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How does Limited Telepathy work?
So I am running into a few situations. How does Limited Telepathy work for these:
Set the scene: Group of 10 people. 2 Shirrens, 2 Lashuntas, and 6 mixed races. All in a small circle.
1. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Shirren #2. Does anyone else hear? They can talk back and forth telepathically.
2. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Human #1. Can the Human telepathically talk back? Or do they need talk out loud?
3. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Lashuntas #1 and Human #1. Can he direct the communication to just 2 individuals? Can they both hear? (along with question 2) can they talk back? Do they hear each other? I assume if the human can communicate back it would only be to Shirren #1, Lashuntas #1 would not hear.
4. Shirren #1 wants to talk to the whole group. Can he send a message to the whole group, similar to saying something out loud that the group can hear?
The language of the ability is a bit open for interprotation.
Shirrens can communicate telepathically with any creatures within 30 feet with whom they share a language. Conversing telepathically with multiple creatures simultaneously is just as difficult as listening to multiple people speak.
The words that trip me up are:
Communicate: Does this mean 1 way or 2 way communication?
Any: It does not say 'all' creatures. In programming any means 1 or more. So the idea of talking to 1, 2 out of 10, or all 10 would all be valid.
I get the idea of parallel communication being difficult, I am just thinking about a Shirren in a group talking. I assume a Shirren can speak out loud if needed, but much prefers using its Telepathy.
Thoughts?
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I would say
#1 no, just the two of them.
#2 I would say they can talk back, communicate indicates to me conversation, or they could have just said that the user can talk telepathically.
#3 again I see no real reason why not. And while it's a bit vague I'd probably say that all can "hear" each other, though this last is motivated as much by table convenience as anything else.
#4 I would say so, though with that many people he's likely to tire sooner rather that later, just as I'd expect someone talking loud enough to be heard by a room of ten people to tire out more quickly.
My thoughts at least.
1. No one else hears, as it is telepathy.
2. If you talk to someone without a tongue, do they suddenly gain the power of speech? No. The human cannot use a form of communication unless they possess said form of communication.
3. You can directly contact only two specific individuals. They cannot talk back unless they use a form of communication that they possess.
4. Yes.
There's no rules about this definitively. Pathfinder has similar language for telepathy and some published APs treat telepathy as two ways and even able to go through walls without line of sight or effect.
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You can mentally communicate with any other creature within 100 feet that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as speaking and listening to multiple people simultaneously. You can’t use telepathy to locate creatures to communicate with them, but once you’ve established telepathic communication, you don’t require line of effect to maintain it.
This clearly talks about 'conversations' and it doesn't specify that you contact 'telepathic beings' so I think it does establish a 2-way communication.
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As I'm running a limited telepath (Lashunta) character, these are urgent questions. Until there is an official statement, these will be things that each table/PBP game will have to establish.
I guess my take on the question is whether telepathy is best understand to work the same as sonic communication or is it best understood in terms of modern cell phone and Internet communication.
If it is sonic based, then when my lashunta PC wants to communicate telepathically, everyone in 30 feet can hear and presumably think back replies. There is no possibility of limiting who hears and who doesn't.
If this is the case, the chief question to resolve is whether non-telepaths who reply mentally to the initial broadcast can be heard by other non-telepaths; my assumption would be that they cannot, but that if another telepath is in range, he can 'hear' whatever is broadcast in reply to the first message.
The other important clarification to the sonic analogy is whether a person, telepath or non-, can choose to block out receiving telepathic messages. This opens up other questions such as could a telepath try to overcome blockages, perhaps forcing the receiver to make a save in order to block the communication.
If it is like our modern communications with cell phones and the like, then it is possible for my telepath to "open a line" between herself and someone within range and they can communicate but no one else, even other telepaths, can 'listen in' unless they cast a spell like detect thoughts. If so, then it seems reasonable that multiple parties can be involved, like a conference call.
If multiple parties are in such a telepathic 'conference call' then questions will arise as to whether one needs to have at least limited telepathy to hear the communications into the call by non-telepaths. In other words, one would assume any telepath can 'hear' the communicated thoughts of any one connected, but could non-telepath A think a thought to the group and could non-telepath B also in on the call 'hear' A's message. If not, it implies telepaths will have to repeat what a non-telepath says so other non-telepaths will know what was said.
As before, could someone who did not want to receive a communication from a telepath block the call? If it is like cell phones and instant messaging, the receiver would get some kind of 'ping' indicating a call is incoming but he would not need to pick up. Do we assume people are in some kind of default mode where they always pick up or they always have the option to refuse the communication?
The options for message blocking (for either interpretation) may be important if someone wants to make mental intimidation attempts that others may not know are happening.
From the SF Core Rules (to remind us):
Telepathy
A creature with the telepathy special ability can mentally
communicate with any other creature within a certain range
(specified in the creature's description, though the range of
telepathy is usually 100 feet) that knows a language. It is
possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically,
although maintaining a telepathic conversation with
more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as
simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at
the same time.
Limited Telepathy
Limited telepathy functions in the same manner as telepathy,
except that both the creature with the limited telepathy special
ability and the creature it is communicating with must have a
language in common.
From this, it appears Telepathy can be used to communicate via a two-way conversation with any being that understands a language. This is regardless of what each person involved can speak.
Limited Telepathy, however, requires both parties to have a common language.
In either case, it can be assumed by the writing that only one party in the conversation is required to have a form of telepathy.
Having said that, I'll be ruling as per Kvetchus has described until clarification!
I always ruled that (limited telepathy) allows the contacted creature to answer mentally, even if it lacks telepathy, allowing for silent two-way communication.
The two-way nature seems to be also implied in the Core Rulebook "Playing a Lashunta" part, under "Other races probably... Fear you'll use your telepathy to read their minds."
Well, how much can you read of their minds?
The two-way nature seems to be also implied in the Core Rulebook "Playing a Lashunta" part, under "Other races probably... Fear you'll use your telepathy to read their minds."
I figured that line was more a reference to the Detect Thoughts ability than to Limited Telepathy. Also, the fact that some other races have prejudice against you and assume you have powerful malicious mind-reading abilities doesn't necessarily mean that you do.
That being said, I've seen people playing it different ways in SFS and agree that it's not very clear in the rules. In a home game situation I'd just discuss it with the table and make sure everyone is clear on how we want it to work. (It's important to have that discussion before the situation comes up where you're sneaking around in some secret area and the slightest sound would alert the enemies.)
Since the definition says "communicate with" and not something like "send messages into the mind of", or even "talk to", I'm inclined to think it would be ok to have two-way communication, at least for short conversations.
For my own lashunta I stay more conservative and play it like Kvetchus says - I speak telepathically to specific individuals or to entire groups, and don't assume they can reply unless they also have telepathic ability.
Oh yeah, I absolutely forgot about them having Detect Thoughts.
I hope they update the FAQ about this... It has come up several times in my game.
There is one thing I consider, as a GM, which renders this debate kind of useless: Telepathy is visible. Like 2 people speaking, even if you can't hear them, you understand that they are communicating. Same goes with a cellphone communication, people know you are speaking to someone. So, even if telepathy can't be catch by other members, they will clearly know you are communicating by the movement of your antenaes, your facial expressions and the fact that your recipient concentrates, too. And I'm pretty sure, at that stage, people will ask you to speak out loud or just get outside if you want privacy.
I may ask a player to make a stealth or bluff check to hide his conversation, opposed by the other people's sense motive. And in a room full of people, it will be a tough check.
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There is one thing I consider, as a GM, which renders this debate kind of useless: Telepathy is visible. Like 2 people speaking, even if you can't hear them, you understand that they are communicating. Same goes with a cellphone communication, people know you are speaking to someone. So, even if telepathy can't be catch by other members, they will clearly know you are communicating by the movement of your antenaes, your facial expressions and the fact that your recipient concentrates, too.
Those are some cool house rules you just made up.
Just started some new players on Starfinder and this issue popped up almost immediately...
So, we similarly had a disagreement at the table about how this worked. I see it like this and I view it through the lens of the game setting. All lashunta and shirrens can at least transmit telepathically, in a species where everyone can transmit it seems a bit odd for them to grant a not telepathic recipient the ability to respond telepathically. Amongst their respective species it is unnecessary because everyone can transmit and generally speaking in evolution anything unnecessary either withers away or never evolves in the first place. As such I ruled that lashunta and shirrens can transmit to anyone but unless they are also telepathic they can not reply telepathically. I also made it so you can use tight beam or open broadcast, that is you telepathically speak to one person or everyone nearby.
I've been communicated at plenty of times...
it says communicate, not converse. the word communicate does not imply 2 way, it literally means to transmit information.
it says communicate, not converse. the word communicate does not imply 2 way, it literally means to transmit information.
The telepathy spell notes "maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as speaking and listening to multiple people simultaneously."
Limited Telepathy should operate the same, just limiting your range and imposing the same known language requirement.
Is "telepathic conversation" between two (or more) telepathic beings, or a conversation started by a telepathic being with a non-telepath?
The latter. Only the target of the spell is granted telepathy.
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We think of it this way: telepathy operates like a walkie talkie in the mind of a sentient creature. Because it exists as a possibility in the Starfinder universe, it is a potential for all sentient creatures unless the creature has been specified to be deaf and/or mute to it.
Creatures with telepathy of any form are capable of turning their walker talkie on and off at will. Depending on the strength of the telepath, when they “push to talk”, they may be able to broadcast on a single frequency or on a range of frequencies at once. They may possibly, as in the case of the Detect Thoughts spell, also be able to tune into the equivalent of an ultrasonic set of frequencies.
Creatures without telepathy cannot turn their walkie talkies off at will. As with most creatures, they uncontrollably broadcast their thoughts in an ultrasonic range that most telepaths are not naturally attuned to. Their walkie talkie device allowing for deliberate telepathic two-way communication *can* be switched on by a telepathic creature who wishes to communicate. With the device operating and the telepath tuned into the correct channel, the non-telepath is able to “push to talk” mentally to the telepath simply because that’s the nature of a walkie-talkie. The device is automatically switched off once the telepath has no further intention to continue the conversation in this way.
While there are some means for certain creatures to listen in on either regular telepathic communication (as with the Intercepting Ears magitech augmentation) or the natural ultrasonic frequencies (as with particularly powerfully telepathic races or through the use of the Detect Thoughts spell), this is not a function of typical Limited Telepathy.
So how about it, Paizo? How does telepathy officially work?
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The telepathy spell notes "maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as speaking and listening to multiple people simultaneously."
Since there is little else to go on, I'd use the "listening" part of the description of the difficulty of use as a basis. If they couldn't "talk" back, then the listening part would be moot.
I think the wording is the key.
It states
You can communicate WITH...
That's the word I would focus on. You can talk TO someone and they not understand a word of it (this happens when I yell at my kids in Hungarian because I have stepped on their legos). When you communicate WITH someone it implies a couple of things..
1). It's a collaborative communication meaning that both parties can have input. ie... you both can communicate with one another.
2). There is a shared understanding of the form of communication. Ie.. nonverbal in this case using some form of mental response.
In the case of the Shirran it goes on to elaborate on additional conditions for this to be successful, but I haven't looked at other telepathic forms of communication as this post was specific to racial telepathy.
Pretty weird that in a world of personal radios and sealed suits with environmental systems you guys are worried about 30' telepathy allowing too much party communication.
Subvocal mics and earphones and cell phones (and magnets, I guess), how do they work
Anything in the Society adventures or the adventure paths shed light on this yet?
Anything in the Society adventures or the adventure paths shed light on this yet?
There's a Society adventure where the NPC giving the mission briefing is very concerned about it being overheard, so they use limited telepathy to speak to the PCs, and tell the PCs not to say anything out loud.
"[NPC] insists on answering telepathically, and scolds PCs who speak verbally rather than via their telepathy—the mission needs to be as secret as possible, after all!"
There's nothing in the adventure text that says non-telepathic PCs can't ask questions. So in that scenario, at least, it seems to be assumed that anyone can reply telepathically to someone using limited telepathy.
Nice find! Just a few more years of hints like this and we might have something like an official stance...
So it's the cellphone like version.
Do you need line of effect?