Ladies/Gents,
Curious how the masses might interpret Warpriest/Fighter multiclassing interacting with the "Advanced Armor Training" feat, specifically for the "Armor Specialization" ability.
Advanced Armor Training: You are specially trained to use your armor proficiencies in new ways.
Prerequisite(s): Armor Training class feature, fighter level 3rd.
Benefit(s): Select one advanced armor training option.
The option I'm looking at is Armor Specialization:
Armor Specialization: Armor Specialization (Ex): The fighter selects one specific type of armor with which he is proficient, such as chain shirts or scale mail. While wearing the selected type of armor, the fighter adds one-quarter of his fighter level to the armor’s armor bonus, up to a maximum bonus of +3 for light armor, +4 for medium armor, or +5 for heavy armor.
My character has 4 levels in Fighter... the rest is Warpriest. If I take this feat and select Armor Specialization, do my Fighter levels exclusively provide me bonuses from this feat (+1)? Or do my Warpriest levels also apply to the bonuses from the feat/armor training option?
My interpretation of this conundrum:
From the Warpriest class description:
Bonus Feats: ...Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
RAW indicates that, in this instance, for the purpose of calculating the bonus received from the selected armor training option, I would use my Warpriest level to determine the bonus received from the feat.
Anyone disagree?
TIA
Celeborne
Warpriests don't get any kind of armor training, and their levels only count as fighter/full BAB for selecting feats via the Bonus Feats class feature. Feats so selected use the actual BAB etc of the warpriest, not that which was used to select them. Therefore their levels do not stack for this purpose. You get a +1, that's all.
Edit: the text there is all about qualifying for and prerequisites. Somewhere it was mentioned that Power Attack would use the warpriest's real BAB for the extra effect each 4 BAB, but I can't find that just now.
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Was this feat taken as a Warpriest bonus feat? If so the level in Warpriest would stack, if not they would not stack.
Warpriests don't get any kind of armor training, and their levels only count as fighter/full BAB for selecting feats via the Bonus Feats class feature.
I know they don't. I have 4 levels in Fighter, which is how I gained access to the feat in the first place. :)
The question posed questions the RAW vs. RAI, as is the adage. RAW states that my Warpriest levels would count as Fighter levels for the purpose of determining the bonus from this armor training option.
Was this feat taken as a Warpriest bonus feat? If so the level in Warpriest would stack, if not they would not stack.
Yessir. The feat was taken as a Warpriest bonus feat.
Warpriests don't get any kind of armor training, and their levels only count as fighter/full BAB for selecting feats via the Bonus Feats class feature.I know they don't. I have 4 levels in Fighter, which is how I gained access to the feat in the first place. :)
The question posed questions the RAW vs. RAI, as is the adage. RAW states that my Warpriest levels would count as Fighter levels for the purpose of determining the bonus from this armor training option.
No, RAW is not on your side. "for the purposes of these feats [the bonus feats], the warpriest can select feats" makes it clear that the clause only applies to selecting feats. Not to their effects once selected. If you select Power Attack as your 9th level bonus feat you use it with your real BAB, +6, not with the +9 BAB that you had available for the purposes of selecting it. The same would apply to armor specialization.
No, RAW is not on your side. "for the purposes of these feats [the bonus feats], the warpriest can select feats" makes it clear that the clause only applies to selecting feats. Not to their effects once selected. If you select Power Attack as your 9th level bonus feat you use it with your real BAB, +6, not with the +9 BAB that you had available for the purposes of selecting it. The same would apply to armor specialization.Warpriests don't get any kind of armor training, and their levels only count as fighter/full BAB for selecting feats via the Bonus Feats class feature.I know they don't. I have 4 levels in Fighter, which is how I gained access to the feat in the first place. :)
The question posed questions the RAW vs. RAI, as is the adage. RAW states that my Warpriest levels would count as Fighter levels for the purpose of determining the bonus from this armor training option.
I'm not sure why you keep referencing power attack, as power attack is a feat that can be taken with requisites of strength and BAB that are not exclusive to being a Fighter. It doesn't have any specific clause regarding fighter levels and BAB discrepancies, and operates off of BAB alone in the context of mechanics. The feat in question operates off of level, and in this case, the wording of the Warpriest bonus feats states that feats selected with the bonus feat option that require fighter levels operate as if the Warpriest were taking the feat as if s/he were a fighter of the same level.
I'm assuming that, at this point, it will be a house ruling. It can really be interpreted either way because of the structure of the sentence. "For the purposes of these feats" is muddy at best, and the allowance of selecting feats as a fighter of the same level is a given. The fact that the wording adds, "treating his Warpriest level as his Fighter level" is what makes the calculation difficult.
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Bonus Feats: ...Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
-- That line does not change what a feat bestows *at all*. It solely applies to "Fighter level n" requirements. E.g., a Fighter5/Warpriest3 can take Greater Weapon Focus at 8th character level with his 3rd-level warpriest bonus feat.
I've seen it interpreted as having separate level pool numbers.
I believe there's a section in the ACG toothache covers this, stating that levels don't stack.
No, RAW is not on your side. "for the purposes of these feats [the bonus feats], the warpriest can select feats" makes it clear that the clause only applies to selecting feats. Not to their effects once selected. If you select Power Attack as your 9th level bonus feat you use it with your real BAB, +6, not with the +9 BAB that you had available for the purposes of selecting it. The same would apply to armor specialization.Warpriests don't get any kind of armor training, and their levels only count as fighter/full BAB for selecting feats via the Bonus Feats class feature.I know they don't. I have 4 levels in Fighter, which is how I gained access to the feat in the first place. :)
The question posed questions the RAW vs. RAI, as is the adage. RAW states that my Warpriest levels would count as Fighter levels for the purpose of determining the bonus from this armor training option.
I'm not sure why you keep referencing power attack, as power attack is a feat that can be taken with requisites of strength and BAB that are not exclusive to being a Fighter. It doesn't have any specific clause regarding fighter levels and BAB discrepancies, and operates off of BAB alone in the context of mechanics. The feat in question operates off of level, and in this case, the wording of the Warpriest bonus feats states that feats selected with the bonus feat option that require fighter levels operate as if the Warpriest were taking the feat as if s/he were a fighter of the same level.
I'm assuming that, at this point, it will be a house ruling. It can really be interpreted either way because of the structure of the sentence. "For the purposes of these feats" is muddy at best, and the allowance of selecting feats as a fighter of the same level is a given. The fact that the wording adds, "treating his Warpriest level as his Fighter level" is what makes the calculation difficult.
Warpriest only allows counts as having fighter levels for the purpose of selecting feats, not resolving them.
Compare and contrast with the wording used for Magus, who counts as having fighter levels for all purposes.
I'm assuming you're speaking in reference to the 10th level Magus ability "Fighter Training":
"Starting at 10th level, a magus counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack."
It doesn't say anything to the effect of using the Magus level as their fighter level for the purposes of those feats... which is how the Warpriest class ability for Fighter feats makes it sound... especially when compared to the wording of the Magus class ability. I'll reiterate again...
Magus Fighter Training: "Starting at 10th level, a magus counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack."
Warpriest Bonus Feats: "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
Notice the difference in the wording?
I'm not clinging to the pretense that this feat/training option combo is written in such a way so as to provide a stacking bonus to warpriest/fighter multiclass... but it could certainly be interpreted as such, especially when compared to the wording of a similar ability in a different class. The Magus description is much more explicit than the Warpriest description.
Errata?
You would only count the 4 fighter levels for your Armor Specialization. Treating Warpriest levels as Fighter levels is only for meeting prerequisites. There's nothing in the ability language that you treat your Warpriest levels as Fighter levels for other purposes.
Also, Advanced Armor Training can be picked up with a feat, but it still counts as a class feature. If you could stack your Warpriest and Fighter levels, there would probably be specific language allowing that, like the Martial Artist feature from the Champion of Irori or the Aligned Class feature from the Evangelist.
You would only count the 4 fighter levels for your Armor Specialization. Treating Warpriest levels as Fighter levels is only for meeting prerequisites. There's nothing in the ability language that you treat your Warpriest levels as Fighter levels for other purposes.
..."Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
There's not...? Even though it says those exact words in the ability?
I'm just saying, guys... lol. I understand your arguments, and that the way you're deciding to interpret the language in the class ability is the way the bonus feats, for all intents and purposes, are intended to be interpreted (apparently). I'm just saying that the way the description is written is not conducive to that understanding.
No, RAW is not on your side. "for the purposes of these feats [the bonus feats], the warpriest can select feats" makes it clear that the clause only applies to selecting feats.
I hate to point this out, but you're stuck on one portion of the ability description, ignoring the language that I've pointed out, which is clearly misleading in the case that you're trying to make.
I read the Bonus Feats as specifically counting the Warpriest levels as Fighter levels for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. I would not count them for the purpose of using those feats. So I think you only get the +1 bonus.
Agreed. The entire bonus feats ability is solely referring to qualifying for feats and meeting prerequisites. There is nothing there to suggest they affect how the feat functions.
It is a single sentence, albeit framed awkwardly, the last section still refers to qualifying for bonus feats.
The consensus is clear, at least, even if the RAW is jacked up...
"Friends don't let friends stack Warpriest and Fighter levels..."