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The party finds a demi-lich and via Knowledge check recognizes its Torpor characteristic. The melee'ers surround it and proceed to attack it. How would you handle initiative?
The Torpor description states (paraphrasing) that the creature only attacks if it is attacked or if its treasure is disturbed. The party has deliberately avoided bothering the demi-lich's stuff.
I could see four possibilities, but maybe there are others:
1) The PC's get a full round of attacks, as the creature would not react until it had been assaulted. Then initiative is rolled.
2) The PC's get the initiative, but the demi lich goes in the same round right after them.
3) The PC's get a surprise action, but initiative is otherwise rolled normally.
4) Initiative is rolled normally with no surprise.
Given a demi-lich's powers, a lot may ride on this decision. I didn't see any prior posts on this issue or official stances on it. Anyone GM'd a module with a demi lich have an opinion on this?
.^5
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I honestly have no idea what that means, Tacticslion.
Any other thoughts?
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From my time as a DM, I'd go with 3. The demilich is basically surprised (because it lacks any telepathy to know what the party's intent is), it's in Torpor, and if the party went through pains to avoid activating the demilich, give them this small reward. Besides, as soon as the demilich activates all hell will break loose, so one round won't make that big of a difference (in my opinion).
Hope that helps!
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I would think that it would go as follows:
Step 1. Everyone roll initiative including DemiLich
Step 2. Determine awareness - the party is aware of the demilich, and the demilich is aware of the party. It is simply choosing not to act, until they do something stupid. No surprise round.
Step 3. If the demilich goes before anyone attacks, it takes the ready action to attack the first person that disturbs it. Otherwise combat proceed normally. The demilich will be flatfooted until it has had it's first round in the initiative order.
So of your choices, I'd say 4.
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I'm in agreement with Agodeshalf, except I'd have the demilich just pass its turn entirely instead of readying an action.
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Best case scenario for the party:
Everyone readies actions against the demilich and everyone gets a standard action before the lich gets to act.
Another case:
No one readies, first person acts (essentially a surprise round) and damages the demilich. The lich awakens and everyone rolls initiative.
The party definitely should get a round of full attack actions against the demilich before it has a chance to act, because that would simply result in the average party killing a demilich without chance to react to the party.
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Everyone is aware and once the players declares intent to disturb the remains or treasure, and one character takes the action (let them decide who gets it)...
Step 1 - Roll initiative.
Step 2 - Follow initiative order.
No need for a surprise round. The party as a whole gets one action to disturb the remains or treasure and then it is game on.
I honestly have no idea what that means, Tacticslion.
It means, "I'm in a hurry, and there are half-a-dozen really interesting-sounding threads that I currently have no way of actually paying attention, or otherwise devoting the proper time/thought to them that it would take to make a genuine or coherent post... and this was the fifth one I was at." XD
That is, I was dotting this thread for perusal later.
Any other thoughts?
Yes! Crellan already gave us the actual quote, and Claxon and Olmac worded things along the lines I would have, were I attempting to parse it all out.
But, though it lacks a morale or tactics entry, there's this is the description:
Indeed, until disturbed, a demilich has only the vaguest awareness of intruders, and ignores their presence. Any attempt to steal the demilich’s possessions, disturb its remains, or harm its domain rouses the demilich’s slumbering mind, causing it to rise up in the air and voice its wail of the banshee before again settling to the ground. Should the interlopers relent, the skull returns to its torpor. But if they persist, the skull rises again, not to rest again until all in its sight have perished. Fortunately for intruders, demiliches never pursue those wise enough flee.
This seems to indicate that the demilich is uninterested in... anything, and unwilling to do much, but also immediately reactive to any attempt at anything.
To that end, I'd run it like Claxon suggests. The demilich has minor (at best) situational awareness, but is intimately aware of its stuff and itself. If everyone avoids the stuff and readies actions, there really isn't much the demilich could do until those readied actions are done. If no one readies, after the first attack, initiative activates immediately.
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Best case scenario for the party:
Everyone readies actions against the demilich and everyone gets a standard action before the lich gets to act.
Another case:
No one readies, first person acts (essentially a surprise round) and damages the demilich. The lich awakens and everyone rolls initiative.The party definitely shouldn't get a round of full attack actions against the demilich before it has a chance to act, because that would simply result in the average party killing a demilich without chance to react to the party.
Corrected. That should have said shouldn't to begin with. Sorry for any confusion.
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Thanks all for the input! Good food for thought.
A few folks brought up readied actions. However, my read of the rules is that you can't ready an action until initiative has been rolled and your turn comes up.
Regardless, it seems like most everyone agrees that the party should not get a full round of attacks to start things off, but that at least one PC should get an attack in before the Demi-Lich would do anything.
Thanks all for the input! Good food for thought.
*thumbs up thingie times two*
A few folks brought up readied actions. However, my read of the rules is that you can't ready an action until initiative has been rolled and your turn comes up.
I've been looking at the rules, but I don't really see this interpretation.
As I'm not sure what you're focusing on, I'll choose some concepts and describe how I read them, according to my understanding of these terms.
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Let's break this down!
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
I don't see anything in this that requires your initiative to be queued up - the requirement that it happens after your turn is over, but before your next has begun is simple - you don't have a turn, in particular, to start with (hence "being over") and it activates before any initiative result would come up.
Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
This actually seems to support a "doesn't matter if you're in initiative" interpretation. I'll get back to that, but let's look at the last one first.
Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Here's how the situation would work without initiative:
- 1) you're not in initiative- 2) party member "A" ("PMA") says, "When PMD nods at me, I'mma hit the skull with a hammer."
- 3) party member "B" ("PMB") says, "When PMA hits it with a hammer, I'mma hit it with a hammer, too."
- 4) party member "C" ("PMC") says, "When PMB hits it with a hammer, I'mma hit it with a hammer, too."
- 5) party member "D" ("PMD") says, "When PMC hits it with a hammer, I'mma hit it with a hammer, too." And then takes a move action to "nod" at PMA.
- 6) the readied actions all happen as-noted, and that's where everyone is in initiative, then the demilich happens as "last" in initiative
Here's how the situation would work without initiative:
- 1) you roll up initiative, assign everything, and everyone waits
- 2) party member "A" ("PMA") waits for his initiative count, then says, "When PMD nods at me, I'mma hit the skull with a hammer."
- 3) party member "B" ("PMB") waits for his initiative count, then says, "When PMA hits it with a hammer, I'mma hit it with a hammer, too."
- 4) party member "C" ("PMC") waits for his initiative count, then says, "When PMB hits it with a hammer, I'mma hit it with a hammer, too."
- 5) party member "D" ("PMD") waits for his initiative count, says, "When PMC hits it with a hammer, I'mma hit it with a hammer, too." And then takes a move action to "nod" at PMA.
- 6) the readied actions all happen as-noted, and (due to the rules) everyone's initiative changes to the above order, and then the demilich's turn happens as "last" in initiative after everything else
The only difference between these two scenarios is that you've taken the time to carefully roll up and assign initiative first. That's the incredibly bad downside about Torpor.
You could say that the demilich rises to attack immediately after "A" - that he readied his action to attack as soon as anyone attacks him - however, if that were the case, the dude wouldn't get an attack at all (see the interrupt thingie), which is valid, but looks to run afoul of the (non-rules) text of,
Indeed, until disturbed, a demilich has only the vaguest awareness of intruders, and ignores their presence.
Again, you could say the readied action goes off first, but the demilich doesn't have any real awareness.
Of course, if we're getting pedantic enough that each group seeks to take full advantage of rules minutia (such that a GM rules it's been readying an action as its standard action every round or whatever), that should mean that PCs in reach get AoO against it, either as it "rises into the air" (which it would do by its flight, and thus is either a move action, akin to standing up from prone), or as it "uses wail of banshee" (which is a standard action ]activating its SLA) or both (with Combat Reflexes).
That means: each of the PCs get that one standard attack off anyway (unless they get more). Ruling it that way may be more to your preference of interpretation. And maybe that plus the readied actions thing - I'unno, it's your game. That's the cool part about being GM! :D
Regardless, it seems like most everyone agrees that the party should not get a full round of attacks to start things off, but that at least one PC should get an attack in before the Demi-Lich would do anything.
That's about correct! (But there seem to be a large number of rules in play that allow more!) XD
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You can't ready an action outside of combat, since "ready an action" is one of the actions you can take *in* combat. When combat begins, all combatants roll for initiative. Then surprise is resolved. The only way that the demilich gets to interrupt the first attack is if it is first in the initiative order.
Say the order is
player A
player B
Demi Lich
player C
A goes, attacking flat footed demilich, and pisses off the demilich. It still doesn't go yet as it isn't it's turn. B goes attacking flat footed lich, and then the demilich gets to go, and can attack C flat footed. or A or B normally.
Only if the Demilich goes first in the initiative order, could it in principle ready an action to attack the first person. Then it would interrupt who ever attacked it. Or it could just pass, but then they would all get to attack it until it's next turn which seems wrong.
Would you allow the mage to stand behind the fighter who is bashing down the door to take a readied action to fire magic missile at the first target he sees behind the door. Allowing him to have an attack outside of initiative order and surprise? You can't determine surprise without initiative order and appropriate awareness checks. Readied actions need to be done *in* combat, as part of the combat sequence. But maybe I've just read it wrong.
Yeah, Readying an Action is and should be exclusively an in-combat thing.
I learned this lesson as a GM when my players kept readying actions before they opened doors in dungeons whenever they knew or thought something was on the other side. It made combat insanely lopsided, because of the initiative consequences.The game is definitely not supposed to be played that way.
So you don't think a party of seasoned adventurers should be able to prepare themselves to go through a door? Preparing to take actions?
Those saying it's not allowed in the rules are technically correct, but if you're limiting them to a standard action it should be fine.
Melee can't attack (probably) because they're not adjacent to an enemy, ranged will only get one attack. It's mostly spell casters you have to worry about. As usual.
Haven't looked, but I'm wondering if there isn't a FAQ or Senior Paizo wonk weigh-in on the Ready-Action-Before-Initiative issue.
Looking at the text Tacticslion cited, I feel like the rules do mean for readied actions to only be used after initiative is rolled. There are several references to how readying an action causes one's initiative placement to change. Implicit in that IMO is that you have to be in initiative to ready an action.
Of course, your table may vary and I do agree with Claxon that there is a certain verisimilitude to allowing pre-initiative readied actions. That said, my personal experience with allowing pre-initiative readied actions has been very much like LoudKids: lopsided combats with a heavy (and in my mind unintended) advantage to the PC's...and that was only with readied standard actions. My table doesn't allow readied actions out of initiative as a result.
It wouldn't be easy for them to give a clear rule on the subject. When can you take readied actions? When you're in initiative. When do you roll initiative? When combat starts. When does combat start? When you roll initiative. Or, when any PC or NPC decides they want to start a combat. Or when the GM says so.
You think it's not broken because it's only a standard, but then somebody takes Overwatch Style.
The best they can do is two attacks as a standard when readying.
The option to ready 4 attacks is a full round action.
While 2 attacks as a readied action is good, they did have to invest limited resources on it so I don't really see it as a problem.
As for not being able to ready outside of initiative...I'm admit it's technically correct. But it really doesn't make sense from a in character point of view?
Just because combat hasn't officially started I can't ready an action to attack anyone behind the door when my friend opens it?
Seems silly.
But I also understand the view point that you don't want to let your party constantly walk around with a readied action to attack someone as soon as they come into view.
This is why you have a GM who says "Yes it makes sense to ready in this situation or no it doesn't make sense".
I once used magic to fabricate a bucket, put it over a demilich, stone shaped a hole in the wall, put the demilich-in-a-bucket in the hole, and stone shaped it shut. Easy peasy. /grin