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You can draw a weapon as part of a movement provided you have a BAB of at least one. If I'm mounted, sheathe my lance (PC move action) and my mount moves, can I draw another weapon as part of the movement? The draw isn't a move action, so it's not taking 2 move actions in one turn.
Little foggy here, can anyone clarify?
As I understand, when you move while mounted, both you and the mount spend a move action. That's why, if your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can make only a single attack.
So yes, you can draw a weapon while mount moves, but if you've sheathed a lance before, that will be the second move action this turn you're taking.
My understanding is the same as Adjoint.
Action 1
Mount moves
Rider sheathes lance as move action
Action 2
Rider draws weapon as move action
Mount takes 2nd action, either move or standard
I'd be curious if other folks agree, or not, with this interpretation.
Action 1
Mount moves
Rider sheathes lance as move actionAction 2
Rider draws weapon as move action
Mount takes 2nd action, either move or standard
As I understand, when mount moves, the rider has to spend his own move action to move with it. So it would look like that:
Action 1
Rider sheathes a lance as a move action
Mount does something that doesn't involve movement (e.g. attack) or does nothing, saving its action for later
Action 2
Mount moves
Rider moves with the mount, during this movement he draws another weapon
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The only time you and the mount spend the same action is when charging. If the mount moves you still get your full complement of actions. You can even make a full attack so long as it is ranged.
As for drawing as part of a move action it, you can only do it as part of your action. If you are in/on a moving wagon you do not get to draw a weapon when it moves, same with a mount.
As I understand, when mount moves, the rider has to spend his own move action to move with it. So it would look like that:Action 1
Rider sheathes a lance as a move action
Mount does something that doesn't involve movement (e.g. attack) or does nothing, saving its action for laterAction 2
Mount moves
Rider moves with the mount, during this movement he draws another weapon
I don't understand why the mount couldn't move during Action 1 while the rider is sheathing his lance. Sheathing the weapon is the rider's move action that takes place simultaneously with the mount's move. Doing this is similar to a mounted archer or spell caster who attacks/casts a spell while his/her mount is moving (except, of course, an attack or spell casting is a standard rather than a move action).
Assuming the mount is combat trained, both Guide with Knees and Fight with Combat-Trained Mount are free actions.
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Action 1
Mount moves
Rider sheathes lance as move actionAction 2
Rider draws weapon as move action
Mount takes 2nd action, either move or standardAs I understand, when mount moves, the rider has to spend his own move action to move with it.
That is incorrect. The mount moves as the rider directs but uses its own action to do so. The only time they must both spend concurrent actions is when performing a mounted charge, which requires both the rider and mount to spend a move action.
Since the rider is not using his own action to move, he would need to spend a move action to draw a weapon, which would still allow you to have the mount double move while you draw a weapon and then attack at the end of the movement.
Action 1
Rider sheathes a lance as a move action
Mount does something that doesn't involve movement (e.g. attack) or does nothing, saving its action for later
Note that commanding a mount to attack requires the Handle Animal skill. This would only work if the mount is an animal companion (such as a druid's pet or cavalier's mount) where you can command the mount to attack as a free action. And as previously mentioned, you don't need to spend your move action when simply moving the mount, since that's covered by the mounted combat rules.
Since the rider is not using his own action to move, he would need to spend a move action to draw a weapon, which would still allow you to have the mount double move while you draw a weapon and then attack at the end of the movement.
I have to very strongly disagree with this interpretation, and I base my position on ...
"When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted."
The key sentence is the third one "... you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacks ..." Thus, I don't think you can do this:
Action 1
Mount moves
Rider sheathes lance
Action 2
Mount moves
Rider draws new weapon
Action 3
Rider attacks
There is no Action 3 for the rider/mount combo, and there can be no attack before Action 3 as the mount as not yet reached the target.
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Since the rider is not using his own action to move, he would need to spend a move action to draw a weapon, which would still allow you to have the mount double move while you draw a weapon and then attack at the end of the movement.I have to very strongly disagree with this interpretation, and I base my position on ...
"When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted."
The key sentence is the third one "... you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacks ..." Thus, I don't think you can do this:
Action 1
Mount moves
Rider sheathes lanceAction 2
Mount moves
Rider draws new weaponAction 3
Rider attacksThere is no Action 3 for the rider/mount combo, and there can be no attack before Action 3 as the mount as not yet reached the target.
Nothing you posted disagrees with what I said. You can't attack before the mount reaches its destination, and what you listed doesn't work, but it doesn't work because it involves two move actions on the rider's part, and he doesn't have the action economy for that. You added a step that I never mentioned, sheathing a previous weapon. I would simply drop it (a free action), or use the weapon in hand. You could still draw a weapon and attack while the mount double moves, or even draw a weapon and attack while the mount moves and attacks as long as you have the ability to command it to attack as a free action with the Handle Animal skill, such as if it's an animal companion.
Ssalarn,
You were correct in what you wrote, (big surprise on an action economy question)
HOWEVER
All previous posts cited both a sheathing lance move action and a draw weapon move action. You just left off the sheathing action without noting it. This made it seem like you were arguing that both rider move actions could be done in the round. If you had noted that the rider could drop the lance as a free action, and that would make the rest workable, that would have prevented the confusion.
Let me give an example where the rider has his/her weapon in hand at the start of the round and which is not a charge.
Action 1
Mount moves
Rider could do something
Action 2
Mount moves
Rider could do something
If at the end of Action 2, the Rider is within melee range of a target, he/she can not attack because he/she has taken all their actions for the turn riding the mount into position.
The rider can no more take an attack after riding a mount that has just taken a double move to get into position, than the rider could take an attack if he/she had been the one taking the double move.
Let me give an example where the rider has his/her weapon in hand at the start of the round and which is not a charge.
Action 1
Mount moves
Rider could do somethingAction 2
Mount moves
Rider could do somethingIf at the end of Action 2, the Rider is within melee range of a target, he/she can not attack because he/she has taken all their actions for the turn riding the mount into position.
The rider can no more take an attack after riding a mount that has just taken a double move to get into position, than the rider could take an attack if he/she had been the one taking the double move.
Poorly stated. You should identify what KIND of action the rider is taking.
I failed to follow your double move logic train with info given, but without you identifying what action types are being taken, there is no answer we can give you.
Poorly stated. You should identify what KIND of action the rider is taking.
I failed to follow your double move logic train with info given, but without you identifying what action types are being taken, there is no answer we can give you.
I would argue that even if the rider is doing nothing during each of the actions that the mount moves, the rider could not attack after the mount has made a double move.
Allowing the rider to do so would essentially be granting the rider a third action during the round.
Time is passing as the mount moves. Each move action of the mount takes half a round. Once the mount has completed two move actions, a full round has passed, and there is no time for the rider to take an attack.
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Poorly stated. You should identify what KIND of action the rider is taking.
I failed to follow your double move logic train with info given, but without you identifying what action types are being taken, there is no answer we can give you.I would argue that even if the rider is doing nothing during each of the actions that the mount moves, the rider could not attack after the mount has made a double move.
Allowing the rider to do so would essentially be granting the rider a third action during the round.
Time is passing as the mount moves. Each move action of the mount takes half a round. Once the mount has completed two move actions, a full round has passed, and there is no time for the rider to take an attack.
This is the Rules Forum and what you're stating is not how it works according to the rules. It's fine if you want to treat it that way in your games, but don't present that as how the game actually works.
This is the Rules Forum and what you're stating is not how it works according to the rules. It's fine if you want to treat it that way in your games, but don't present that as how the game actually works.
Where in the rules does it say that the rider can make an attack after a mount has made a non-charge double move?
So we all agree then :
Action 1 :
Mount double move toward an opponent, a ride check is needed. ( Let's assume its succesful. )
Player can sheathes lance and draw melee weapon.Action 2 :
Mount double move again, (Ride check again)
The player can chose : Attack, this make the action a charge.
or not attack and he can't attack when he's in melee range this turn.However, if the weapon was a range weapon, let's say a bow.
Action 2 will be :
Mount double move again, (Ride check again)
The player make a range attack. (Not sure if there'S penalty or not)
I would mostly agree with all of this.
The only way that a rider can attack after a mount has double moved is if it is a charge.
I'm not sure if the following rule from Movement During a Charge ...
"If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1."
... applies to the rider of a charging mount or not. I would say yes, because the rider is an active participant in the charge, urging on his/her mount, etc.
When you make a ranged while your mount is taking a double move, you take a -4 penalty.
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This is the Rules Forum and what you're stating is not how it works according to the rules. It's fine if you want to treat it that way in your games, but don't present that as how the game actually works.Where in the rules does it say that the rider can make an attack after a mount has made a non-charge double move?
Where does it day that the rider doesn't get his standard action after his mount used it's 2 move actions?
Everyone has a Standard action, a Move action, and a Swift action each turn. You can trade down a standard for a second move action. Mounted rules say that you direct your mount to move and it uses its action to move.
So the mount can use its 2 move actions on your turn. You still haven't used your standard action and can attack.
The rules are clear on the matter.
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You cannot double move as a charge action. a charge is a special action that gives you extra movement. You must end you movement in front of or adjacent to the target of your charge unless you have the ride by attack feat then you may attack your target as you pass by and move up to the distance of your charge movement.
You can draw a weapon as part of a charge if your bab is 1 or greater.
How do you sheathes a lance? a lance extends several feet beyond your mounts head. you could discard a lance as a free action and draw another weapon.
One thing that Pathfinder does not really take into account is a lance is shattered most times if it hits its target. [this is not covered by the rules]
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Straight from the mounted combat section of the CRB:
"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack."
and
"You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally."
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Ssalarn,
You were correct in what you wrote, (big surprise on an action economy question)
HOWEVER
All previous posts cited both a sheathing lance move action and a draw weapon move action. You just left off the sheathing action without noting it. This made it seem like you were arguing that both rider move actions could be done in the round. If you had noted that the rider could drop the lance as a free action, and that would make the rest workable, that would have prevented the confusion.
Ah, my bad, should have probably done an action economy break-down to account for the full spread then, for clarity's sake.
This is the Rules Forum and what you're stating is not how it works according to the rules. It's fine if you want to treat it that way in your games, but don't present that as how the game actually works.Where in the rules does it say that the rider can make an attack after a mount has made a non-charge double move?Where does it day that the rider doesn't get his standard action after his mount used it's 2 move actions?
Everyone has a Standard action, a Move action, and a Swift action each turn. You can trade down a standard for a second move action. Mounted rules say that you direct your mount to move and it uses its action to move.
So the mount can use its 2 move actions on your turn. You still haven't used your standard action and can attack.
The rules are clear on the matter.
Yep. For all that there are some very unclear rules in mounted combat, the distribution of actions is clear that the mount is using their actions to move, and the only limitations on the rider as far as attacks go is that if the mount moves more than 5 ft. the rider is limited to a single attack action (though there are feats like Mounted Skirmisher which can override even that limitation within the first move increment). Also the FAQ limitation that it requires a charge action from both the rider and mount to perform a "mounted charge" as referenced in feats like Spirited Charge, but that's not necessarily the same issue as simply having the mount double move while drawing a weapon and then attacking at the end of the movement. If you're performing a mounted charge it's even more advantageous to the rider since they can draw a weapon as part of the charge option as long as they have at least BAB +1.
Regarding "sheathing" a lance, you're performing whatever action is necessary to stow the weapon, which may not be a proper sheathe like you'd use for a sword but could be a saddle holster or whatever kind of apparatus is appropriate to the weapon in question.
I think the text of the rules for firing ranged weapons and casting spells while mounted is instructive.
In both cases, if the mount double moves, your firing or casting is affected by the mount's movement, and you either suffer a penalty to hit or have to make a concentration check. The rules do not allow you to do the following:
Action 1
Mount moves
You do nothing
Action 2
Mount moves
You do nothing
Action 3
Mount is out of actions and does nothing
You take a standard action to cast a spell or fire a ranged weapon.
With spells and ranged weapons, you are clearly not allowed to wait and take your actions after your mount has moved, and by implication, I think the same would apply to melee attacks and other sorts of actions.
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I think the text of the rules for firing ranged weapons and casting spells while mounted is instructive.
In both cases, if the mount double moves, your firing or casting is affected by the mount's movement, and you either suffer a penalty to hit or have to make a concentration check. The rules do not allow you to do the following:
Action 1
Mount moves
You do nothingAction 2
Mount moves
You do nothingAction 3
Mount is out of actions and does nothing
You take a standard action to cast a spell or fire a ranged weapon.With spells and ranged weapons, you are clearly not allowed to wait and take your actions after your mount has moved, and by implication, I think the same would apply to melee attacks and other sorts of actions.
The rules don't say anything about not being able to make a melee attack after your mount double moves. You're making up rulings that make more sense to you, but aren't supported by the rules at all.
As written the rules support what I said and not what you keep trying to argue. You're incorrect unless you can find somewhere the rules specifically say that you lose your standard action when your mount double moves or otherwise can't make a melee attack.
The rules don't say anything about not being able to make a melee attack after your mount double moves. You're making up rulings that make more sense to you, but aren't supported by the rules at all.
As written the rules support what I said and not what you keep trying to argue. You're incorrect unless you can find somewhere the rules specifically say that you lose your standard action when your mount double moves or otherwise can't make a melee attack.
I could turn this argument around and ask, where do the rules say that you're allowed an additional action after the mount you are riding has taken two actions?
And if you're allowed to take a standard action melee attack after your mount has double moved but not allowed to cast a spell or fire a ranged weapon as a standard action, then which of the Standard Actions from Table 8-2: Actions in Combat is one allowed to undertake after one's mount has double moved?
I do think the mounted combat rules are a huge mess, and I've seen them frequently abused (or at least what I would argue is abuse). I would acknowledge that we're in a situation where there are multiple plausible, and sometimes contradictory, rules interpretations. For whatever reason, Paizo seems to have little or no interest in resolving these issues. I dearly wish we would get a Player's Companion or something similar that clearly and explicitly laid out the rules for mounted combat.
I think Jurassic is right, I have found nothing that forbid an attack at the end of the double mouvement for the horse.
OK, if I have take no action while my mount double moves, can I then fast dismount as a free action and then take a double move on foot? There doesn't appear to be anything in the rules forbidding this but I think most people would agree that this clearly goes against the spirit of action economy.
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Right here:
I could turn this argument around and ask, where do the rules say that you're allowed an additional action after the mount you are riding has taken two actions?
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."
You haven't used any of your actions for your mount to move twice so you still have them left.
And if you're allowed to take a standard action melee attack after your mount has double moved but not allowed to cast a spell or fire a ranged weapon as a standard action, then which of the Standard Actions from Table 8-2: Actions in Combat is one allowed to undertake after one's mount has double moved?That's also spelled out quite clearly:
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.
So you're allowed any action that you have the actions left for and isn't more than one melee attack.
The Mounted Combat Rules are unclear or vague in plenty of parts, but not here.
So, would it be your position that that ...
1) A melee attack is a unique form of action that can be taken after a mount has double moved, and no other sorts of move or standard actions can be taken by a rider after his/her mount has double moved.
or
2) Spell casting and ranged weapon attacks are unique forms of actions that can not be undertaken by a rider after his/her mount has moved, and that any and all other standard and/or move actions can be taken by a rider after his/her mount has moved.
That's also spelled out quite clearly:If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.So you're allowed any action that you have the actions left for and isn't more than one melee attack.
The Mounted Combat Rules are unclear or vague in plenty of parts, but not here.
I think they are unclear here and the line "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." can easily be read as "If you mount moves more than 5 feet, you can at best make just one single melee attack." There is nothing in the line you quote that guarantees a rider can make an attack after his/her mount makes any sort of move.
I'm going to sign off from this now, because we're clearly going around in circles. For what it's worth, my argument really isn't with anyone who has posted here, it's with Paizo which has let this state of affairs arise.
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I think they are unclear here and the line "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." can easily be read as "If you mount moves more than 5 feet, you can at best make just one single melee attack."
Nope, it does not say that. You can tell because you had to add and change words to create that sentence. You're stripping away context to try and twist a sentence into saying something it doesn't say to make a point. The full rules for mounted combat are-
"Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally."
The limitation is specific to the number of melee attacks you can take. You're trying to infer what the rules should be through extrapolation, but that's not how Pathfinder or game rules in general work; game mechanics do exactly what they say they do. You can't move more than 5 ft. while mounted and make more than one melee attack. Ranged attacks and spells are not similarly limited, and ranged attacks are specifically called out in how they function and are affected by various movement combinations. You can have your mount move and then full attack without penalty. You can have your mount double move and full attack with a penalty. Other action economy options remain unaffected.