Celeborne's page

There is only one solution for a problem like this.

Buy a lesser extend metamagic rod. It sells for only 3,000gp and it has a caster level of 17.

You too can have a +5 weapon at 5th level.

+4, actually. ;)

And that's pretty great, especially if you're a spellcaster.

But if you're looking to save a buck.

I don't think that an item you created by using magic is necessarily a magical item: the water you create using Create Water is not magic water.

Actually, it is - as it is wrought from... magic? Nonmagical water wouldn't disappear after a day, as per the spell description. That's splitting hairs, though.

I understand where your head's at with your example... and the skepticist in me reads the "magical item" language in the feat as exactly that and nothing else for the purpose of the enhancement bonus granted by the feat... so I guess it comes down to the table in question (pun intended) and how generous the GM is feeling. As someone who has played a character that used improvised weapons, however, I was heavily discriminated against at my table, and it was always an uphill battle to gain much in the way of impetus when it came to any arbitration, whether it was rules or circumstances. It was fun but it wasn't worth the constant struggle IMO.

How would the spell "Desperate Weapon" interact with Shikigami Manipulation? Would the object conjured provide the enhancement bonus described in the feat? For instance, if I cast Desperate Weapon as an 8th level caster, does my caster level provide a +2 enhancement bonus while wielding the conjured object?

Shikigami Manipulation:
"While using Shikigami Style, you can treat any magical item you’re using as an improvised weapon as if it granted an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the item’s caster level divided by 4 (minimum +1), to a maximum bonus of +5."

Desperate Weapon:
"You create a one-handed object that you might expect to see in your current surroundings, which you can then use as an improvised weapon. The spell conjures such an object near your hand such that you can retrieve it as you complete the spell.

No matter what sort of object you picked, it functions as a one-handed improvised weapon appropriate for your size and that deals 1d6 points of damage for a Medium creature (1d4 for Small creatures). The item deals the type of damage you choose (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) when casting the spell, though the object you request must conform to the damage type.

The spell ends prematurely if the improvised weapon leaves your grasp. The object has no value and can’t be used for other functions other than as an improvised weapon (for instance, this spell doesn’t allow you to conjure an expensive spyglass and sell it or use its other abilities, but you could still use it to beat someone over the head). The conjured object can’t already be a manufactured weapon, even in a location where you might expect to see manufactured weapons. It can be an object that would normally make for an unusual improvised weapon, like a herring at a fish market, and it still deals its full damage."

TIA.

It's a bit difficult to get Weapon Focus with an Improvised Weapon, but not impossible.

Improvisational Focus

A makeshift weapon in your hands is as dangerous as any other instrument of violence.

Prerequisite(s): Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit(s): You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls you make using an improvised weapon. You are considered proficient with the improvised weapon and are considered to have Weapon Focus with improvised weapons for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats that specifically select a weapon, such as Weapon Specialization.

Special: Thrown splash weapons are not considered improvised weapons for the purposes of this feat.

Since improved critical requires proficiency and BAB+8, this feat implicitly states proficiency.

I'd also argue that the language in IWM doesn't expand the range, it "sets" it. I'd allow it.

Question to OP: As an 11th level large reach-specialist fighter, what fraction of your total damage output comes from AoOs? How many AoOs per round do you typically get?

As I'm sure you're aware, AoO's are entirely dependent on the composition of the encounter. That being said, 15' reach is fantastic, especially with Vital Strike.

Single encounters or encounters with low numbers of enemies call for a different tactic. Having a high crit threat range and a good BAB, I don't have to rely on AoO's for efficacy. I can switch to iterative attacks, hopefully trigger Hurtful, and hopefully crit once or twice. Having double strength to damage and eventually double power attack also helps with iterative attack damage.

The +2 save feats aren't going to be enough on their own, you're too far behind. If the stats are set it might be worth dipping a level or two in classes with better saves e.g. monk (lose a point of BAB, get bonus feats at levels 1 & 2; some archetypes work with armor more or less) or paladin (full BAB, no bonus feats) or even bard.

A level dip in monk could be good. Imp. Unarmed strike would qualify me for crane style for a little extra AC if needed, and a little boost in saves. On the contrary, I can enchant my weapon with the cruel enchant, which causes the sickened condition to any enemy that it hits that is affected by a fear type of status. Demoralized and sickened provides -4 to attacks. That doesn't solve the low dex and will save issues, however.

I think I may continue with the build the way it is and focus on magical means of bolstering against common prohibitive conditions from failed will saves.

That being said... the issue of the upper level feat selection still remains. Thoughts?

With weapon trick you choose one option for the type of weapon, like polearms or two-handed, and can use the tricks you qualify for from that option. 'Choose one weapon trick option (one-handed weapon, polearm, ranged, two-handed weapon, two-weapon, or weapon and shield).'

Thanks. This has been house ruled by our DM. I suppose I should have prefaced this aspect of the build with that.

You've traded out bravery and your only defensive feats are combat reflexes and shield brace. This means that against will saves and reflex saves you have a poor save progression and a +1 or zero stat modifier. Even with a +5 cloak of resistance that means +8-9 on those saves at this level. Save DCs tend to be in the low 20s for CR 11; you'll fail most of the time. You're not concerned by this?

How are you size Large?

Again, thanks for bringing that up. You're suggesting some defensive feats, then? Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes? Or were you simply intent on finding a chink in the build? Really just looking for advice... so if you have some of that, great!

As for being large: the caster in my party has most of the craft feats, with campaign and backstory advantages in that regard. I've got a Belt of Giant Strength that is enchanted with Enlarge Person as a constant effect.

So far, I'm sitting at 11th level and I think I'm pretty happy with the way the build is playing out. Here's a few aspects of the build to look at:

Angel-blooded Aasimar
25 point buy, current ability scores look like this:
Asterisk and number denote level stat bumps
STR 16, +2 racial, +2 Large, +6 enhancement, final 24 (*8, 12, 16, and 20)
DEX 14, -2 large, final 12
CON 14
INT 13, final 14 (*4)
WIS 10
CHA 12, +2 racial, final 14

Traits:
Dangerously Curious for UMD
Heirloom Weapon for Fauchard proficiency
Bloody-Minded for Init and Intimidate
Power Hungry Drawback

Straight Fighter
Two-handed Archetype (2x strength and power attack damage)
Opting for Advanced Weapon Training
Group: Polearms
9th: Warrior Spirit for extra enchanting capabilities depending on circumstances and foes (DR, etc.)
13th: Defensive Weapon Training for tankyness
17th: Focused Weapon for Warpriest damage dice bumps to boost Vital Strike
20th: Weapon Mastery in Fauchard for 15-20 crit and x3 damage

Feats:
1 Weapon Trick (Cleaving Smash for Vital Strikes on Cleave, Two-Handed Menace for Cornugon Smash/Hurtful, and Haft Bash for Polearm)
1 Shield Focus
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
4 Shield Brace
5 Weapon Focus: Fauchard
6 Cornugon Smash
7 Hurtful
8 Vital Strike
8 Furious Focus (Campaign bonus feat)
9 Cleave
10 Cleaving Finish
11 Improved Vital Strike *current level*
12 Critical Focus
13 Great Cleave
14 Improved Cleaving Finish
15 Lunge
16 Greater Vital Strike
17 Monkey Lunge
18 Critical Feat
19 Critical Feat
20 Critical Feat

At this point, I'm not sure what feats I should be looking at to augment my build profile. The tactic is for my caster to soften them up with a blast or two, run in, Imp. Vital Strike, Cleave+Vital Strike or Imp. Vital Strike at 16th, Cornugon Smash and trigger Hurtful, hopefully crit at some point, kill something at some point, and Cleaving Finish with more Imp. Vital Strikes. I'll be perma-large, and with lunge should have a 20' reach.

Critical Feats seem to make the most sense, and aside from Greater Vital Strike at 16 and feat prereqs like BAB, the order of the feats taken doesn't matter much after 14th level... but I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to which feats might best fit the bill for the direction I'm headed so far.

As far as equipment goes, is there anything outside of the obvious I be looking for?
Some essentials I know of so far are:
Mithril shield to reduce ACP and attack penalty from Shield Brace
Charisma for Cornugon Smash/Hurtful
Gloves of Dueling to bump Weapon Training
Boots of Striding/Springing
Keen/Impact on Fauchard

Thanks in advance! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

As the title...

Tripping Strike:
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +9.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee attack, you can trip your opponent, in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack. If your confirmation roll exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you may knock your opponent prone as if from the trip combat maneuver. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop your weapon to avoid being tripped.

In this case, what does normal damage constitute? Is it still a critical in terms of damage multiplier if the confirmation roll hits, or does one forego the critical damage in order to trip their target?

The consensus is clear, at least, even if the RAW is jacked up...

"Friends don't let friends stack Warpriest and Fighter levels..."

No, RAW is not on your side. "for the purposes of these feats [the bonus feats], the warpriest can select feats" makes it clear that the clause only applies to selecting feats.

I hate to point this out, but you're stuck on one portion of the ability description, ignoring the language that I've pointed out, which is clearly misleading in the case that you're trying to make.

You would only count the 4 fighter levels for your Armor Specialization. Treating Warpriest levels as Fighter levels is only for meeting prerequisites. There's nothing in the ability language that you treat your Warpriest levels as Fighter levels for other purposes.

..."Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.

There's not...? Even though it says those exact words in the ability?

I'm just saying, guys... lol. I understand your arguments, and that the way you're deciding to interpret the language in the class ability is the way the bonus feats, for all intents and purposes, are intended to be interpreted (apparently). I'm just saying that the way the description is written is not conducive to that understanding.

I'm assuming you're speaking in reference to the 10th level Magus ability "Fighter Training":
"Starting at 10th level, a magus counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack."

It doesn't say anything to the effect of using the Magus level as their fighter level for the purposes of those feats... which is how the Warpriest class ability for Fighter feats makes it sound... especially when compared to the wording of the Magus class ability. I'll reiterate again...

Magus Fighter Training: "Starting at 10th level, a magus counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack."

Warpriest Bonus Feats: "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.

Notice the difference in the wording?

I'm not clinging to the pretense that this feat/training option combo is written in such a way so as to provide a stacking bonus to warpriest/fighter multiclass... but it could certainly be interpreted as such, especially when compared to the wording of a similar ability in a different class. The Magus description is much more explicit than the Warpriest description.

Errata?

Celeborne wrote:

avr wrote:

Warpriests don't get any kind of armor training, and their levels only count as fighter/full BAB for selecting feats via the Bonus Feats class feature.

I know they don't. I have 4 levels in Fighter, which is how I gained access to the feat in the first place. :)

The question posed questions the RAW vs. RAI, as is the adage. RAW states that my Warpriest levels would count as Fighter levels for the purpose of determining the bonus from this armor training option.

No, RAW is not on your side. "for the purposes of these feats [the bonus feats], the warpriest can select feats" makes it clear that the clause only applies to selecting feats. Not to their effects once selected. If you select Power Attack as your 9th level bonus feat you use it with your real BAB, +6, not with the +9 BAB that you had available for the purposes of selecting it. The same would apply to armor specialization.

I'm not sure why you keep referencing power attack, as power attack is a feat that can be taken with requisites of strength and BAB that are not exclusive to being a Fighter. It doesn't have any specific clause regarding fighter levels and BAB discrepancies, and operates off of BAB alone in the context of mechanics. The feat in question operates off of level, and in this case, the wording of the Warpriest bonus feats states that feats selected with the bonus feat option that require fighter levels operate as if the Warpriest were taking the feat as if s/he were a fighter of the same level.

I'm assuming that, at this point, it will be a house ruling. It can really be interpreted either way because of the structure of the sentence. "For the purposes of these feats" is muddy at best, and the allowance of selecting feats as a fighter of the same level is a given. The fact that the wording adds, "treating his Warpriest level as his Fighter level" is what makes the calculation difficult.

Was this feat taken as a Warpriest bonus feat? If so the level in Warpriest would stack, if not they would not stack.

Yessir. The feat was taken as a Warpriest bonus feat.

Warpriests don't get any kind of armor training, and their levels only count as fighter/full BAB for selecting feats via the Bonus Feats class feature.

I know they don't. I have 4 levels in Fighter, which is how I gained access to the feat in the first place. :)

The question posed questions the RAW vs. RAI, as is the adage. RAW states that my Warpriest levels would count as Fighter levels for the purpose of determining the bonus from this armor training option.

Ladies/Gents,

Curious how the masses might interpret Warpriest/Fighter multiclassing interacting with the "Advanced Armor Training" feat, specifically for the "Armor Specialization" ability.

Advanced Armor Training: You are specially trained to use your armor proficiencies in new ways.
Prerequisite(s): Armor Training class feature, fighter level 3rd.
Benefit(s): Select one advanced armor training option.

The option I'm looking at is Armor Specialization:

Armor Specialization: Armor Specialization (Ex): The fighter selects one specific type of armor with which he is proficient, such as chain shirts or scale mail. While wearing the selected type of armor, the fighter adds one-quarter of his fighter level to the armor’s armor bonus, up to a maximum bonus of +3 for light armor, +4 for medium armor, or +5 for heavy armor.

My character has 4 levels in Fighter... the rest is Warpriest. If I take this feat and select Armor Specialization, do my Fighter levels exclusively provide me bonuses from this feat (+1)? Or do my Warpriest levels also apply to the bonuses from the feat/armor training option?

My interpretation of this conundrum:

From the Warpriest class description:
Bonus Feats: ...Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.

RAW indicates that, in this instance, for the purpose of calculating the bonus received from the selected armor training option, I would use my Warpriest level to determine the bonus received from the feat.

Anyone disagree?

TIA
Celeborne