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This thread has served its purpose and needs to end.
The math has been done, extensively, by multiple people. There is unquestionably a small discrepancy between solarians and other classe as far as saves are concerned.
Is this discrepancy balanced out by the advantages the solarian class has over other classes? This is very much a matter debate and opinion.
However, all the good arguments have been made for both sides of the issue. Most of the posts here are just rehashing concepts which were discussed several pages back.
Since this thread has grown so large, I think it's very safe to assume the developers have seen it. Dev responses on these forums are rare, so there's no point waiting around for an official response.
The issue has been brought to light, and all sides have been argued. Time to move on instead of wasting time repeating ourselves.
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your summary of the Solarion was a complaint that it can't be highest DPS and match the tank at tanking and match the skill monkeys with skills and still maintain amazing saves across the board
understand the class manYou need to understand the class, because you don't.
Highest DPS?
BY LESS THAN 10 POINTS PER HIT.
I'm so sick of people insinuating that the Solarian is some kind of Super DPS to justify the issues.
I'm capping that statement for a reason.
That is the end-difference between Solarian and Soldier DPS.
Less than 10 points per hit.
Less. Than. 10.
The maximum damage a Solarian can get is Weapon Code +4 (Photon Attunement) +10 Plasma Sheath +10 (Deadly Aim) +20 Weapon Specialization, +Strength
With a 26 Strength that's Weapon Damage + 52 Fire.
A Soldier can get Weapon Code + 1.5x Strength Bonus, +(2xNumber of Enemies within 4 CAR) + 10 (Deadly Aim) +20 Weapon Specialization.
With a 26 Strength this comes to a MINIMUM of Weapon Damage +44
If there are 5 enemies in the fight it is also Weapon Damage Code +52.
If there are 6 enemies it is Weapon Damage Code + 54
On top of that they get to attack twice off of a charge meaning the Soldier routinely will out-damage the Solarian.
So no. The Solarian isn't the highest damage in the game.
If the typical hit at level 20 is doing 100 damage, 10 damage per hit is a 10% change. Equally important is Flashing Strikes. Getting -3 to hit on 2 attacks and -5 to hit on 3 attacks is important. Combined that is roughly a 20% change in damage output. We can argue over whether that is signifcant or not. However, I would propose it is at least as signficant (if not more so) than a 10% (+2 stat points) shift in saving throws. You'll notice a +2 difference on a saving throw on 1 in 10 saving throws you make. I'd wager you would notice a 20% shift in damage roughly 1 in 5 enemies.
In general, Deadly Aim is on average a damage loss. Especially for full attacks. Given we now have the Alien Archive, we can do calculations vs a typical CR equal enemy as well as a boss situation (say APL+3). When compared across all levels, a pure damage Solarian does more damage than a pure damage melee Soldier.
I'm assuming maxed Strength, both have weapon focus, and the Solarian can use either a normal weapon or their Solar Weapon, which ever is better. Assume the enemy is an Alien Archive Combantant, CR = APL and a CR=APL+3.
Assuming full attacks against KAC just for simplicity. No unwieldy weapons.
Weapon, Solarian / Soldier
1st: +6, 9.5 / +6, 8.5
Vs CR: 9.5 average damage per round / 8.5 average damage per round
Vs CR+3: 4.75 dpr / 4.25 dpr
1d8 (4.5) +4 Strength + 1 Photon Mode / 1d8 (4.5) +4 Strength
Solarian does 11% more damage than Soldier
2nd: +7, 10.5 / +7, 8.5
Vs CR: 9.45 dpr / 7.65 dpr
Vs CR+3: 4.2 dpr / 3.4 dpr (this is worse than single attacking)
1d8 (4.5) +4 Strength + 1 Photon Mode + 1 Plasma Sheath / 1d8 (4.5) +4 Strength
Solarian does 23% more damage than Soldier
3rd: +9, 14.5 / +9, 14.5
Vs CR: 11.5 dpr / 11.5 dpr
Vs CR+3: 8.7 dpr / 8.7 dpr
1d8 (4.5) +5 Strength + 1 Photon Mode + 1 Plasma Sheath + 3 Level/ +5 Strength + 2 Melee Striker + 3 Level
Solarian and Soldier do the same damage
4th: +10, 17.5 / +10, 16.5
Vs CR: 15.75 dpr / 14.85 dpr
Vs CR+3: 10.5 dpr / 9.9 dpr
1d10 (5.5) +5 Strength + 1 Photon Mode + 2 Plasma Sheath + 4 Level /1d10 (5.5) +5 Strength + 2 Melee Striker + 4 Level
Solarian does 6.0% more damage
5th: +11, 18.5 / +11, 17.5
Vs CR: 16.65 dpr / 15.75 dpr
Vs CR+3: 11.1 dpr / 10.5 dpr
1d10 (5.5) +5 Strength + 1 Photon Mode + 2 Plasma Sheath + 5 Level / 1d10 (5.5) +5 Strength + 2 Melee Striker + 5 Level
Solarian does 5.7% more damage
6th: +12, 25.5 / +12, 18.5
Vs CR: 22.95 dpr / 16.65
Vs CR+3: 12.75 dpr / 9.25 dpr
2d6 (7) + 1d4 (2.5) +5 Strength + 2 Photon Mode + 3 Plasma Sheath + 6 Level / 1d10 (5.5) +5 Strength + 2 Melee Striker + 6 Level
Solarian does 37% more damage
7th: +14 (+1), 27.5 / +14, 25
Vs CR: 30.25 dpr / 25 dpr
Vs CR+3: 19.25 dpr / 15 dpr
2d6 (7) + 1d4 (2.5) +6 Strength + 2 Photon Mode + 3 Plasma Sheath + 7 Level / 2d8 (9) +6 Strength + 3 Melee Striker + 7 Level
Solarians get an effective +1 to hit on melee full attacks from Flashing Strikes
Solarian does 21% or 28% more damage.
8th: +15 (+1), 30.5 / +15, 27
Vs CR: 33.55 dpr / 27 dpr
Vs CR+3: 21.35 dpr / 16.2 dpr
3d6 (10.5) +6 Strength + 2 Photon Mode + 4 Plasma Sheath +8 Level / 4d4 (10) +6 Strength + 3 Melee Striker + 8 Level
Solarian does 29% or 36% more damage
9th: +16 (+1), 35 / +16, 29
Vs CR: 35 dpr / 26.1 dpr
Vs CR+3: 21 dpr / 14.5 dpr
4d6 (14) +6 Strength + 2 Photon Mode + 4 Plasma Sheath + 9 Level / 2d10 (11) +6 Strength + 3 Melee Striker + 9 Level
Solarians gain access to Solar Acceleration
Everyone buys haste circuits so they can move + full attack starting the 2nd turn and after
Solarian does 34% or 44% more damage
10th: +18 (+1), 40.5 / 36.5
Vs CR: 44.55 dpr / 36.5 dpr
Vs CR+3: 28.35 dpr / 21.9 dpr
3d10 (16.5) +7 Strength + 2 Photon Mode + 5 Plasma Sheath + 10 Level / 3d10 (16.5) +7 Strength + 3 Melee Striker + 10 Level
Solarian does 22% or 29% more damage
11th: +19 (+1), 43 / +19, 39
Vs CR: 47.3 dpr / 46.8 dpr
Vs CR+3: 30.1 dpr / 23.4 dpr (Soldier deals same amount attacking twice or three times)
4d8 (18) + 7 Strength + 2 Photon Mode + 5 Plasma Sheath + 11 Level / 4d8 (18) +7 Strength + 3 Melee Striker + 11 Level
Soldiers can now attack 3 times at -6 to hit. They can charge attack for 2 attacks at -4 on the first turn.
Solarian does 1% or 28% more damage
12th: +20 (+1), 49 / +20, 40
Vs CR: 49 dpr / 42 dpr
Vs CR+3: 34.3 dpr / 24 dpr (Soldier deals same amount attacking twice or three times)
6d6 (21) +7 Strength + 3 Photon Mode + 6 Plasma Sheath + 12 Level / 4d8 (18) +7 Strength + 3 Melee Striker + 12 Level
Solarian does 16% or 42% more damage
13th: +21 (+1), 53.5 / +21, 45.5
Vs CR: 64.2 dpr / 47.775 dpr
Vs CR+3: 40.125 / 27.3 dpr (Soldier deals the same amount attacking twice or three times)
7d6 (24.5) +7 Strength + 3 Photon Mode + 6 Plasma Sheath + 13 Level / 5d8 (22.5) +7 Strength + 3 Melee Striker + 13 Level
Solarian can now attack 3 times at -5 to hit.
Solarian does 34% or 46% more damage
14th: +23 (+1), 63.5 / +23, 57.5
Vs CR: 85.725 dpr / 69 dpr
Vs CR+3: 57.15 dpr / 43.125 dpr
9d6 (31.5) + 8 Strength + 3 Photon Mode + 7 Plasma Sheath +14 Level / 7d8 (31.5) +8 Strength + 4 Melee Striker + 14 Level
Solarian does 24% or 32% more damage
15th: +24 (+1), 68 / +24, 58.5
Vs CR: 91.8 dpr / 70.2 dpr
Vs CR+3: 61.2 dpr / 43.875 dpr
10d6 (35) + 8 Strength + 3 Photon Mode + 7 Plasma Sheath +15 Level / 7d8 (31.5) +8 Strength + 4 Melee Striker + 15 Level
Solarian does 30% more damage or 39% more damage
16th: +25 (+1), 79 / +25, 72
Vs CR: 106.65 dpr / 86.4 dpr
Vs CR+3: 71.1 dpr / 54 dpr
8d10 (44) + 8 Strength + 3 Photon Mode + 8 Plasma Sheath +16 Level / 8d10 (44) +8 Strength + 4 Melee Striker + 16 Level
Solarian does 22% or 31% more damage
17th: +26 (+1), 81.5 / +26, 76
Vs CR: 110.025 dpr / 91.2 dpr
Vs CR+3: 61.125 dpr / 45.6 dpr (Soldier deals the same amount attacking twice or three times)
13d6 (45.5) +8 Strength + 3 Photon Mode + 8 Plasma Sheath + 17 Level / 10d8 (45) +8 Strength + 4 Melee Striker + 17 Level + 2 Enemy
Soldier gains against the odds, +2 to damage per target within 10 feet - we assume one target here
Solarian does 20% more or 34% more damage
18th: +27 (+1), 93 / +27, 86
Vs CR: 125.55 dpr / 103.2 dpr
Vs CR+3: 69.75 dpr / 51.6 dpr (Soldier deals the same amount attacking twice or three times)
12d8 (54) + 8 Strength + 4 Photon Mode + 9 Plasma Sheath + 18 Level / 12d8 (54) + 8 Strength + 4 Melee Striker + 18 Level + 2 Enemy
Solarian does 21% or 35% more damage
19th: +28 (+1), 94 / +28, 87
Vs CR: 126.9 dpr / 104.4 dpr
Vs CR+3: 56.4 (Solarian does the same damage attacking 2 or 3 times) / 43.5 dpr(Soldiers does more damage attacking twice instead of 3 times)
12d8 (54) + 8 Strength + 4 Photon Mode + 9 Plasma Sheath + 19 Level / 12d8 (54) + 8 Strength + 4 Melee Striker + 19 Level + 2 Enemy
Solarian does 21% or 29% more damage.
20th: Capstones come into play and I don't know how to weight them. Does save or die from a Soldier outweigh damage? Does a 1st turn Solar Acceleration add more damage to the team than an individual character does in melee anyways?
From level 1 through 20 a damage focused Solarian will outdamage a damage focused Soldier. If I average the % over at each level (1-19 in this case) against CR equal to level, I get roughly 20% more damage (19.87%) over the entire game. Its a little higher against bosses. It would be a little less against lower level enemies.
So I will assert, with the math shown above, that Solarians built for maximum damage do in fact do the most damage in melee, and by a non-trivial amount.
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Stan hits the nail on the head.
Solarion outperforms the melee soldier in some regards, but also has disadvantages. This makes them viable alternatives to one another and that is the point.
I consider solarian one of the harder classes to get your head around because you get to mix and match abilities from a list of choices. Some combinations work better together than others. This also applies to technomancers, solarions, mechanics and envoys. Just like technomancers need to avoid taking too many abilities that spend RP or spell slots (otherwise they run out of juice and then can't use any of their hacks), solarians need to manage their stat allocation and revelations in light of each other. Even the the choice of whether or not to keep photon/graviton balance is part of that nuance. This is what makes the technomancer and the solarian my 2 favorite classes - you need to think and make choices about them.
If you don't like the balancing act and can't handle the finesse, just play a soldier. If you think the solarian is weak and has problems, just play a soldier. No one is forcing you to play a solarian. The last thing we need is a mary sue class that only matches or outperforms the alternative in every area (thus being absolutely better overall). Starfinder does not need a paladin.
So here is that melee soldier I had put together the other day, alongside the melee Solarian. Both of them took an int dip, both have great fortitude and iron will, and both have a ring of resistance. I didn't spend all of their cash, but they didn't have enough leftover for anything meaningful.
Kasatha Spacefarer Soldier 10
Speed: 30 ft, Initiative: +4
hp: 74, sp: 110, rp: 11
EAC: 27, KAC 30
Fort: +13, Ref: +7, Will: +12
Str 23, Dex 16, Con 19
Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Ranged Attacks: +17 Sintered Starknife (4d4+16)
Melee Attacks: +17 (+13/+13) Ultrathin Curveblade (3d10+19)
Skills: Athletics +19, Acrobatics +16, Survival +16, Physical Science +15
Feats: Weapon Focus (Advanced Melee), Step-Up, Step-Up and Strike, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Jet Dash, Skill Synergy (Athletics & Acrobatics), Skill Focus (Physical Science), Lunge, Deflect Projectiles
Class Abilities: Primary Fighting Style (Arcane Assailant), Rune of the Eldritch Knight, Secret of the Magi, Power of Legend, Gear Boosts (Melee Striker, Anchoring Arcana DC 21) Weapon Specialization, Secondary Fighting Style (Blitz), Rapid Response
Racial Abilities: Four-Armed, Desert Stride, Historian, Natural Grace
Theme Abilities: Theme Knowledge, Eager Dabbler
Gear:Ultrathin Curveblade, Sintered Starknife (Returining Fusion), Defiance Specialist Armor (Brown Force Field, Thermal Capacitor mkI) Armor, Personal Upgrades (Str +4, Con +2), Ring of Resistance +2
So maybe I'm missing something, but I opted for Arcane assailant over blitz. He's not as mobile as a blitz soldier, but he his enormous number of bonus feats means he has little trouble keeping an enemy in melee combat. He had plenty of room in there for a couple skillish feats as well. By keeping an elemental fusion on his weapon (from his class ability), he can use his Deflect Projectiles to defends against any type of attack, and once he closes to melee, he can use ancoring arcana to make sure that he's staying there, and even if the target makes its save, he has step up and strike if they try to get away. His average damage per strike is 35, the same as the Solarian when he has plasma sheath up.
Shobhad Priest (The Cycle) Solarian 10
Speed: 30 ft, Initiative: +2
hp: 76, sp: 90, rp: 10
EAC: 27, KAC 30
Fort: +11, Ref: +7, Will: +11
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14
Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 20
Ranged Attacks: +16 Sentinel Spear (2d6+11)
Melee Attacks: +17 (+14/+14) Solar Weapon (4d6+16)
Skills: Mysticism +16, Athletics +15, Diplomacy +17, Sense Motive +15
Feats: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Stand Still, Weapon Focus (Solar Weapon)
Class Abilities (DC 20): Skill Adept (Bluff & Culture), Solar Manifestation (Weapon - Bludgeoning), Stellar Mode (Stellar +2 dmg, Graviton +2 ref), Stellar Revelations (Plasma Sheathe +5, Dark Matter 4/6, Corona 2d6, Defy Gravity, Soul Furnace), Sidereal Influence +1d6 (Stellar – Diplomacy & Survival, Graviton – Sense Motive & Mysticism), Weapon Specialization, Flashing Strikes, Zenith Revelations (Supernova 11d6, Black Hole 20 ft, Miniature Star 5d6)
Racial Abilities: Four-Armed, Large, Shobhad Ferocity, Darkvision 60 ft, Swift, Weathered
Theme Abilities: Theme Knowledge, Mantle of the Clergy
Gear:Minor Gluon Crystal, Sentinel Spear (Returning Fusion), Defiance Specialist Armor (Thermal Capacitor mkI, Black Force Field, Ring of Resistance MkII, Personal Upgrades (Str +4, Cha +2),
So to rehash, this guy takes advantage of his racial reach and space to cover as many squares as he can with Corona (5 damage), tends to keep plasma sheathe up, and upon reaching zenith he can toss out miniature star for some extra damage and to try and keep enemies in melee more easily. I had to chose between step-up and stand still, and went with the latter, since his large size takes great advantage of it, and his reach helps him stay in melee more often. His average damage per strike is 30, with another +5 from plasma sheath, potentially 5 more from corona, and he can toss out a miniature star every three rounds.
So the soldier ends up with the same damage-per strike, WAY more hp, saves that are a couple points better, and comparable skills. Where does the Solarian come out ahead? He potentially outdamages the soldier when the right conditions are met, and, for one of them, this is relatively easy, giving him a reliable +5 damage. It's probably worth noting that this is also 5 points of damage that can affect several creatuers at once. He can use his sideral influence to boost his chosen skills higher than the soldier could achieve, but can't really touch what an envoy or operative can do, and he doesn't have any more skill options than the soldier.
Their power level, at level 10, I think is pretty close, except the soldier is substantially more durable. I think the bigger problem, though, is that I felt like I could have put this soldier together three or four different ways and be just as good, while this was pretty much the only build I could think of for Solarian that could keep up - they are EXTREMELY feat starved, and have little room for variance in stat distribution. More than anything, I would want to see something done for them that improves their viable build diversity. I still think that giving them a couple more skill points in some way would help to give them a little more flavor without tipping their power level, like, at all. The more I think about it, though, one of the thing that bugs me most is how critical several of the revelations are in being an effective combatant. I wish they had some alternatives, but ESPECIALLY wish that gravity was better. I am thinking about going back and rewriting parts of the class so they HAVE to swap between stances, but the graviton powers offer considerably more potent debuffs and movement powers, so the class would become a sort of stance changer that cycles between dealing damage and crowd control.
Oiy vey...Okay so here is an optimized Soldier build for melee:
01: 18/13/12/10/12/10
05: 19/15/14/10/14/10
10: 20/17/16/10/16/10
15: 21/18/16/12/16/12
20: 22/18/18/14/18/14
Your soldier build has 15 attribute points and your solarian build has 13. Though the point on how much easier it is to build a Soldier for better saves still stands.
How much bigger a deal this is to each individual is what is turning into the circular argument.
Oiy vey...Please go back and look at the Soldier build I gave. You must not have read it. I did a breakdown of those classes side by side showing that the Solarian fell behind in *every single category* very clearly.Please give me a link to which soldier build you intended me to look at.
I've read the whole thread, but there have been a number of builds posted to this thread. I'm not certain which one you meant. Evidently you didn't mean the one I quoted where someone else suggested a build and you stated your opinion on a more optimized array.
No kidding. There was a reason I asked for a link instead of repeating the whole post.
Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
Okay so here is an optimized Soldier build for melee:
01: 18/13/12/10/12/10
05: 19/15/14/10/14/10
10: 20/17/16/10/16/10<snip at over 10>
At 10:
PU: 24/16/18/10/16/10
SP: 110
Resolve: 12
Attack Bonus: +17
Saves: (assuming +2 Ring of Resistance)
Fort: +11 (7+4)
Reflex: +8 (3+2+3)
Will: +10 (7+3)-----
Compared to a Solarian that is raising all of the stats they need to raise to use all class abilities:
01: 16/13/10/10/10/14
05: 18/15/10/12/10/16
10: 19/17/12/12/12/16<snip at over 10>
At 10:
PU: 23/17/12/12/12/18
Resolve: +9 (the Soldier has 12)
Attack Bonus: +16 (the Soldier has +17)
Saves: (with +2 Ring of Resistance)
Fort: +8 (7+1) vs the Soldier's +11
Reflex: +8 (3+3+2) vs the Soldier's +8
Will: +8 (7+1) vs the Sildier's +10
So, going back to the list of complaints,
1. Get the most out of its class skills.
2. Maximize resolve.
3. Maintain the highest potential attack bonus.
4. Get the highest HP.
5. Maintain the highest possible DC's for class abilities.I can do this easily with every class BUT the Solarian.
You still haven't explained what you meant by not being able to get the most out of class skills.
You chose not to maximize Resolve. It is a valid choice, but the same has been said for Mechanic and Envoy to take two examples. Even for the Soldier class, a switch-hitter taking an appropriate race may choose to take two 16s to start. As your stat array shows, the difference in starting attributes only makes a difference of +1 modifier (not including Personal Upgrades) at 10th level.
You are correct that with Soldier you can maximize Resolve and Attack bonus without losing anything. Not so much with other classes though and you claimed every other class. How does the technomancer keep up with the Solarian attack bonus? Even the Exo-Cortex mechanic can't maximize attack and resolve.
Even with a lower attack bonus, your math (which you don't show) indicates that the Solarian does more damage per round than the soldier. If that is the case, is it really critical that the Solarian maximize attack bonus?
You claimed highest hit points. Assuming the same race, the hit points will be identical between Solarian and Soldier. Also, a Solarian could take Glow of Life to heal some of that.
Once again, you chose not to maximize Charisma.
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Let's look at what happens at Level 10, since that is a level most people should be able to eventually reach. Getting to level 20 is rare.
At level 10 assuming max ranks per level in a social skill (Intimidate if we are fully optimizing for Captain, but I generally prefer Diplomacy), a Solarian would have +16, +1d6 if they can utilize their Sidereal Influence. This can get them out of a battle. In combination with max ranks in piloting and Ace Pilot theme, it allows them to captain and (using your array) succeed at an untrained Engineering or Computers check to Encourage 85% of the time (+1 Int, +5 half pilot ranks). They would always succeed at Gunner or Pilot.
Soldier doesn't have any social skills as class skills, nor do they have something that would give them an Insight bonus. You would need to take Skill Synergy, so they would then get +1 Insight plus class skill. Soldier has enough feats that they can afford to, assuming you didn't use them elsewhere. Assuming your stat array and the feat, +14 so two behind.
At level 10, the Solarian can have the Zenith ability of Wormhole to teleport a group to another location on the battlefield every battle.
At level 10, even using the lower Cha you gave them it would be DC 10+5+4=19 to resist a class ability. If you've got 4 opponents, that is only about a 25% chance of all saving, 12% at 6th.
(.7^(number of opponents)) is the chance that all succeed.
1: .7
2: .49
3: .343
4: .2401
5: .16807
6: .117649
There are other revelations that can affect more than one creature. Based on what I've seen so far with scenarios and the quest, multiple opponents are common.
Personally, I agree that for a Solarian it generally doesn't make sense to use abilities that can only target one creature. Fortunately, there are abilities that target multiple creatures.
Are you serious?1. Get the most out of its class skills.
There are 2 class skills given to the Solarian that deal with skills. The first adds 2 skills to your skill list. The second adds a bonus to six different skills. You only have 4 skills per level by default. The DCs of skills and scaling in Starfinder mean that any skill with less than 3/4 ranks is useless and unable to succeed, anything with less than full skills is considered poor by the rulebook.
Thus, to get the benefits of 6 skill boosts, you need to raise 6 skills. This means you need 6 skill points per level. This means a minimum of a 14 Int.
Thank you for explaining.
I do not believe that every class should be able to put max ranks in all skills. Evidently you believe it is a problem if they can’t.
Mystic gets 6+Int ranks with 12 class skills, so not every class can max every class skill.
With Sidereal Influence, you only have 4 skills that you get the bonus on by 11th level. You don’t get to 6 skills until 19th level. If it is critical to your character that you max all of these, provided you didn’t dump Int you could do that off level bumps.
2. Maximize resolve.
You keep saying, "You chose not to max out charisma." That is because I can't max out charisma if...
3. Maintain the highest potential attack bonus.
Because in this case I need to max out strength...
Same problem exists on ExoCortex Mechanic (who can emulate full BAB). Only the Soldier can maximize Attack bonus and Resolve, and only for one attack type.
You have stated that the Solarian has higher Damage Per Round than Soldier. I don’t know what your assumptions were, but others have shown the same thing assuming Melee, Plasma Shealth, and other things.
Given that the Solarian isn’t lagging in damage capability and has other abilities, it would probably be unbalanced if they could maximize attack bonus and resolve.
4. Get the highest HP.
This requires me to try to reach an 18 Constitution by level 20.
False. Constitution doesn’t add to hit points, only Stamina.
Soldiers and Solarians of the same race will have the same HP.
5. Maintain the highest possible DC's for class abilities.
This calls for a high Charisma.
Show the DC is a problem for normal encounters with multiple opponents. Then show how it also isn’t a problem for all other classes since you stated you could easily do it on all other classes.
As I alluded to above, Mechanics can also have trouble maximizing everything you listed.
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I still think you are underestimating the usefulness of the revelations. They can change the battlefield tactics. I still say that the reason someone would play a Solarian is the revelations. If you ignore them, you are better off playing a different class.
I think you have proved your point of the absolute limits already.
But I doubt the perfect scores are in the expected simulated character performance.
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*scratches head*
And what exactly is the problem?
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I know it's partially tongue in cheek, but I believe the problem is that there is a feeling by some that an Optimized Solarian (as a full BAB class) should be able to be numerically identical to an optimized Soldier (as the only other full BAB class available right now).
Essentially Solarian should equal Soldier but with Revelations instead of Gear Boosts. And with just CRB that's impossible to achieve right now. Due to the MAD nature of the class, you have to choose to have a lower bonus in some capacity (Saves, Skills, DCs, To Hit/Damage, etc).
Lots of great math done all around to prove it, but for any of that to matter the core thesis has to be as a design goal the two classes should be balanced against each other, which...Who knows if the designers felt the same way and messed up the math, or if they felt Solarian's Revelation toolkit needed them to choose to take a hit somewhere to balance them out against a Soldier. Time and rulebooks will tell.
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It's not about making out "all skills" it's about being able to raise ranks in the 6 skills from sidreal influence to a high enough level that they can be used.DC scaling in Starfinder is such that at lower than 3/4 ranks in a skill you can't succeed at a check.
Example: a piloting DC at level 10 is: 10+20 or 30 to 15+20 or 35.
Using a Solarian build at Max ranks with a 17 dexterity at level 10 you have 1d20+10+3+3 or 1d20+16 to hit a 30. Meaning a natural 14. To hit 35 you need a 19.
If you only go 3/4 rank, IE 7 ranks, you have a +13 meaning you need a natural 17 to hit 30 and you *can't* hit 35.
That is how all skills in Starfinder work. Anything less than full ranks past a certain point automatically fail.
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Also, max attack and resolve can be gotten on Soldier, Operative, and other classes. I can match the Solarian attack *and* Max resolve on an Engineer.
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I'm getting very frustrated, I'll admit, to keep discussing this. I've, at this point, given out hard math, at one point putting the Solarian up against the Operative and Soldier in point for point.
You say "use your Revelations" and I *am* using them. Revelations aren't super powers. They're no better than Soldier fighting style bonuses.
You say the Solarian does higher damage, and I've shown you, at level 10 this amounts to exactly 3 damage per hit. At level 20 the Soldier can potentially hit harder.
I just don't know what else you want from me here. I've shown you the hard math. I've shown the potentials. I've compared it to every class and the Solarian always loses out in the end.
There is a problem here, that can, and should be, addressed by Paizo. Simple as that.
First off, I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated. I feel that way too when trying to express my points to you.
1) Regarding skills (sorry it's long winded)...
"it's about being able to raise ranks in the 6 skills from sidreal influence to a high enough level that they can be used"
I still feel this is a limit you place on yourself due to your previously stated preference on maximizing class features (from your guide thread). Let me explain this a bit further, please.
For me, I look at the 4 skills as the base as a limited resource and I want to spend them as efficiently as possible (I know, duh). I look at Sidereal Influence, and I see I have a class feature that can bolster a role of my choosing. Let's say I want to be the party face and no one else wishes to invest in CHA (so no CHA based Operative, no Envoy, no CHA based Mystic). The Solarian can make a competent Captain. So I elect to invest in Intimidate and Diplomacy. When Sidereal Influence comes around at 3rd level, I meditate for Photon influence with my skills, and basically stick to Diplomacy for levels 3 through 10 (I want to be the friendly face). My Graviton would likely be Stealth because I am also increasing my Dex. So here I am using my limited resources to play to my strengths of Charisma and Dexterity which I know I want to increase at ever level until 15th at least. I've probably invested skills heavily into Diplomacy and Intimidate ranking them every level. Depending on my whims, I'd probably rotate my other 2 points on Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, and Perception. Those are just personal preferences as I would rank other skills if necessary based on the other players at the table. Hopefully, someone else is playing a character with higher ranks in what is needed too.
At level 11, maybe I add Intimidate to my Photon list. As for Graviton, well... that's a tough choice. No matter how I build, I'm probably not investing too heavily into Wisdom by this point so Sense Motive or Mysticism aren't that attractive. I want to be better at influencing people and I plan to be using my Photon skills most of the time. The 2nd Graviton skill here could really be anything since I don't plan to use it much other than probably Stealth (selected already at 3rd). Who knows, maybe I pick Bluff so I can lie about why I was sneaking and maybe I picked it as one of my Skill Adept choices. With this build plan, I'm not focusing on Bluff but the +1D6 is better than nothing. Knowing me, I'd put at least 1 point in it for the 1 rank + 3 skilled + CHA and now I've got a +1D6. By level 11 that doesn't exactly make up for the missing 9 ranks of my potential, but it's better than nothing. Let's hope I'm not getting bused by even level mooks, *fingers crossed*
At 19th level, quite frankly, the 3rd Photon skill could be anything, but Culture is attractive since it offsets my low INT so I may plan towards that. Culture also has the benefit of having static difficulties so that's kinda nice. Either way, I don't expect to be amazing at my third Photon skill. My 3rd Graviton skill could be anything. The potential is nice, but I don't know what I would select for it since my character isn't really building towards WIS skills and Disguise isn't really doing it for me (plus I'd ideally want it as a class skill through Skill Adept - so it's a big maybe).
We could of course, reverse many of my skill decisions here if I decided I wanted Skill Focus: Intimidate (and I may want it anyway for my character). Then I would pick skills in Graviton that compliment my role like Sense Motive. Or I could play a Scout focusing on magical traps with Mysticism and Perception. That only needs 3 skill points and two of them are boosted by Sidereal Influence.
I'm making decisions to use my 4 skill points and pick Sidereal Influence to enhance what I am already doing. I do agree that Solarians are Skill Point starved, but I also feel I illustrate that you can in fact make hard decisions on how to spend 4 skill points and not raise INT. No, my character won't be able to pull off the same level of skill mastery as an Envoy or an Operative that focuses on it. I'd never expect it to, but that doesn't mean I can't make the character competent if I specialize. Though if my build decisions are going to be focused on ranking up skills that align with the attributes I am prioritizing (STR, DEX, CHA), then my skill choices are kinda limit anyway. I love playing characters with skills, but I really am ok with playing a 10 INT Solarian to focus more on CON with a side of WIS. Like my ideal layout looks like: STR
20, DEX 18, CON 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 20 with a plan to take Iron Will. Yeah, this character isn't for everyone, but if I am going to build a character in a vacuum, then this is what I would be happy to play.
2) Attack bonus...
Soldiers and Operatives are the only two classes in the game afforded the luxury of boosting their attack stat and resolve stat. Frankly, comparing anything to them seems a lot like comparing apples and oranges. The Solarian's Flashing Strikes feature grants them a more favorable chance to hit in melee. If you opted to have a 28 strength as a Solarian, you'd be even better when full attacking than a Soldier. As it currently stands, if a Soldier just wants even be competitive in chance to hit with the Solarian while full attacking, then the Soldier needs to start the game with an 18 strength. Flashing Strikes may not look like much, but in a game with few boosts to accuracy it is actually a big deal.
3) Saving throws, what started this entire thread...
I'm literally looking at a graph I made yesterday plotting all classes to level 10 using my own character creation philosophy I mentioned a page or two ago in this thread.
What happens is this...
The Solarian and Mechanic are just behind the Soldier for Fortitude. They are ahead of everyone else. This was with me building my Operative with 18 Dex, 14 Con, and pushing it to 20 by 10th level. The Fortitude save is still an 8 (Solarian/Mechanic have a 9 Fortitude save and 14 CON).
The Solarian and Soldier can be tied with Reflex if the Soldier is melee. Otherwise, the Solarian has the worst Reflex save of all the classes outside of Graviton mode in combat.
The Solarian is ahead of the Mechanic (the only class in the game with a poor Will save) for Will saves. The Envoy, Operative, Technomancer and Soldier tie for second best Will. The Mystic, not surprisingly blows everyone away.
So the Solarian is never leading the pack on saving throws but is only last place in Reflex if they are not using Graviton to boost it. So I don't think they are that bad on the saving throws. At least not as bad as it is made out to be. The gap can shift as the levels get higher, but for most players this will not be as big an issue.
I don't want to make this thread any longer showing the arrays, but if anyone wants me to send them privately, feel free to ask.
@HWalsh,
I wasn't trying to split hairs. You said Hit Points, so it was confusing me why you thought that Soldiers had an advantage there. Had you stated Stamina, there would have been no question in my mind that Soldiers have an advantage because they are considerably less MAD.
As for skills, the pilot skill checks are 10 + 2 * tier, 15 + 2 * tier, or (and there is exactly one of these) 20 + 2 * tier. The general rule for skills tends to be 15 + 1.5 * CR.
At higher levels, these tend to get too high for anyone except a specialist. At the highest level, even the specialists have problems. This is a general problem and is not specific to the Solarian class. You were making it sound like it was a problem unique to the Solarian class.
I also find some of your statements too broad. The latest example would be:
Also, max attack and resolve can be gotten on Soldier, Operative, and other classes. I can match the Solarian attack *and* Max resolve on an Engineer.
Soldier, no problem. I've stated as much.
Operative, I'm sorry but I don't see it. They can make people Flat-Footed (-2 AC, about equivalent to +2 to hit), but by level 10 they are 3 behind in BAB. They will be falling behind the Soldier and likely start lagging behind the Solarian. If you are looking at just attack bonus, how do they make up for the higher BAB?Engineer, I assume you mean Mechanic. You could easily do it with a ranged attacker using Ysoki, but please show it on a Vesk. I know that my Vesk Mechanic gave up attack bonus in order to max resolve.
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Revelations can be like super-powers when it comes to tactical battles. Zenith Revelations are most certainly super-powers. To the best of my knowledge, Soldiers don't have a way to create a linked gateway between two points like Wormhole does.
Some examples where just Gravity Boost would change your ability to deal with the enemy (please don't peek if you don't want tactical spoilers):
I'm sure there will continue to be situations like these in the scenarios, adventure paths, and modules for Starfinder. Situations where you will not necessarily be able to use your best attack form, or may take incoming fire before you can get to the opponents using normal methods.
It is things like this that make me say that the revelations are the reason that someone should pick Solarian rather than a different class. It isn't because of DPR, it is because it allows you to change the engagement to give yourself an advantage or at least partially negate the enemy advantage.
Black Hole can bring them down to you.
Does...OH&S not exist in Starfinder? If there is a railing, you'll run into the fact that Black Hole can't pull people through objects/if they encounter an object they'll stop.
Two things:
That scenario doesn’t state if there are railings. I can’t check the map right now, but unless they are clearly shown then I have to say there are no railings.
I am not sure that a railing would count as a solid object.
Solid objects do not block this ability, but any creature that runs into a solid object ceases moving closer to you.
Although they use this term in several places, they do not define it. I would personally rule that if it wouldn’t provide cover or other mechanical benefits, it shouldn’t be enough to prevent you from being moved past it.
I would not allow someone to drop a box of business cards and claim it as a solid object that should block Black Hole. It should take a certain size before it blocks movement.
[You've seemed to have missed the point, and in doing so proved my argument.
You talked about having to make hard choices, having to be careful...
Solarian is the only class that has to do this. No other class does. If one class must do something that no other class does then there is something wrong.
Build a Mystic with any Connection other than Star Shaman and without Ace Pilot. You will have to make some hard choices to make them fit any Starship position other than Captain.
Mechanic requires a hard choice at the very beginning, Exo Cortex or Drone. What you choose will have a big effect on how you build the character.
Every spellcasters has a lot of hard choices when choosing spells. It will always be the case that there are more good spells than a single caster can learn.
Every class has choices to make. I agree that some are easier than others, but that isn’t in itself a reason to condemn a class.
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The is the only class in Starfinder that more or less ignores a class ability.
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Did you know most Solarian builds are now trying to avoid any power with a Save DC? I do. Why? Because we can't afford to max Charisma. Most of us, to keep up, are desperately trying not to engage it, to the point of many Solarian builds having 15 resolve or less at level 20.
Yes, I know that people are avoiding it. I basically stated earlier that in my opinion you should avoid single target powers as a Solarian when I gave the probabilities.
Even with my own Solarian, I chose not to maximize Charisma. I’m going with a 16.
I am not claiming that Solarian is perfect. I wouldn’t claim that for any of the classes.
On the other hand, I do not find it nearly as flawed as you make it out to be.
I would not allow someone to drop a box of business cards and claim it as a solid object that should block Black Hole. It should take a certain size before it blocks movement.
Well, the point of railings is literally 'To keep people from going over the side' so I'd call them large enough to do it.
But yeah, I suppose if OH&S doesn't exist the Black Hole gets a little better but it's still a very weak power. I mean, if they were 50 up instead you'd not be able to get them with it but they'd still be in 'Pistol Fight Range' for everyone else.
Two things:
That scenario doesn’t state if there are railings. I can’t check the map right now, but unless they are clearly shown then I have to say there are no railings.
I am not sure that a railing would count as a solid object.
Solid objects do not block this ability, but any creature that runs into a solid object ceases moving closer to you.Although they use this term in several places, they do not define it. I would personally rule that if it wouldn’t provide cover or other mechanical benefits, it shouldn’t be enough to prevent you from being moved past it.
I would not allow someone to drop a box of business cards and claim it as a solid object that should block Black Hole. It should take a certain size before it blocks movement.
RAW, unfortunately, defines a solid object as a solid object. Namely anything between you and the target.
Black Hole is a pretty crap power in the end.
I am not arguing that Black Hole is generally a good power.
The rules define objects, but not solid objects. If we use the definition of solid as not having any holes or gaps in it, a railing is not a solid object but something like a security device would be.
GMs are supposed to use some sense when arbitrating rules. As I stated, I would not prevent someone from being pulled closer because there was a box of business cards or other relatively small object between them and the Solarian.
I would not allow someone to drop a box of business cards and claim it as a solid object that should block Black Hole. It should take a certain size before it blocks movement.Well, the point of railings is literally 'To keep people from going over the side' so I'd call them large enough to do it.
But yeah, I suppose if OH&S doesn't exist the Black Hole gets a little better but it's still a very weak power. I mean, if they were 50 up instead you'd not be able to get them with it but they'd still be in 'Pistol Fight Range' for everyone else.
A railing is to prevent people from accidentally going over. Many railings have large areas under them that you could easily slide under.
In the scenario mentioned, it isn’t defined if there is a railing.
If there is a railing, I would probably allow PCs and bosses to attempt the Athletics or Acrobatics check as per zero gravity since I am aware of those rules.
If a creature runs into a solid object during its movement, it must succeed at a DC 20 Acrobatics or Athletics check to safely stop its movement;
I probably would skip doing that for mooks, they already got a saving throw and are supposed to only be a speed bump.
I always try to interpret class features in a way that makes them usable. If there are multiple ways of reading something, I try to judge which is most balanced. If a FAQ comes out, I obey that since it should clarify the intent.
Black Hole is an example of a class feature that is already situational. Why take the most restrictive reading on something so as to make it nearly useless?.
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What did the Solarian's look like?
Oh right:
Fort: +15 (+12 +3)
Ref: +16 (+6 +5 +5)
Will: +15 (+12 +3)So, whereas the Solarian meets the minimum 16 in only 1... The Mystic makes it in only 2, and for bonus points, the Reflex Save is the least necessary save because it almost exclusively deals in damage
The 26/20/18/14/18/20 array you referenced above would be 16 Fort, 16 Ref, 16 Wis, which means they meat the "16 minimum" guideline you set for yourself in all three saves...
Black Hole would be better if it:
1. Didn't require a save to be moved, you should get moved save or not.
2. It should stick the target in place on a failed save.
A good comparison for the Solarian I feel would be the 4e Warden. It likewise has a 'Get you stuck with me' theme but it's thing is that it's very good at being sticky once the guy is with you. Black Hole, in comparison, pulls people in but doesn't keep them from leaving again (Which is kinda funny with the name. The Event Horizon of a black hole is kinda famous for 'You can't get away')
Being AOE doesn't really make it much better when you have no source of keeping them there and it took a standard action you could have used to actually fight them, so even if you do get multiple people in with you only the first person will suffer any issues (And even then, the retaliation is just a single AoO that doesn't stop them moving).
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Go make a Mechanic with a 16 int.
Cathulhu had a pretty cool Switch Hitter Exocortex Mechanic build going around that had Int at 13 and only went up from level increases. Certainly a combat focus at the expense of skills, resolve, and abilities that relied on class DCs (that sounds familiar!), but it did what it did well and in a flavorful way.
In fact, I would say if you dove into other classes with the same passion you have for Solarian, you'd find that's true in a lot of cases.
Having to sacrifice one part of the class if you want to be 'optimal' in another part of the class is NOT unique. I don't disagree the way Solarian is asked to do it IS somewhat unique (Being more MAD than any other base class and having to have at least one of your attributes lower than you'd ideally want isn't something other classes have to do.)
But other classes have things like feat taxes, being forced to invest all their class abilities in certain trees while ignoring other parts of the class, or just have to deal with being suboptimal at portions of the game (Soldiers and Skill Checks for example - There's no way to optimize a Soldier to be the best at any Skill. Period. Another class can always do it better if equally optimized, and in many cases even if not optimized.)
In your Mystic example above with the "craptastic band-aid" Solarian array, you skipped over the fact that a Mystic basically needs to take AT LEAST Longarms Proficiency and Versatile Specialization (and arguably Weapon Focus and/or Heavy Weapons) to be even relevant damage-wise, even with 24 Dex. The Solarian can drop 4 points out of Wisdom and put them in 18 Intelligence for 2 extra skill points (one of the "fixes" suggested above). Take Iron Will and Improved Iron Will with the 2 feats that the Mystic had to spend on Longarms, and you've got your +2 Will Save back to the magic "minimum 16" with the extra rider of Resolve Point to Save ability.
There is a lot of excellent theorycrafting and thought-provoking examples in this thread, but I think you risk coming to wrong conclusions about 'definitively proving the Solarian is broken' when you only look at "What is the Solarian giving up to be equal in power to another class?" and ignore "What is another class giving up to be equal in power to the Solarian?"
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Or they could go light armor with solar armor.
You don't have to have the utter maximum to be effective.
The Solarian can also give themselves and their allies +4 ac for free when graviton attuned.
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Well, the author of the "Balance is more than just a stat block..." thread sure did a long journey in a relatively short amount of time...
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If you think it's viable here is my challenge to you:
Go make a Soldier that doesn't bring Strength or Dex higher than a base 16.
Go make an Operative that doesn't bring Dex beyond a base 16.
Go make an Envoy who only has a base 16 Charisma.
Go make a Mystic with a 16 Wisdom.
Go make a Mechanic with a 16 int.
Go make a technomancer with a 16 int.
That's a 16 at level 20 mind you.
Just stating for the record, I haven't had a chance to play yet to test any of them, but I have built multiple Mechanics, an Envoy, an Operative, a Mystic, and a Soldier. And not a single one of them has a single base stat above 16. Because having higher than a 16 seems wasteful to me if you actually want a build that's more than a one-trick pony.
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You think Solarians don't have feat taxes?
Solarians have to take heavy armor to melee because they can't hyper pump Dex and Strength. If they go ranged they have to take Longarm proficiency and variable/weapon specialization as well.
If you're taking Heavy Armor, then you dont have to have 20 Dex.
Worried about your Reflex save? As stated above, the Reflex Save is the least necessary save because it almost exclusively deals in damage.
If you're going Ranged, suddenly you don't need to worry about pumping Strength, which seems to be a big point of contention. You're back down to pumping Dex and Key Stat like every other non-Soldier class.
At this point it seems like sacrifices any other class has to make aren't a big deal...Mystic has 13 Reflex or -1 To Hit compared to a Solarian? Soldier does 10 less damage per hit than Solarian? That's close enough.
A Solarian has 13 Reflex or -2 To Hit compared to a Soldier? That's an unacceptable choice that takes a character too far from an optimal value, and Solarian has serious problems which need to be addressed by Paizo.
Diving deep into Solarian (as the forums have basically forced me to do since launch given all the threads/guides/claims that true Solarians should start Blitz soldier :P) has been interesting from a perspective of game design and class comparison. I'd encourage you to take a break from Solarian for a bit and do some deep diving and building of your own on another class. I think you may be surprised at how many tough choices other classes make. It may not be readily apparent just comparing Stat Lines, but when you look at full builds they are definitely there.
Just as a start, compare the power of individual Gear Boosts + Primary Fighting Style bonuses (Soldier gets 10 of those through level 20) to individual Revelations (Solarian gets 10 of those through level 20.) I'm hard-pressed to find many cases where I wouldn't rather have a Revelation at any level.