Theme ability points don't actually do anything

[Knight Magenta]

So themes are cool. They also all grant you +1 to an ability score. As far as I can tell, odd ability scores are basically useless in Starfinder. Consider the following:

1. Only themes and level bumps to scores above 17 give you odd bonuses.
2. You only get better bonuses from even scores.
3. You can't start with more then an 18 in an ability score.
4. If you have a 17 in a stat and you put your level 5 bonus into it, it becomes 18. But if you had 16 in a stat, that same level 5 bump would have also brought you to 18.

The only ability score that cares about odd numbers is strength when calculating your maximum encumbrance. And I suppose ability damage.

You could argue that the theme ability point are flavor because your character is better then a similarly skilled person in that ability score, but that feels pretty narrow.

You can't even really claim that these points are for a future time where there will be effects that grant odd bonuses. I can't really see a situation where you care about an ability score enough to invest resources in it but not enough to put your level bumps into it...

Heck, since we did away with point buy, why not just remove base 10 ability scores all-together? just have the score be the modifier and give us 5 point buy.

[Xenocrat]

You can use it to qualify for feats.

[ShingenX]

Character generation Method 1 in the book still uses point buy. It worked pretty good for my players.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

... I'm not really seeing how given a point to an ability score that is probably relevant to your character is pointless. You might start with an odd number and use that to make it even (15>16), or later on once your past a score of 17 and you can only apply +1s through level up.

[Descrud]

I'm in a similar boat of thought. The base 10 is archaic and a holdover from the 3rd edition days. The only good I can think of from it is intelligence scores for figuring out when they can understand and speak languages (3 and 6 respectively). I'm of a mind to get rid of the stat increase from themes and have every score chosen for increases go up by 2 regardless of what the score is.

[pauljathome]

Xenocrat wrote:

You can use it to qualify for feats.

The themes are mostly there to round out your character and not for great mechanical bonuses. I think they're pretty much supposed to take the design space that traits originally took.

Giving you a class skill is nice, helps make some concepts gell a bit.

[nicholas storm]

An odd score in strength is useful for encumberance and can qualify you for 13STR feats easier.

[Torbyne]

So far my only thought about it is to get to 13 STR super early to take power armor or heavy weapons. neither are for all builds however and the extra bump will not affect gameplay for characters that actually plan on using the theme stat for more than a feat pre-req.

[Wikrin]

nicholas storm wrote:

An odd score in strength is useful for encumberance and can qualify you for 13STR feats easier.

Except you can only carry an amount of bulk equal to half your Strength score without being encumbered, and Starfinder always rounds down. It's incredibly unlikely to help with encumbrance.

That said, we rolled for stats and the theme bonus is the only reason I'm not rocking a 5 Strength. So, whatever.

[Knight Magenta]

@Xenocrat

That's a good point. Though it seems pretty narrow. I'm not even sure why odd ability scores being feat requirements makes sense.

@Rysky the Dark Solarion
My whole post was just answering this... You only get +1 if your stat is 17 or higher. You could use your theme point to make a 16 into a 17. Or you could not. But either way, you would get an 18 when your put your level 5 bump into that ability score.

Since you get 10 points for your point buy, if you buy an odd score and use your theme point to make it even, that means you will have a left over point to make something else odd.

@Torbyne
Heavy weapons require only a 12 strength. I can't find a strength requirement for heavy armor.

@pauljathome
Oh don't get me wrong. There is a lot to like about themes. But by dropping the odd point thing, maybe they could have saved enough room to add another theme! I was disappointed by the lack of a hacker theme for example.

[nicholas storm]

Heavy armor requires a 13STR.

An odd str does increase your encumbered capacity and mercenary gives you +1 str for CC at level 6. Also you can wear a consumer backpack for +1STR for CC (which is cheaper than wearing an industrial backpack). Obviously not a big advantage, but a 22 credit advantage.

[Descrud]

How big of a deal would it be if we either had the point buy be 11 or have the theme give a +2?

[GM Rednal]

I haven't really had the chance to go over the math or anything myself, but... I'm generally of the opinion that if a character creation option offers a choice, any benefits it gives should be consistently meaningful.

[Torbyne]

Knight Magenta,

Heavy Weapons, Heavy Armor and Powered Armor as feats all require 13 STR even if the individual items dont need it. i see no reason to not get heavy weapons for any non operative class that doesnt already include them, likewise for armor so for them the +1 in point buy lets them get to 13 STR by level 5 on pretty much any build plan.

[Porridge]

My take was that the odd ability score bump was largely to give your character an extra little bump of flavor

I.e., suppose you want to make a Mercenary Human Soldier who's good at ranged and melee stuff. So you decide to assign your 12 meaningful points as follows:

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10

Now you've got one point left that won't make much of a difference. But the fact that it won't make much of difference takes the pressure off, and allows you to just think of what allotment best fits you character concept.

Do you think of them as a sharper than average fighter, who makes careful use of tactics and strategy? Bump Int to 11.

Do you think of them as a determined warrior whose sheer will to get the job done distinguishes the from the average soldier? Or a sharp-eyed perceptive explorer, whose better than average at noticing important details? Bump Wis to 11.

Do you think of them as a kind of charming, popular type, someone who plays cards and jokes around with the his friends, and likes to crack one-liners in tense situations? Bump Cha to 11.

Or maybe you just want to think of them as being more strong than dexterous, or more agile than strong, or more tough than either. Then bump Str, Dex, or Con to 15.

So even though this choice doesn't have much effect on the game mechanically, it gives you a chance to flesh out the flavor of the character. In this respect it's much like the other features of your theme -- not very mechanically useful, but a nice bit of flavor to help you get a more concrete picture of what your character is like.

Anyway, that was my take on why they introduced the extra odd point. And I really like it.

[Voss]

Quote:

In this respect it's much like the other features of your theme -- not very mechanically useful, but a nice bit of flavor to help you get a more concrete picture of what your character is like.

With a very few exceptions (where the 6th level abilities aren't replicable by anything else in the rule set), I see them as more limiting rather than adding flavor.

Players can add any 'flavor' they like. Having to pick off a list of stereotypes for a couple mechanical bonuses and a stat increase that doesn't matter limits them far more than it encourages interesting concepts.

A +1 increase isn't noticeably stronger or wiser or whatever. That's a blurb of descriptive text that no one at the table is ever going to care about.

[Red Griffyn]

It serves a mechanical function in STR when you take the mercenary theme. At level 6 your carrying capacity counts as if you has 1 STR higher so an odd value in STR will net you an effective even STR to add capacity potentially. Throw in a backpack to up it by another +2 STR.

[Torbyne]

Red Griffyn wrote:

It serves a mechanical function in STR when you take the mercenary theme. At level 6 your carrying capacity counts as if you has 1 STR higher so an odd value in STR will net you an effective even STR to add capacity potentially. Throw in a backpack to up it by another +2 STR.

Sort of... remember that stats get weird between 16 and 18 so that odd point will even out, and probably at level 5, for any strength using build so the level 6 ability will only come into play if you expressly plan to keep your strength at 11, 13, 15 or 17.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

You can either buy up to an even number more easily in character creation or wait for your first level-based stat boost. I would not say it is worthless at all.

[GeneticDrift]

Except for when it does.

For mechanical reasons:
I counted 20 feats with odd stat prerequisites.

[Zanbabe]

Our GM did a prologue, and started us out captured in a prison where we were being experimented on, and when we finally busted out, we got a random +1 stat boost to one skill... which worked well at character creation in an interesting way, because then you had these two skills that had +1 kind of randomly, and you could build them up for a bonus if you wanted to. Made me stronger in areas where I wasn't really expecting to go, and made my character a little more balanced.

Making a character for another Starfinder game, and was really happy to have the extra where it ended up because I wanted a particular feat for this character. So, yeah, agree that it isn't perfect for stat bonuses, but it helps a lot with flavor. Also... maybe it makes you feel less horrible about only moving an 18 to a 19 at a later stat boost, because you still have that "extra" one sitting around, so it doesn't hurt you?

[LuniasM]

It's not so much that the +1 isn't nice, it's that it forces you to have at least one odd ability score. Since all races grant bonuses and penalties in increments of 2 and you are given 10 points for ability scores, there's no way to make the +1 bonus from your theme an even score without turning another score odd.

The way the ability score boost increases now, +2 until you hit 17 or higher, means that odd scores will only be of any use in the event that you A) use it to qualify for a feat, B) put it into Strength for better carrying capacity / armor usage, or C) take ability penalties or damage at some point. Sure, there's uses for it, but it just looks wrong after so many years of playing Pathfinder. That's going to take some getting used to, at least for me.

[Jhaeman]

It is very unusual. Ability score generation was one of the last things revised before the book was sent to the printers, so I wonder if they didn't catch that a +1 from theme was no longer useful except in very particular circumstances. Perhaps when everyone's back at work, one of the designers can weigh in on the thought process here.

[tlotig]

only use I can see for it is qualifying for feats,
start at int 13 so you can get to 15 and get Technomancy dabbler, life bubble seems an important spell

[River of Sticks]

Tlotig just found the perfect use for the theme +1! Doesn't matter what it goes to, it frees up an odd point to go there. Or Wisdom, for Connection Inkling. Whichever, so long as ALL my characters get psychokinetic hand at will...

[Ventnor]

Or Charisma, if you'd like a few psychic spell-like abilities.

[LuniasM]

Because I had the time, here's a list of the feats organized by ability scores that have minimum stat requirements that a Theme's +1 could help you reach.

Feat List:

STR 13 - Cleave, Great Cleave, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Powered Armor Proficiency, Heavy Weapon Proficiency

DEX 13 - Mobility, Step Up and Strike,
DEX 15 - Shot on the Run, Parting Shot, Sidestep, Mobility, Nimble Moves, Slippery Shooter
DEX 17 - Improved Sidestep

INT 15 - Technomantic Dabbler

WIS 15 - Connection Inkling

CHA 11 - Minor Psychic Power
CHA 13 - Psychic Power
CHA 15 - Major Psychic Power, Veiled Threat

Primary Stat 15 - Agile Casting

[LuniasM]

Just saw I have Mobility on my list twice - I can't edit it now, but it should be at DEX 13.

[gustavo iglesias]

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

You can either buy up to an even number more easily in character creation or wait for your first level-based stat boost. I would not say it is worthless at all.

I think the OP point is that if you buy up your ability to a even number, you do so by leaving anithe stat at odd.

For example let's say you are a human soldier with

14str 14dex 12con, 10 to int, wis and cha.

Your race bump str to 16, thene to 17. Ypu could bump it to 18, but then you will have either con 11 or dex 13. You could also spend 1 point less, leaving str at 16 (as 16 and 17 is the same for leveling purposes). But then you will have an extra point somewhere else (like 11 in cha, int or wis, or 13 in con or 15 in Dex), but not enough to matter.

The only way it might matter is if you have a feat that need an odd number. «saving a point» or «buying up» just mean you have a different odd number in other ability.

Fir those who roll the stats, this might help, as it can mean you even an off roll

[HWalsh]

It isn't mechanically useless...

Imagine you make a character that gets:

+2 Strength from Human
+1 Strength from Mercenary

Your starting base array looks like this:

13,10,10,10,10,10

You spend your 10 points as follows:

+3 Strength
+3 Dex
+4 Constitution

Your array ends up looking like:

16,13,14,10,10,10

You know you're going to be a melee monster so you are all set so that you can get Step up, and later Step up and Strike, without having to use one of your precious Ability Score Increases to get the Dexterity 13 requirement.

There are tons that require Strength 13, or Dex 13, or Dex 15/17, those are all odd numbers. Those all are feat requirements. I am 100% certain that the +1 rather than +2 was there to prevent stat maxing and to encourage a slight diversity of design.

[captain yesterday]

I used mine to offset my penalty to charisma for my Shirren Solarion.

[Rub-Eta]

With theme bonus you can make a 14 into a 15. At level 5, you increase it to 17 and at level 10 to 18 .
Without theme bonus, you sit at 14. At level 5, you increase it to 16 and at level 10 to 17.

[Shinigami02]

HWalsh wrote:

You know you're going to be a melee monster so you are all set so that you can get Step up, and later Step up and Strike, without having to use one of your precious Ability Score Increases to get the Dexterity 13 requirement.

Considering that ability score increases now apply to 4 stats at a time, and for lower stats are +2 boosts, Max Dex is generally high enough even in Heavy Armor and ranged is ubiquitous enough that I'd imagine even most melee would probably want to put one of their 4 boosts each boosting level into Dex. Heck, I expect most martially-inclined boosts to be something along the lines of Str/Dex/Con/*Relevant Mental Stat* (probably Int for Operatives or those who care about skills, Wis for those that don't care so much for skills, and Cha for those that need it like Solarions and Envoys.)

[whew]

Rub-Eta wrote:

With theme bonus you can make a 14 into a 15. At level 5, you increase it to 17 and at level 10 to 18 .

Without theme bonus, you sit at 14. At level 5, you increase it to 16 and at level 10 to 17.

16 increases to 18, not 17.

[Ventnor]

Shinigami02 wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

You know you're going to be a melee monster so you are all set so that you can get Step up, and later Step up and Strike, without having to use one of your precious Ability Score Increases to get the Dexterity 13 requirement.

Considering that ability score increases now apply to 4 stats at a time, and for lower stats are +2 boosts, Max Dex is generally high enough even in Heavy Armor and ranged is ubiquitous enough that I'd imagine even most melee would probably want to put one of their 4 boosts each boosting level into Dex. Heck, I expect most martially-inclined boosts to be something along the lines of Str/Dex/Con/*Relevant Mental Stat* (probably Int for Operatives or those who care about skills, Wis for those that don't care so much for skills, and Cha for those that need it like Solarions and Envoys.)

At the very least, it lets you qualify for those feats earlier in your adventuring career rather than later.

[QuidEst]

I really like being able to bump strength to an odd number for the extra bulk of carrying capacity.

[kaid]

Wikrin wrote:

nicholas storm wrote:

An odd score in strength is useful for encumberance and can qualify you for 13STR feats easier.

Except you can only carry an amount of bulk equal to half your Strength score without being encumbered, and Starfinder always rounds down. It's incredibly unlikely to help with encumbrance.

That said, we rolled for stats and the theme bonus is the only reason I'm not rocking a 5 Strength. So, whatever.

There are edge cases where this can be useful. There are some things that basically give you the bonus of treat your strength as +1 higher for calculating enc. So with an odd str plus that it could bump you one notch higher. Also when you do the default buy of 10 points to put to whatever you want if you know what theme you are going for you can set your theme boosted stat with one less point than you otherwise would which puts it back up to your target and gives you another point to apply elsewhere.

[Yakman]

the theme is supposed to be like a trait from Pathfinder.

they aren't super helpful, but they are nice to have.

[GM Rednal]

@Yakman: Well, I know traits were generally consistent, permanent benefits. Reactionary's +2 to Initiative, for example, probably wasn't getting blocked by anything else.

Of course, if the theme ability points are only meant to sort of pad people up slightly and help them unlock feats before being overwritten by normal boosts, that's actually fine and I don't mind it. The key point is that it should be intentional, though, not an oversight where people may end up losing a benefit they're intended to have. I'm not quite sure which it is... although maybe the Theme Point is supposed to be added after all other increases, including ones received later...? Then it would definitely be a consistent benefit...

[QuidEst]

kaid wrote:

Wikrin wrote:

nicholas storm wrote:

An odd score in strength is useful for encumberance and can qualify you for 13STR feats easier.

Except you can only carry an amount of bulk equal to half your Strength score without being encumbered, and Starfinder always rounds down. It's incredibly unlikely to help with encumbrance.

That said, we rolled for stats and the theme bonus is the only reason I'm not rocking a 5 Strength. So, whatever.

There are edge cases where this can be useful. There are some things that basically give you the bonus of treat your strength as +1 higher for calculating enc. So with an odd str plus that it could bump you one notch higher. Also when you do the default buy of 10 points to put to whatever you want if you know what theme you are going for you can set your theme boosted stat with one less point than you otherwise would which puts it back up to your target and gives you another point to apply elsewhere.

Why would you round down before comparison, though? If you round down in the middle of multiple operations, things break.

[Indi523]

OK so we are looking at themes that give you specific abilities to detect or know about specific items such as vehicles and famous pilots, etc. and can give you two class skills that your class does not grant you or a +1 if it does and the best we can do with that is:

:::: Whine that the +1 free benefit given with the theme does not lend itself well to rules engineering and munchinization of our characters.

Am I missing something here.....

[Yakman]

GM Rednal wrote:

@Yakman: Well, I know traits were generally consistent, permanent benefits. Reactionary's +2 to Initiative, for example, probably wasn't getting blocked by anything else.

Of course, if the theme ability points are only meant to sort of pad people up slightly and help them unlock feats before being overwritten by normal boosts, that's actually fine and I don't mind it. The key point is that it should be intentional, though, not an oversight where people may end up losing a benefit they're intended to have. I'm not quite sure which it is... although maybe the Theme Point is supposed to be added after all other increases, including ones received later...? Then it would definitely be a consistent benefit...

why would you lose anything by choosing a theme?

you clearly get something from picking one. the themeless is intentionally weaker and less interesting.

and the starfinder book is set up with themes first for a reason - people should think about what type of sci-fantasy character they want to play and then get into the crunch.

[LuniasM]

On the upside, this means that the theme you take doesn't actually have to have an ability score that matches your class's ability scores. Since the +1s aren't useful save for fringe cases (like feat qualifications or an extra maximum Bulk) it doesn't really matter which one you take. That's probably for the best.

[Velisruna]

Another vote for the odd boost being useful for feat prereqs. My Solarian starts with 13 dex to take the step up feats before level 5 and my soldier starts with 13 wisdom to grab connection inkling at level 5. Having built characters in pathfinder who needed odd scores in some stats for feats, it's nice to not need to reduce your main scores for no benifit other than qualifying for a feat.

[Aralicia]

LuniasM wrote:

On the upside, this means that the theme you take doesn't actually have to have an ability score that matches your class's ability scores. Since the +1s aren't useful save for fringe cases (like feat qualifications or an extra maximum Bulk) it doesn't really matter which one you take. That's probably for the best.

If it doesn't matter which one you take because the +1 isn't useful save for fringe cases, then there's little point in having it at all. Themes already grant advantages that are interesting enough, and notable enough to give them (narrative) weight. That +1 is unneeded.

[GM Rednal]

@Yakman: I think the point wasn't that you're losing something by picking a theme, but that the benefit you gained might be lost at a later level. In many cases, if people acquire something at character creation, they expect to keep that thing. If they're playing a Human, they expect to keep their +1 skill point/level. If they're playing a Shirren, they expect that 6 HP. Unless, y'know, there's something specifically trading those out and they're doing it on purpose.

Again, if it's intentional that a benefit might be overwritten on many characters, I have absolutely no problem with that as a component of game design. I just figure people should be aware of such an overwrite happening, if indeed it is, so they can plan accordingly. On the other hand, if it was a genuine error and characters are told to lose something they were meant to have... then I figure it should be fixed and errata'd. Quickly.

[Edenwaith]

I ignore the ability increase for themes and just look at what class skill I can pick up. I don't choose themes for any other reason.

[Deadmanwalking]

Edenwaith wrote:

I ignore the ability increase for themes and just look at what class skill I can pick up. I don't choose themes for any other reason.

The 6th level abilities are also very relevant. The 12th and 18th level ones somewhat less so, but still a little.

[GeneticDrift]

I just wish the cool and thematic 18th level perks happened at a much lower level. The coolest rp feature of themes probably wont come online in most games.

[pauljathome]

I'm just looking forward to their being WAY more themes. Right now, they're going to get very old very quickly in SFS play ("Oh, you're another hotshot pilot eh? Already got 2 of those in the party")

I really like the concept and think they'll do really well once there are enough of them that every character will likely have different ones. They're what traits were SUPPOSED to be.

Quite a few of my characters (not played, just made up :-() are largely defined by their themes from a roleplaying perspective. Grabbing the Xenoseeker theme for my operative changed him substantially.