Rozberry |
My players just beat Hellion this week, and I've encountered a dilemma. Hellion has a hardness of 10, and the party consisted of a paladin, bard, gunslinger, and rogue (rogue was killed by hellion, next character will be an unchained monk). The problem is this: the only players that were able to overcome Hellion's hardness were the rogue (and only if sneak attacking) and the paladin. The paladin is able to put out an exorbitant amount of damage per round (especially now that he has Kulgarra's chainsaw), and Hellion was only a threat to the party because he used confusion in round 1 and the paladin failed his will save.
My players do not know that adamantite bypasses up to 20 hardness, I'm thinking of giving them a knowledge: engi check to figure this out. My problem is that the players have barely spent any money so far in the campaign and can easily afford adamantite weapons for everyone. Unfortunately for me, the paladin already easily tears through foes and hardness is a balancing factor to give the foes enough survivability to actually threaten the PCs.
So, when should I let the players try this knowledge check to figure out that adamantite weapons would be really useful for them?
CharlieIAm |
Given that back in Fires of Creation there were Adamantine Bolts and an Adamantine Dagger listed for sale in Torch, I'm kind of surprised that the PCs managed to get through the first two books without finding out that it's good against constructs.
The relevant question in my mind is where the PCs would obtain the Adamantine weapons in the first place. An Adamantine Short Sword is above the Purchase Limit of Torch, and I doubt that there are any such weapons in Scrapwall that weren't explicitly listed.
(And when dealing with Kulgara's chainsaw, don't forget that it can eat up battery charges at a prodigious rate. My party ended up selling it.)
Mathmuse |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The paladin will hack through opponents at an exorbitant rate regardless of whether he has an adamantine weapon or not. Adamantine weapons will instead give the other party members a chance to damage robots. The paladin's disadvantage against robots is that he can't Smite Evil against them.
The characters in my party armed themselves with adamantine weapons right after defeating Hellion. But they had several special circumstances.
1) Three party members had taken the campaign trait Local Ties and were residents of Torch. Two had grown up there. The dwarven gunslinger Boffin had worked odd jobs at the torch of Torch itself, had seen experts smelt the adamantine out of glaucite at the torch, and had ranks in Profession(metallurgist).
2) I filled out the details of the city of Torch more. It was the metallurgy center of Numeria, so I allowed it double its usual purchase limit on skymetal items. Adamantine pickaxes and saws were easy to commission.
3) The party made their own adamantine weapons in the Tavern Foundry in Torch. Four of them had invested heavily in Craft(weapons) and Knowledge(engineering). I switched to the Making Craft Work rules to allow faster crafting.
4) They had their own adamantine. After defeating Hellion, the party remained in Scrapwall for a few months. They realized that the Haunted Valley would still have some technological items in it. The supernatural monsters would have stopped the Scrapwallers from picking it clean. The skald used her spell kenning ability to cast Technomancy to search for technology and Detect Metal to search for skymetals. They found both technology and skymetals.
5) They had their own adamantine smelter. Okay, I went crazy here. I made the wrecked spaceship in the Haunted Valley repairable. Most of those months in Scrapwall were spent hiring local help to dig it out. They finished repairing it to flyable condition three days before the Technic League showed up to investigate rumors about it. Boffin rigged the spaceship's nuclear reactor to also smelt glaucite into adamantine. But now they had a steady supply of adamantine and had to keep it secret from the Technic League. They coached a Scrapwall hireling who had escaped with them in a cover story: he had found a treasure map leading to a cache of adamantine and had hired the heroes of Torch to find it for him.
So, when should I let the players try this knowledge check to figure out that adamantite weapons would be really useful for them?
I recommend letting them notice that the Scrapwall scavengers are going into the formerly haunted valley. If they question one, he will be a miner who explains all the merits of the seven skymetals.
Grumpus RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 |
Rozberry |
Thanks for the replies, here's what I think I'll do:
-When the party returns to Torch for turn-ins and next steps there will be a single adamantine (ooops, used the wrong word in the entire first post) short sword available to buy at 150% price, which is sold by a visiting smith. Price increase due to increased monitoring of Torch by the Technic League following both the incident from book 1 and the rumored disappearance of Sanvil Trett from somewhere in the area.
-The PCs can commission the local blacksmith (who's friendly because of them doing the sidequest in book 1) to make a single adamantine weapon of their choice. The price is doubled and it will take him until at least the point where they are about to enter the choking tower (a week or two plus) to make because he has to import the adamantine using less-than-reputable sources in order to avoid the attention of the Technic League.
Does this sound fair?
Draco Voodoo |
Dinvaya had a Wrecking Bar available for trade in my game. The use was fairly obvious and I statted it up as an adamantine club with tripping property and a +4 equipment bonus for opening doors.
(I'm running an all kobold party and high strength PCs are somewhat lacking)
GM saw a lot of hardness ahead that could easily suck the fun out of combat.
Ascalaphus |
My players have been a bit slow with getting it because I didn't give them that much loose money, and made it clear that selling large amounts of tech might attract League attention.
But I've also been focusing on Torch as being a real home. The leaders of Torch see the value in having the friendship of a team of talented adventurers so they've done big and small things to make the players feel welcomed. There was a victory parade after they came back from Scrapwall and they were given a house with lead-lined walls to have some privacy.
Another thing I've done has been to emphasize that Torch is the place where adamantine weapons come from. The League gets their weapons there, as do crusaders and foreign nobles. The town leadership has been paying the PCs not just in money, but also with the option to even get adamantine weapons made. (Nobody just happens to have an adamantine elven curve blade lying around.)
Right now they're on a social visit to the Ghost Wolves and have an adamantine earthbreaker hidden in the trunk which is supposed to be traded for scrap skymetal. If the League would learn that Torch is consorting with the rebel tribe there'd be trouble.
Later on I plan to send the PCs to Iadenveigh because they asked Torch for representatives to discuss the sale of a massive quantity of adamantine arrowheads. Torch wants to know if Iadenveigh is planning an uprising or just being crazy-in-the-woods militia people.
---
So, I'm allowing access, but at a limited pace, all the while emphasizing that it's expensive and a very controlled, strategic resource.
Evil Paul RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 |
For those whose didn't get adamantine of any kind in Fires of Creation, how did your group beat the Collector Robots? They have hardness 10, which remember applies to spells also.
Getting hold of adamantine, even if it is just a few arrows or bullets seems pretty key to survival in Numeric. Without it, a lone rampaging robot, even a weak one like a Collector can ravage a town. I would assume that seasoned adventurers like Dolga and Joram would be very aware of the importance of adamantine...
Mathmuse |
For those whose didn't get adamantine of any kind in Fires of Creation, how did your group beat the Collector Robots? They have hardness 10, which remember applies to spells also.
Getting hold of adamantine, even if it is just a few arrows or bullets seems pretty key to survival in Numeric. Without it, a lone rampaging robot, even a weak one like a Collector can ravage a town. I would assume that seasoned adventurers like Dolga and Joram would be very aware of the importance of adamantine...
When the party first visited Dolga Freddert's office, I mentioned her adamantine warhammer on display on the wall. Though the dwarven gunslinger was a distant cousin, she never asked to borrow the hammer.
My party encountered the collector robots in Fires of Creation before they made adamantine weapons. They defeated the collector robot in the Sick Bay by the gunslinger grappling it with the autograpnel, the fighter and the magus flanking it, and the skald singing an Inspired Rage song to enhance their strength. The fighter rolled a possible crit, with all the debuffs on the robot he confirmed the crit, and he dealt 36 damage in one blow. The robot already had 10 damage from other hits and Shocking Grasp, so the 26 damage that got past the hardness finished it off.
I gave Meyanda other help in the reactor room and moved her collector robot to the navigation room with Gruethur. The party knocked Gruether unconscious with a sonic stun gun and repeated the flank and grapple against the collector robot. They did not get a crit, but slowly worn it down by often dealing a little more than 10 damage. They healed up with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds before breaking into the reactor room.
Ascalaphus |
For those whose didn't get adamantine of any kind in Fires of Creation, how did your group beat the Collector Robots? They have hardness 10, which remember applies to spells also.
The same way adventurers handle any kind of DR that they don't have the right weapons for. By throwing the maniac with a two-hander at it.
The cookie-cutter melee build starts with Strength 18 and Power Attack and an earthbreaker or greatsword. That's 2d6+9 damage per hit. Even the minimum roll is enough to penetrate hardness. Average damage is 16, more if it's a barbarian/bloodrager or a ranger with favored enemy.
Getting hold of adamantine, even if it is just a few arrows or bullets seems pretty key to survival in Numeric. Without it, a lone rampaging robot, even a weak one like a Collector can ravage a town. I would assume that seasoned adventurers like Dolga and Joram would be very aware of the importance of adamantine...
As it happens, Numerians have LOTS of barbarians. And favored enemy (construct) is a pretty obvious choice there as well.
I think you're doing your players a disservice if you give them adamantine weapons too soon or too cheap. They're one of the major treasures in this campaign precisely because they're so useful. If you give them to the players before they've struggled with robots with hardness then you're robbing them of that part of the story.
Mathmuse |
I think you're doing your players a disservice if you give them adamantine weapons too soon or too cheap. They're one of the major treasures in this campaign precisely because they're so useful. If you give them to the players before they've struggled with robots with hardness then you're robbing them of that part of the story.
Remember, the players write the story as much as the GM does. Instead of planning how they will defeat the collector robot, the GM has to give them opportunities where they can advance the story in their own way. Even if that requires changing the module.
If the party has a big burly barbarian or an incredibly strong fighter or a Shocking Grasp magus or a construct-fighting ranger, yes, let them proceed without adamantine weapons. They can handle the collector robot the way they want to play their characters.
If the party is made of blaster wizards or enchanter sorcerers or social bards or healbot clerics, they will be in trouble. Give them adamantine early.
If the party is clever and resourceful and knows to retreat when in trouble, the GM can let them figure out their own solution. That solution might be borrowing the adamantine weapons that they cannot afford.
Rozberry |
For those whose didn't get adamantine of any kind in Fires of Creation, how did your group beat the Collector Robots? They have hardness 10, which remember applies to spells also.
It was a combination of me frequently forgetting hardness on enemies and the paladin doing tons of damage with a falchion that was able to consistently overcome the hardness threshold. It also helped them that I messed up and let Smite Evil negate hardness when it was used.
I'm still relatively new to Pathfinder (only been GMing for a year and never played the game before that). My session notes document has a special "F*ck-Ups" section that I usually have to put something in after each session.
Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
For those whose didn't get adamantine of any kind in Fires of Creation, how did your group beat the Collector Robots? They have hardness 10, which remember applies to spells also.
The issues with Hardness in Fires Of Creation have been discussed elsewhere.
Given that back in Fires of Creation there were Adamantine Bolts and an Adamantine Dagger listed for sale in Torch, I'm kind of surprised that the PCs managed to get through the first two books without finding out that it's good against constructs.
Beyond that, a good place to "give" the PCs early ownership of a single Adamantine weapon would be as a reward for ...
Good thoughts would be an Adamantine Light Hammer, an Admantine Light Pick, or other (converted to weapon) metal working tool.
Evil Paul RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 |
The issues with Hardness in Fires Of Creation have been discussed elsewhere.
Yeah, I've read that thread and our party too had the "time out, lets talk about the hardness rules" conversation that I suspect is a rite of passage for Iron Gods campaigns.
My point was more an in-world thing. Robots are to Numeria what Undead is to Ustalav, and just as I would expect a bit more general knowledge amoung Ustalavian natives about common ways to deal with undead (clerics can turn, skeles need bashing etc) likewise I would expect the right sort of people in Numeria to mention adamantine and electricity attacks. Likewise places like Torch will sell bullets, scrolls, arrows etc and put them at the front of their shop.
Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |