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Greetings, I was looking at building a Ratfolk Alchemist for PFS, and i think a few archetypes are stackable and i want to be sure that these archetypes stack-
Chirurgeon loses Poison Use, Poison Resistance +4 [?], & Poison Immunity.
Crypt Breaker alters bombs & mutagens, and loses the Brew Potion/Extra Bombs feat and Persistent Mutagen
Dimensional Excavator alters Discoveries- by adding new extracts as additional discoveries.
So, the question is- Is it legal to stack these archetypes? Dimensional Excavator, as my rules-lawyer pointed out, alters Disoveries to the effect that it won't stack with any other archetype regardless that it doesn't interfere with other abilities the other archetypes alter or replace.
Thanks much.
And since we're talking about Alchemist here, one quick question regarding the Grenadier- They lose Poison Resist at second level, but it doesn't mention that they lose the high iterations of that ability- like in the Chirurgeon's "replaces Poison Resist +4".
So, do Grenadiers still get Poison Resist +4/+6 and likewise Chirurgeon's "Poison Resist +2/+6" at their respective levels?
Those three stack. Neither Crypt Breaker nor Chirurgeon alters discoveries at all.
The grenadier says 'This ability replaces poison resistance.' Which sounds like all parts, not just the +2. The chirurgeon says 'This ability replaces poison resistance +4.' by comparison, so they'd get the +2 at 2nd level and at 8th level the normal +6 would be reduced to +4.
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Infused Curative modifies how you prepare extracts.
Extradimensional Extract adds create pit to his list of extracts known.
Those seem similar to something that modifies Bardic Music works and something that modifies one bardic performance. It's also similar to adding a class skill to your class skill list and modifying a different class skill. We know from the FAQ both of these don't stack, so it seems to me these two alchemist abilities wouldn't stack.
Also keep in mind the "This modifies" and "This alters" are not designed to be the stacking tag. Most of the early archetypes don't even have these tags. So they are not all the information you need to consult to determine if they stack. When in doubt, ask your GM.
Infused Curative modifies how you prepare extracts.
Extradimensional Extract adds create pit to his list of extracts known.Those seem similar to something that modifies Bardic Music works and something that modifies one bardic performance. It's also similar to adding a class skill to your class skill list and modifying a different class skill. We know from the FAQ both of these don't stack, so it seems to me these two alchemist abilities wouldn't stack.
Also keep in mind the "This modifies" and "This alters" are not designed to be the stacking tag. Most of the early archetypes don't even have these tags. So they are not all the information you need to consult to determine if they stack. When in doubt, ask your GM.
They affect the same feature (extracts), but they replace features different from the one they're actually modifying, which is what the archetype stacking cares about: Replacing or modifying a feature more than once.
While it might make sense in this case, the intent is that you can't have two features that modify or replace the same feature in the whole "This replaces X" clauses.
So, if you have something that modifies Y, and replaces X, they stack. Only if they both affect X or Y would you not be able to stack said archetypes.
FAQ for easy reference.
Both James and Darksol make good points, but I think on balance I fall slightly more towards Darksol on this one. They are distinct enough that I struggle to see how they overlap. I'm simply not convinced that you can read Infused Curative so broadly that it modifies how you prepare all extracts.
Both James and Darksol make good points, but I think on balance I fall slightly more towards Darksol on this one. They are distinct enough that I struggle to see how they overlap. I'm simply not convinced that you can read Infused Curative so broadly that it modifies how you prepare all extracts.
Even if it does modify all extracts, it replaces a completely different feature, meaning if something else modifies extracts by actually replacing/modifying the extracts feature, they'd still stack together, since you only technically have one feature replacement.
Something that externally modifies a feature you possess via replacing another feature isn't grounds for disallowing the archetype combination.
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If you modify all Bardic Performances, then no archetype that modify one Bardic Performance will stack. So if you do modify all Extracts, then no extracts can be modified.
That is the key determination, does it modify all extracts? If yes, no they don't stack. If no, yes they stack.
If you modify all Bardic Performances, then no archetype that modify one Bardic Performance will stack. So if you do modify all Extracts, then no extracts can be modified.
That is the key determination, does it modify all extracts? If yes, no they don't stack. If no, yes they stack.
Nobody is saying you're wrong, but that's not happening in this context. Let's review the Chirurgeon feature again:
At 2nd level, a chirurgeon’s extracts of cure spells automatically act as infusions, and can be used by non-alchemists. When a chirurgeon prepares his extracts, he may choose to render any or all of his infused curatives inert and prepare other extracts to replace them (unlike infusions, which continue to occupy the alchemist’s daily extract slots until consumed or used). This ability replaces poison use.
The bolded part is what's being contended. The feature that modifies extracts only replaces Poison Use. It doesn't say "This ability modifies extracts and replaces Poison Use," as you're suggesting it does.
So, if I took another archetype that has a feature which says "This ability modifies Extracts," it'd stack with this one based on the text of it not saying the feature modifies the extracts, which means that feature doesn't count as modifying extracts for the purposes of archetype stacking.
Unless you're going to argue that the Chirurgeon was written poorly and should've included that text (which is entirely possible), the FAQ wouldn't require someone who took Chirurgeon to select another archetype that doesn't also modify extracts.
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Again, as has been said many times, the "This ability replaces" is not complete and most if not all of the original don't have those lines. So what it says with This ability replaces poison use doesn't mean it only modifies or replaces poison use.
Poison Use is not the same feature as Extracts (or even Alchemy as a whole, where Extracts come from), so suggesting that the rules outright stating it replaces Poison Use also refers to Alchemy as a whole when the feature being granted applies only to your extracts is outright disingenuous, and also not the intent of the FAQ, which is to deny characters taking two archetypes that replace/modify the same feature, via the "This alters/modifies/replaces X" clauses.
Also, saying they don't have those lines, or that they aren't purposefully not listed, is a bunch of crap. Since the Advanced Player's Guide, where archetypes were introduced, there have always been entries that explicitly stated what features are kept, what features you gain, and what those features replace. The only times that they aren't listed are with things like proficiencies, class skills, and other things like that. In those cases, it's obvious that they're additions, subtractions, or alterations to those features, and as such should clearly be considered them. But this isn't one of those features.
In fact, there are archetypes that give you abilities without trading anything at all, with no indicator as to whether it replaces something. Sniper Slayer gives you a 2nd level ability without saying it replaces the 2nd level Slayer talent, are you going to say that it does, just because you get it at 2nd level? You'd be wrong. And we have Dev confirmation to prove it.
So are we now going to argue that those sorts of archetypes all-of-a-sudden don't work with other features being replaced because they improve the other features you possess? If so, then quite frankly that FAQ needs a rewrite to convey that sort of intent, because as it's written, it doesn't really do that.
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Also keep in mind the "This modifies" and "This alters" are not designed to be the stacking tag. Most of the early archetypes don't even have these tags. So they are not all the information you need to consult to determine if they stack. When in doubt, ask your GM.
I agree. For a more authoritative opinion on these past deficiencies...
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Not all archetypes tell you what they alter, especially older ones before the idea to make altering clear even existed (they used to say they replaced things and then lead to confusion when it was really altering, or sometimes just say nothing). We've been trying to make sure we are thorough with the latest offerings in the RPG line.
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Infused Curative modifies how you prepare extracts.
Extradimensional Extract adds create pit to his list of extracts known.
My question to you is- How does "Infused Curative modify how you prepare extract?"
Infused Curatives just enables curative extracts to be doled out, as per the Infusion discovery. How does that modify preparation and usage of Extracts.
Nor does Chirurgeon alter how Extracts work.
There's an argument in regards to stacking some Magus archetypes, but that's for another thread.
He's saying that, because you're changed how curative extracts are doled out, you're changing the entirety of extracts (which is actually incorrect, since it only modifies cure extracts, functioning as a sub-section of extracts being modified and not the entire feature), which means you can't take any feature that alters extracts or alchemy whatsoever.
Which is BS, because that feature only replaces poison use. If the intent was that it modifies extracts as well, they would've printed it as such, like they do other features.
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Infused Curative only applies to curative extracts. Extradimensional Extract adds pit extracts, to which Infused Curative cannot apply. There's no overlap there IMO.
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i agree with darksol, if it was modifying extract or altering it, it would have been printed with saying it does, but it is printed by saying it only replace poison use, so it does not alter or modify or change extract
Let's try to stay on the issue, because saying how you think they write the rules doesn't match up with how they say they write the rules. See Gisher's post above. They simply don't write that it modifies or alters everything that modifies or alters most of the time. If you interpret things saying they modify or alter as the only things that modify or alter, you are missing most of the rules.
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How does "Infused Curative modify how you prepare extract?
At 2nd level, a chirurgeon’s extracts of cure spells automatically act as infusions, and can be used by non-alchemists. When a chirurgeon prepares his extracts, he may choose to render any or all of his infused curatives inert and prepare other extracts to replace them (unlike infusions, which continue to occupy the alchemist’s daily extract slots until consumed or used). This ability replaces poison use.
The bold line reads to me a modification to the extracts class ability, allowing you to change how some of your spells are expended/used.
Infused Curative only applies to curative extracts. Extradimensional Extract adds pit extracts, to which Infused Curative cannot apply. There's no overlap there IMO.
I agree 100%. I'd allow it in a game as a GM. I don't think the rules allow it, but at the very least I think it's something every player playing these combination of archetypes should be asking their GM. As I can see the Infusion Curative modifying "Bardic Music" and the Multidimensional Extract adding a new Bard song. If you see my parallel I'm drawing. We know things that modify a class feature with sub features doesn't stack with things that modify subfeatures.