Simple question:
For an operative that utilizes small arms, what is the order of importance for the ability scores?
Obviously, dexterity is king... but after dexterity, what sort of ability array is best?
Strength seems like the most obvious score to drop...
So a ysoki operative would probably start around something like 8str 18dex 10con 14int 10eis 12cha?
At 5, 10, 15, and 20, level up dex, con... wisdom and int? Or int and cha (if you want to do face stuff?)
What do you guys think? Anyone have an interesting plan?
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I'd say it depends on what Operative specialization you decide to go with.
Hacker Operatives want more INT, to keep their computer-assisted trick attacks accurate. Meanwhile, a Detective Operative would want to have a higher Wisdom since sense motive and perception are such key skills for them. Spies, meanwhile, want Charisma high so that no one can see through the web of lies that they weave.
So, in short, what skills do you want your Operative to be good at? Prioritize your secondary ability scores accordingly, after getting all the Dexterity you can.
Makes sense.
Looking at ghost and bounty hunter...
Offensive operative who can track down targets and assassinate them as needed, but can intimidate or speak with people as needed to get information about his targets as he goes.
Thus, dex is most important... then cha, int, con, and wisdom are all at similar levels
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Also keep in mind that a low strength will mean a low bulk limit. Just a hygiene kit and a week's field rations is 2 bulk. You could end up encumbered very easily even with an industrial backpack.
I would say a minimum level of strength is important, but it's importance falls of rather quickly as you level up. Then other stats become more advantageous. A bulk limit of 6 is a lot better than a bulk limit of 5. Whereas the difference between 15 and 16 is pretty bill. However the other stat's bonuses don't fall off in effectiveness in the same way.
Just keep in mind that STR affects melee damage even with operative weapons. There are times when using a melee weapon is useful to not trigger an opportunity attack.
At low levels, a high STR operative will do the most damage of all operative builds.
nicholas storm wrote: Just keep in mind that STR affects melee damage even with operative weapons. There are times when using a melee weapon is useful to not trigger an opportunity attack. At least until you pick up the Operative Talent that lets you ignore attacks of opportunity made when firing point blank with guns.
baggageboy wrote: Also keep in mind that a low strength will mean a low bulk limit. Just a hygiene kit and a week's field rations is 2 bulk. You could end up encumbered very easily even with an industrial backpack. Not sure of that. All small arms and operative melee weapons are L bulk, Most of the light armors are also L. As are most of the other purchases you will want (tool kits, extra ammo, some cable line, etc) are also L bulk. So you can have around 3 bulk, and that Ysoki with an industrial backpack can carry up to 5 bulk without being encumbered.
And regarding triggering AoO shoting small arms, besides the operative talent Ventor mentioned whi is 6th leve, you can also select Uncanny Mobility at level 2 to move away without provoking and then shot. Not as useful if you're surrounded, but you can use it sooner.
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Warning long rambling rant:
It's true that you can use a backpack to offset the weaknesses of a low strength but it has some severe limitations still. The description for the backpacks describe the capacity of the backpacks as around 3 bulk, so you're not actually able to carry that much in one. Also if he had to carry the backpack as opposed to wearing it the bulk of the backpack itself counts, so instead of an effective bulk of three with a capacity of 5 now you are at 4 bulk with a capacity of 4, you are encombered. Granted you'd want to wear you backpack normally, but it just goes to show the risks of not at least bumping strength a little.
Also what are you going to do if you have to pick up something during you adventuring for some reason? Oh I'm sorry I can't pick up that pike, I'll be encombered.
The relative advantage of having a reasonable carry capacity vs the bonuses that the other ability scores give at low levels just doesn't justify ignoring strength completely. Beyond the first level that changes. Put those increases in other places, but everyone should be able to carry at least a bit in my opinion.
I had a thread where operative optimization was discussed: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uk60?Operative-Optimization
TLDR this is what I decided to go with. If you're wondering about Mysticism I wanted to maximize disarming magical traps as well as normal traps from engineering.
Race: Ysoki
Class: Operative (Ghost)
Theme: Themeless (Str and Mysticism)
Stats: Str 9, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Initiative: 5
Health and Resolve: SP 6, HP 8, RP 5
Armor: 15 EAC, 16 KAC
Saves: Fortitude 2, Reflex 6, Will 2
Feats: Great Fortitude
Skills: Acrobatics (11) and Stealth (13) from specialization. Other 11 ranks in: Athletics (4), Bluff (5), Computers (8), Engineering (10), Medicine (8), Mysticism (5), Perception (5), Piloting (9), Sense Motive (5), Sleight of Hand (9), Survival (7).
Gear: Azimuth Laser Pistol, Second Skin, Industrial Backpack, Battery, Personal Comm Unit, Mk1 Healing Serum, Everyday Clothing, Tool Kit (Disguise), Tool Kit (Engineering), Tool Kit (Hacking), Tool Kit (Navigator's), Tool Kit (Trapsmith), Basic Medkit, Titanium Alloy Cable (50 ft), Starstone Compass, Credstick with 29 credits. (2 bulk)
For leveling up I plan on boosting Dex 4x, Int 3x, Con 4x, Wis 4x, and Cha 1x.
Patryn- wrote: I had a thread where operative optimization was discussed: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uk60?Operative-Optimization
TLDR this is what I decided to go with. If you're wondering about Mysticism I wanted to maximize disarming magical traps as well as normal traps from engineering.
Race: Ysoki
Class: Operative (Ghost)
Theme: Themeless (Str and Mysticism)
Stats: Str 9, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Initiative: 5
Health and Resolve: SP 6, HP 8, RP 5
Armor: 15 EAC, 16 KAC
Saves: Fortitude 2, Reflex 6, Will 2
Feats: Great Fortitude
Skills: Acrobatics (11) and Stealth (13) from specialization. Other 11 ranks in: Athletics (4), Bluff (5), Computers (8), Engineering (10), Medicine (8), Mysticism (5), Perception (5), Piloting (9), Sense Motive (5), Sleight of Hand (9), Survival (7).
Gear: Azimuth Laser Pistol, Second Skin, Industrial Backpack, Battery, Personal Comm Unit, Mk1 Healing Serum, Everyday Clothing, Tool Kit (Disguise), Tool Kit (Engineering), Tool Kit (Hacking), Tool Kit (Navigator's), Tool Kit (Trapsmith), Basic Medkit, Titanium Alloy Cable (50 ft), Starstone Compass, Credstick with 29 credits. (2 bulk)
For leveling up I plan on boosting Dex 4x, Int 3x, Con 4x, Wis 4x, and Cha 1x.
Build looks pretty good, but why not just go priest over themeless? Still get mysticism as a class skill and get lowered dcs when using it or culture to recall related things... instead of a +2 bonus for a skill check, you can get bonuses to diplomacy intimidation when dealing with clergy... and they are likely to help you
At 12 you get a level 1 spell like ability over the random refill, and at 18 you gain a way to regain resolve instead of just increasing your pool.
Can just be a priest of something related to what u want to do with the operative (i.e. assassination or such, and your clergy dear you, etc.). It can be a philosophy or diety... so you can just be a member of a sect of thieves or assassin's or whatever, with a specific philosophy
My weaker characters may get exploration buggies to hold their hygiene kits, tents, and rations.
Ecliptic12 wrote: Build looks pretty good, but why not just go priest over themeless? Still get mysticism as a class skill and get lowered dcs when using it or culture to recall related things... instead of a +2 bonus for a skill check, you can get bonuses to diplomacy intimidation when dealing with clergy... and they are likely to help you
At 12 you get a level 1 spell like ability over the random refill, and at 18 you gain a way to regain resolve instead of just increasing your pool.
Can just be a priest of something related to what u want to do with the operative (i.e. assassination or such, and your clergy dear you, etc.). It can be a philosophy or diety... so you can just be a member of a sect of thieves or assassin's or whatever, with a specific philosophy
Yeah I thought about being a priest of Besmara or Triune or Lao Shu Po. I think if you worshipped Triune you'd probably get the most benefit out of the clergy related abilities but I really have no idea and it's probably campaign specific. The priest abilities just seemed really niche and the more universal Themeless abilities seemed like they'd come up more often. Priest theme definitely presents more roleplaying opportunities. Could go for a Thane Krios (Mass Effect) vibe.
I did take a look at the level 1 mystic abilities but nothing really stuck out to me. Maybe Charm Person, Command, Mystic Cure, or Remove Lesser Condition but at level 12 I'm not sure how useful these would really be. Our DC with a 14 Wisdom would only be 13 (10+1+2) so I doubt we'd ever succeed. Could go for the Spellbane feat for +2 saves against spells instead if you're themeless.
There's a decent trade off either way... *shrug*
Have you thought about how you want to progress in terms of exploits?
Basically get 2 level 2 exploits, 2 level 6 exploits, 3 level 10 exploits (one for specialization), and 4 level 14 exploits (or 3 or 2, if you want one or 2 more from lower levels)
Plenty of good options at each level... some of the nicer ones at higher levels require a lot of investment at lower levels (like the senses line or the stunning shot line)
My planned progression thus far:
2 - uncanny mobility
4 - holographic clone
5 - cloaking field (ghost)
6 - staggering shot
8 - mentalist's bane
10 - stunning shot
12 - deactivating shot/glimpse the truth (having trouble deciding which to pick)
14 - knockout shot
16 - multiattack mastery
18 - efficient cloaking field
20 - glimpse the truth/deactivating shot (whichever I didn't select at 12)
Mostly undecided on feat progression as well...
Great fortitude and deadly aim at 1 and 3... but then?
Good possible feats: weapon focus, veiled threat, iron will, improved great fortitude, improved iron will, multi-weapon fighting, quick draw, improved initiative, skill synergy, mobility, shot on the run, sidestep, improved sidestep, hey dash
I've started planning this out but I'm still undecided on a lot of it. Almost all the feats have no prequisites so they can be taken in any order.
1 - Great Fortitude
2 - Uncanny Mobility
3 - Deadly Aim
4 - Field Treatment / Holographic Clone
5 - Cloaking Field (Ghost), Sky Jockey (for better flight speed, Jetpacks come at level 5 too)
6 - Bleeding Shot / Sure Footed / Staggering Shot
7 - Weapon Focus (Small Arms)
8 - Bleeding Shot / Sure Footed / Staggering Shot
9 - Spellbane
10 - Stunning Shot
11 - Iron Will
12 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
13 - Lightning Reflexes
14 - Knockout Shot
15 - Toughness
16 - Multiattack Mastery
17 - Fleet
18 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
19 - Improved Initiative
20 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
Patryn- wrote: Ecliptic12 wrote: Build looks pretty good, but why not just go priest over themeless? Still get mysticism as a class skill and get lowered dcs when using it or culture to recall related things... instead of a +2 bonus for a skill check, you can get bonuses to diplomacy intimidation when dealing with clergy... and they are likely to help you
At 12 you get a level 1 spell like ability over the random refill, and at 18 you gain a way to regain resolve instead of just increasing your pool.
Can just be a priest of something related to what u want to do with the operative (i.e. assassination or such, and your clergy dear you, etc.). It can be a philosophy or diety... so you can just be a member of a sect of thieves or assassin's or whatever, with a specific philosophy
Yeah I thought about being a priest of Besmara or Triune or Lao Shu Po. I think if you worshipped Triune you'd probably get the most benefit out of the clergy related abilities but I really have no idea and it's probably campaign specific. The priest abilities just seemed really niche and the more universal Themeless abilities seemed like they'd come up more often. Priest theme definitely presents more roleplaying opportunities. Could go for a Thane Krios (Mass Effect) vibe.
I did take a look at the level 1 mystic abilities but nothing really stuck out to me. Maybe Charm Person, Command, Mystic Cure, or Remove Lesser Condition but at level 12 I'm not sure how useful these would really be. Our DC with a 14 Wisdom would only be 13 (10+1+2) so I doubt we'd ever succeed. Could go for the Spellbane feat for +2 saves against spells instead if you're themeless. I'd say that Wisp Ally would be a solid pick for a Priest. No saving throw, no spell resistance, just a choice every round to debuff an enemy's attacks against one ally or make your next attack against that enemy more accurate.
Patryn- wrote: I had a thread where operative optimization was discussed: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uk60?Operative-Optimization
TLDR this is what I decided to go with. If you're wondering about Mysticism I wanted to maximize disarming magical traps as well as normal traps from engineering.
Race: Ysoki
Class: Operative (Ghost)
Theme: Themeless (Str and Mysticism)
Stats: Str 9, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Initiative: 5
Health and Resolve: SP 6, HP 8, RP 5
Armor: 15 EAC, 16 KAC
Saves: Fortitude 2, Reflex 6, Will 2
Feats: Great Fortitude
Skills: Acrobatics (11) and Stealth (13) from specialization. Other 11 ranks in: Athletics (4), Bluff (5), Computers (8), Engineering (10), Medicine (8), Mysticism (5), Perception (5), Piloting (9), Sense Motive (5), Sleight of Hand (9), Survival (7).
Gear: Azimuth Laser Pistol, Second Skin, Industrial Backpack, Battery, Personal Comm Unit, Mk1 Healing Serum, Everyday Clothing, Tool Kit (Disguise), Tool Kit (Engineering), Tool Kit (Hacking), Tool Kit (Navigator's), Tool Kit (Trapsmith), Basic Medkit, Titanium Alloy Cable (50 ft), Starstone Compass, Credstick with 29 credits. (2 bulk)
For leveling up I plan on boosting Dex 4x, Int 3x, Con 4x, Wis 4x, and Cha 1x.
I am planing on playing an Android Operative (ghost) that has almost the exact same skills and stats. But...
1) I have a lower Dex 16 and kept the int 16, I like this over having 1 stat at 18 do to the fact that the 2 points can be used other places (St and Ch or other area) and at the level you get stat bonuses you get +2 vs +1 in Dex.
1a) I think in the game I am going to play in this would be fine but I can say that I have seen games that you need an 18 over a 16 to succeed.
1b) Note that having a 16 vs 18 also lowers some skill at the start and again a +1 may be huge in some games at the start.
2) I am going to take Improved unarmed attack for my feat because that way I can always threaten a square (if I am not using both hands and a weapon and my feel are not entangled.)
But depending on the GM and encounters my feat pick might be worthless even though it fits me PC's theme.
3) I also plan on picking up some melee operative weapons for thematic reasons and use and having a ST bonus helps in the damage area here but not the to hit (as you can use your Dex bonus).
MDC
Yeah the 16 Dex ultimately gets you +4 Charisma at level 20 at a cost of being slightly weaker for all your dex based checks. Operative is just so Dex based I feel like the 18 Dex is worth it. I've got an Envoy in my group that will handle most of the face skills but if you wanted to be even more well rounded I think the 9/16/10/16/10/12 array is fine.
I plan on getting Mk 3 Dex, Mk 2 Int, Mk 1 Con augments so at 20 I'd either have:
9/28/20/24/18/12
or
9/26/20/24/18/16
For me I'd rather have +1 to Dex checks instead of +2 to Cha checks but I think it's just preference and not huge either way. Most people's campaigns never get to 20 anyway.
I think using a feat on improved unarmed strike isn't optimal because you could easily just hold any operative weapon in your offhand and get the same benefit with higher hit chance but if it goes with your character's theme then go for it!
The thing is what if you do not have an opp weapon in your off hand? Or what if you do not have any weapons?
I generally try and plan for such things but I agree that they do not occur with the same frequency in all games or all types of games.
MDC
With the current content provided by Paizo, it's probably not worth planning your character past level 12. As such, a starting score of 16 means 1 bump to 18. A starting score of 18 means 2 bumps to 20.
I feel STR is more important than the operatives on this post do. I played an adventure with 2 operatives at level 1. One with a STR 10 DEX 18; the other with STR 10 DEX 16. The 18 DEX one did pretty close to nothing in combat (didn't have good die rolls, plus low damage). The 16DEX one did kill an enemy after 4 rounds of trick attack.
I don't know why the trick attack progression is so stunted at low levels, but it seems in combat low STR operatives will kind of suck in combat at levels 1 and 2.
Well, at 1st, almost everyone's damage is terrible at range. I mean, 1d8 tends to be as good as it gets if you aren't a Soldier. The 1d6+1d4 an Operative can do is pretty solidly on par.
Melee you're better off with some Str to go with your Dex, yes, but that's hardly the only route to go down.
Obviously there are multiple routes to make a character. Every person has their own idea of what they want their character to be able to do. The operative doesn't need more skill points (since it has 10+INT per level skills), so starting with a 16 INT really just enables higher bonuses on INT skills.
So I would trade INT for STR. That means to me, it's not obvious to drop STR.
nicholas storm wrote: Obviously there are multiple routes to make a character. Every person has their own idea of what they want their character to be able to do. The operative doesn't need more skill points (since it has 10+INT per level skills), so starting with a 16 INT really just enables higher bonuses on INT skills.
So I would trade INT for STR. That means to me, it's not obvious to drop STR.
Creating a Human Operative with Int 12, I in no way felt that I had enough skill points. Tastes differ.
I am not saying that one needs to build for combat and that there is no room for a skill monkey. My point was rather that there is more than one way to build an operative - since I seem to see this same build by everyone (except the one ravingdork posted).
When I built my soldier, I wanted to originally do ranged, but realized that melee is king at low levels.
nicholas storm wrote: I am not saying that one needs to build for combat and that there is no room for a skill monkey. My point was rather that there is more than one way to build an operative - since I seem to see this same build by everyone (except the one ravingdork posted). Oh, it's a valid strategy. Just noting it's hardly the only one.
nicholas storm wrote: When I built my soldier, I wanted to originally do ranged, but realized that melee is king at low levels. Eh. You get full attacks more often, and those are an advantage even at 1st. Plus, it becomes much less the case even per attack by 3rd or 4th level. Heck, by 4th you can easily be doing 1d10+6 and only slightly less than the 1d10+10 a melee Soldier is doing.
I wanted to go strength based, but their key stat is dexterity. I really wish the classes were not shoehorned into a stat. At the very least it two choices should be given, but to answer the question it is dex unless you take an archetype.
I've thought a bit more about feat and exploit progression. I feel pretty locked in through level 7 for feats. After that I'd pick from Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Enhanced Resistance, Toughness, Fleet, Improved Initiative, and Versatile Focus.
I'm interested in people's thoughts between Field Treatment and Holographic Clone. Negating up to 4 hits seems good but you could end up just getting one image and then still getting still hit every time. Field treatment heals 12 HP at level 4 which is a little less than half and seems to scale consistently to about half your HP through level 20 but it costs a reserve point to use.
1 - Great Fortitude
2 - Uncanny Mobility
3 - Spellbane
4 - Field Treatment / Holographic Clone
5 - Cloaking Field (Ghost), Sky Jockey
6 - Staggering Shot
7 - Weapon Focus (Small Arms)
8 - Bleeding Shot / Sure Footed
9 - Feat
10 - Stunning Shot
11 - Feat
12 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
13 - Feat
14 - Knockout Shot
15 - Feat
16 - Multiattack Mastery
17 - Feat
18 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
19 - Feat
20 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
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If you expect no one in your group is going to play a mystic, take field treatment for sure. Hit points are hard to recover in this game without a mystic.
I also forgot that taking a level of soldier gives you Advanced Melee weapons which was another big thing for me. ie 1 operative melee weapon and 1 advanced melee weapon, save/use the advanced weapon for AOO.
MDC
baggageboy wrote: Also keep in mind that a low strength will mean a low bulk limit. Just a hygiene kit and a week's field rations is 2 bulk. You could end up encumbered very easily even with an industrial backpack. baggageboy is teaching us about encumberance. I suppose you would be the expert...
I was under the impression that Operatives didn't really benefit from soldier dips since they couldn't use trick attack with any of the proficiencies.
MageHunter wrote: I was under the impression that Operatives didn't really benefit from soldier dips since they couldn't use trick attack with any of the proficiencies. This is correct.
I agree I do not plan on using operative tricks with soldier proficiencies. I really do not think I will get to play in more than one game do to other commitments but if I was able to keep playing I really do not see a problem with the solder dip but instead see a huge upside to it.
MDC
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