to those deemed worthy of such service, and it also accept contracts to exact revenge on someone else's behalf:

Magnimar, City of Monuments, p. 23 wrote:

The church also offers its services to those who have been wronged, with Ayamyra (CN female elf cleric of Calistria 7), the church’s current mistress, personally handling many of these missions of revenge — she quite adores customizing punishments and retributions based on the acts of those she’s been contracted to seek revenge upon.

What is more important than race is the alignment of the temple:

Inner Sea Gods, p. 31 wrote:

The Savored Sting’s faith is as changeable as the goddess herself: each temple tends toward good, evil, or neutrality, and this influences the activities that take place there.

On the general topic:

Remember that Calistria is a goddess of vengeance, not justice. The world isn't a fair place. The right and wrong simply don't matter. You don't need any more justification for revenge than that someone hurt you in some way, and his reasons for doing so don't matter. The same applies to your clients (if you'll decide to accept them): if they had been wronged, and seek revenge, you are within your right to help them.

Be unforgiving. Passage of time or redemption does not exempt the target from your vengeance. It doesn't mean you need to kill everyone that had offended you, but they need to pay in some way. They remain a target for your revenge as long as you are not satisfied. It's up to you what it means in each case.

[parsimony]

Vengeance is just a matter of righting the balance. It is only natural. Lust isn't avoidable; it just the way things are. It's just like a Calistrian bargain; it's perfectly reasonable. Face it, elves are wise, and their goddess is the embodiment of reasonable and appropriate actions. People just don't appreciate this.

[UnArcaneElection]

Sissyl wrote:

Revenge is personal. It has to be. And lawful societies like the one we live in absolutely ABHORS personal revenge. Thus, they have smeared the concept of revenge with evil since forever.

{. . .}

I think an Asmodean or other Diabolist would disagree (at least secretly) with the middle part of this (although seeing no problem with the last part).

[Adjoint]

parsimony wrote:

Vengeance is just a matter of righting the balance.

Not for Calistria. Calistria doesn't care about balance or righting the wrong. For example, a villain whose evil plan was thwarted, has the same right to seek revenge.

For her, vengeance is a way to get a satisfaction after being wronged. It does't matter if it's appropriate to the offense, Calistria has no problems with disproprortionate retribution, it only matters whether the revenge is satisfying to the offended.

[Candi Payne]

Her acceptance of many forms of worship and variations of theology is just one of the many features that make the Savored Sting the greatest and most wonderful of all deities. Of course, sometimes we kill one another while "discussing" such doctrinal matters, but that is a very small price pay for the freedom to chose one's own path that Calistria offers.

Candi Payne, Paladin of Calistria

There's a great section on p. 31 of Inner Sea Gods that discusses the fact that a single city can have "multiple temples, which often vary wildly in their interpretations of Calistria's wisdom and sometimes engage in serious and bloody doctrinal disputes." Further on there is the line "The Savored Sting's faith is as changeable as the goddess herself."

Anyone who says that they KNOW how a Calistrian should behave or how Calistria thinks is missing the whole point of the goddess and her worship.

[Feza Savard]

"It also merits noting that the worst thing to fear is a chaste Calistrian."

Feza is a 'character assassin'. She roots out those secrets, takes notes when she's in a group or watching someone, and then discreetly lets interested parties know about the information for a variable fee, depending on her mood and how much it took to get the information.

[UnArcaneElection]

Candi Payne wrote:

{. . .}

Candi Payne, Paladin of Calistria
{. . .}

Paladin of Calistria? Must be some kind of trick . . . oh.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

parsimony wrote:

Vengeance is just a matter of righting the balance. It is only natural. Lust isn't avoidable; it just the way things are. It's just like a Calistrian bargain; it's perfectly reasonable. Face it, elves are wise, and their goddess is the embodiment of reasonable and appropriate actions. People just don't appreciate this.

The way I would approach it is; Calistrians are about regarding what you feel in your heart in the moment as the most important thing of all and best for everyone (and secondarily about believing that everyone else, or at least all right-thinking people, is/are/really should be the same way, deep down). The lust stuff is about acting on impulse with regard to someone attractive, regardless of in-that-worldview silly notions of love or fidelity to muddy the waters; the vengeance stuff fits as responding from your hurt feelings if someone hurts you without needing to think any justification through any further; and the treachery stuff fits as, of course what you are feeling right now is more important than any agreement you made yesterday or last year or five minutes ago, surely everyone can see that you feel completely different now. There's no particular need for a more complex philosophy to tie the various manifestations up, just that one axiom.

To me that is the direct opposite of, say, an Abadaran really believing that what's best for everyone is to think things through and figure out what serves everyone's interests, find an objectively best judgement which is clearly the right way to do it, and dismiss subjective feelings to the contrary as a trap or a temptation or at best a distraction. And again, believing that all right-thinking people are that way deep down. IME there are plenty of real human beings coming from either of those positions, so that is what would help me make characters emotionally drawn to and embedded in those faiths hang together - though the Abadaran perspective is much closer to what is intuitive to me personally.