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So I've been toying around with ideas for a Ruins of Azlant character... moustached, tropical-helmet-wearing scholar touting an obnoxious anachronistic R-rolling British accent who just happens to be a fairly competent «sportsman» at the gentleman's blade.
I've been wanting to try out the Unchained Rogue for a while, and that seems like a good opportunity. My idea is to invest in EWP: Estoc and pick it as my Dex-to-damage weapon. I could then two-hand it for charges, AoOs, etc. as well as TWF with a main-gauche when the opportunity presents itself (would probably need Quick Draw to make that work smoothly, or a prehensile tail to keep the dagger at hand). I wouldn't get Dex on the off-hand, but that shouldn't matter all that much with SA on it. The estoc is also well suited for underwater combat.
Sound reasonable? Does anyone have play experience with the estoc?
I suppose I could branch into Investigator after URogue 4 (Debilitating Strike), since that would help the «scholar» part of the concept and give me some access to magic (and a juicy mutagen!). The inspiration thing sounds like a decent consolation prize for stopping SA progression, though the 5-level delay is annoying. However, the estoc allows for Furious Focus, so I could just Power Attack for damage when not TWFing.
Or I could take Vivisectionist after URogue 4, which is less scholarly but continues SA... I've played a Vivi before, though — Beastmorph, so a bit different in flavor, but still, perhaps something newer wouldn't be wrong.
Or I could take a level of Urban Bloodrager for a Dex rage and access to arcane wands and stick with URogue for the most part...
If I leave the estoc aside, a Knife Master URogue/Investigator could also be fun.
I would probably just dual-wield rapiers with Effortless Lace, if that's possible. Dip-wise, the character sounds like Weapon Master 4 would work well. You can grab Weapon Specialization if you want, up to two of the Advanced Weapon Training feats from Weaponmaster's Handbook, and Accomplished Sneak Attacker if you want to save a sneak die. Plus, Weapon Training 1 becomes +3 with Gloves of dueling, which is a huge help.
I'm not sure it fits the character at all, but one of the most spectacular combos for URogue has to be Druid 4 with Shaping Focus, so you can spend all day as a humanoid, weapon wielding air elemental with a +4DEX and a 60 foot fly speed. Bully!
Using a two-handed finessable weapon is a fine alternative to two-weapon fighting for an Unchained Rogue, since you get 1.5x dex to damage when doing so. Personally I like it better than two weapon fighting. Fewer feats, better to-hit, more mobility.
One option that you shouldn't be too quick to dismiss is the Fighter. Between the Lore Warden archetype and the versatile training advanced weapon training option, you can get a lot of skill ranks from a Fighter these days. All this comes with the normal combat power you can expect from a Fighter.
One interesting option you might consider is to stick with Unchained Rogue and use the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype. This trades away a lot of Rogue Talents, Sneak Attack, and Skill Points, but tacks on spellcasting abilities right into the class with no multiclassing. Works very well with your estoc approach, too.
The other options you've mentioned all sound like they'd work fine. I'm a little hesitant about Alchemist and Investigator (if I'm going to go with a 3/4 BAB class, I'd personally prefer to just stay URogue) but they should work if that's what you want. Urban Barbarian/Bloodrager to bolster that dexterity score would work nicely.
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BadBird: Effortless Lace just strikes me as a really bad piece of game design, it basically breaks the carefully constructed building of weapon classes and just looks really stupid (swashbuckling with a greataxe...?). I'd rather not use it. A case of rapiers also lacks the estoc's ability to get 1.5x damage while not TWFing. If I'd TWF, I'd probably get daggers and pay Obedience to Pharasma and perhaps be a River Rat... and Piranha Strike rather than Power Attack...
Yes, Weapon Training and Specialization sound nice, but are they a match for the mutagen, studied combat, and Heroism (and lots of other extract options?)
I wasn't aware of Accomplished Sneak Attacker; nice! :)
The Druid thing sounds fun but is way out of character for this guy. I wonder if the Shifter would be an even better match for such shenanigans?
Dasrak: Cool, so you have experience with 1.5x Dex to damage on an URogue? How is that working out? Do you also use Power Attack?
The Eldritch Scoundrel sounds really weird, and loses half its SA... sounds like a poor man's Vivisectionist. ;o)
Effortless Lace doesn't work on two-handed weapons. The main use people have for it is to dual wield a couple larger swords without the extra TWF penalty.
Weapon Specialization, +3 (gloves) Weapon Training and no BAB loss over 4 Fighter levels equates to a +5 damage and +4 attack bonus that's always active; and Advanced Weapon Training can do things like grant a shield bonus based on weapon enhancement or a will bonus based on weapon training. So it's pretty good.
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Dasrak: Cool, so you have experience with 1.5x Dex to damage on an URogue? How is that working out? Do you also use Power Attack?
Not much more to say than what I already did. It's a simple, solid approach to getting the kinds of numbers you want to see in combat and looks cool while doing it.
I would not recommend power attack. The Rogue already has reduced attack bonus built-in, and taking that again with power attack is painful. That 13 strength is also annoying unless you have a generous point buy, since the Unchained Rogue really doesn't care for a strength score higher than 10.
The Eldritch Scoundrel sounds really weird, and loses half its SA... sounds like a poor man's Vivisectionist. ;o)
Vivisectionist doesn't get finesse training or debilitating strike, and extracts don't have nearly the breadth of options you'll get out of the wizard/sorcerer spell list. They really are very different options.
Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty interesting. They can use Vanishing Trick with first level spell slots instead of Ki, and Wizard spells offer all kinds of useful things - even Dazzling Blade to swift-action blind.
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I would not recommend power attack. The Rogue already has reduced attack bonus built-in, and taking that again with power attack is painful. That 13 strength is also annoying unless you have a generous point buy, since the Unchained Rogue really doesn't care for a strength score higher than 10.
There's always Furious Focus to offset the penalty when using an estoc, and after 7th level I'd have a mutagen and after 8th a potion of Heroism to alchemically allocate, so my to-hit should be decent.
The 13 Str is a problem, but then again, I always feel rather naked with a Str-dumped character. At least it would help my damage until I got Dex to damage at 3rd.
Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty interesting. They can use Vanishing Trick with first level spell slots instead of Ki, and Wizard spells offer all kinds of useful things - even Dazzling Blade to swift-action blind.
That is nice... but then again, they can't wear armor and have weak SA. I find it hard to predict whether the benefits would outweigh the downsides.
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Mage Armor and Sense Vitals. Or Haramaki/Silken Ceremonial Armor with a Mithral Buckler.
Then you can add in feats like Dodge and Accomplished Sneak Attacker.
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There's always Furious Focus to offset the penalty when using an estoc
Furious Focus isn't as good as it looks. The problem is that it only applies to attacks made at your highest attack bonus, which are already the ones most likely to hit. This creates a rather annoying catch-22 when you're performing a full attack: any time you could make good use the accuracy boost on your first attack, you cannot afford the accuracy penalty on your iterative attacks. That's not to say that furious focus is a useless feat, but it's not good enough to make power attack into an attractive option for characters that wouldn't normally pick it.
The 13 Str is a problem, but then again, I always feel rather naked with a Str-dumped character. At least it would help my damage until I got Dex to damage at 3rd.
Nothing wrong with 10 strength. That leaves you with no damage penalty at lower levels and a comfortable carrying capacity. Those 3 build points can be used to push a 12 to a 14 in a more important stat instead.
That is nice... but then again, they can't wear armor and have weak SA. I find it hard to predict whether the benefits would outweigh the downsides
They get the Mage Armor spell at low levels, and at higher levels regular URogues run into issues with max dex bonus so in practice they're stuck with the same armor restrictions. The Sneak Attack loss isn't as painful as it sounds since finesse training gives you a reliable damage source, and you can always buy it back with Accomplished Sneak Attacker if you really want.
Honestly, if the Eldritch Scoundrel didn't have such severe downsides it would be ludicrously overpowered. 6 level spellcasting off the best spell list in the game is no joke of a class feature.
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Eldritch Scoundrel can use things like: Persistent Dazzling Blade, Glitterdurst, Sense Vitals, Heroism, Contageous Zeal and Greater Invisibility to name a few obvious spells. They aren't messing around.
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I've been playing an Elven Branched Spear wielding Half-elf Rogue through Emerald Spire. I'm liking it a lot, actually. it's one of my harder hitting martial characters, even before taking Sneak Attack into account. I took a dip into Snakebite Brawler to be able to threaten adjacent, speed up my BAB progression a little, and so I wouldn't need a 13 INT for Combat Expertise (to be able to take Gang Up).
Going off the top of my head, I believe at level 5 my attacks look like:
Elven Branched Spear: +12 (1d8+16/x3) with 3d6 sneak when I can get it. Gang up helps a lot with that. Also +1 damage when flanking from the Dirty Fighter trait, which comes into play a lot thanks to Gang Up as well.
1) Power Attack (Brawler Level, so +1 BAB)
B1) Improved Unarmed Strike
B1) EWP: Elven Branched Spear (Half-Elf alternate racial trait)
B2) Weapon Finesse
3) Combat Expertise
RT2) Combat Trick: Gang Up
5) Furious Focus
RT4) Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Elven Branched Spear
I started with a 13 STR and a 19 DEX, bumped DEX at 4 and bought a Belt of Dex +2 somewhere around 4 or 5. Having the 13 STR was a big help at early levels, though since I was playing Emerald Spire, I didn't have to deal with not having Dex to damage for quite so long in real world time, even after taking the level dip. It was the equivalent of 3 scenarios instead of 9 if I hadn't been playing modules.
I took Furious Focus, because unlike other classes, Rogues don't have any in-class abilities to boost accuracy. Again, Gang-up helps with that, but I do have worries that even my primary attack might have trouble hitting at later levels when using Power Attack if I don't have Furious Focus. Having it just puts me closer to on par with most 3/4 BAB classes for that first attack. There might be more interesting feats to take, but on an Unchained Rogue two-handing a weapon, I think the Power Attack/Furious Focus combination makes sense.
EDIT: The 13 STR also gives me some damage bonus when I'm using unarmed strike, even if just a small one. I might bump it at 8th, though since this character will hopefully go all the way through the Spire, sticking to boosting Dex is probably the wiser path.
Anyway, I'm having a lot more fun with the character than I thought I might.
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This is my estoc wielding Unchained Rogue/Investigator. I originally took the rogue levels to have some offense for my planned 8 levels of Invest. Instead of Power attack, have you considered Piranha Strike? I have found that having access to Shield and Longarm help my defense. The build will eventually buy/add the Vanishing property to my Wayfinder, allowing for more Flat -footed attacks (circumventing the lower BAB).
I was told by a PFS GM that you cannot get 1.5 Dex to damage on finesse weapons. Can anyone show me the thread that states I can do this? I would really love the extra four points of damage.
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Its an FAQ for Pathfinder Unchained.
Unchained Rogue Finesse Training: When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon? What about an off-hand weapon?
With a two-handed weapon, you add 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls, and with an off-hand weapon, you add half your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls. As per the ability's text, if an effect would prevent you from adding your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you don't add your Dexterity modifier. However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.
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This is my estoc wielding Unchained Rogue/Investigator. I originally took the rogue levels to have some offense for my planned 8 levels of Invest. Instead of Power attack, have you considered Piranha Strike? I have found that having access to Shield and Longarm help my defense. The build will eventually buy/add the Vanishing property to my Wayfinder, allowing for more Flat -footed attacks (circumventing the lower BAB).
I was told by a PFS GM that you cannot get 1.5 Dex to damage on finesse weapons. Can anyone show me the thread that states I can do this? I would really love the extra four points of damage.
You also can't use Piranha Strike with an Estoc. Contrary to what might seem logical, Piranha Strike can only be used with light weapons, not any weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse.
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You also can't use Piranha Strike with an Estoc. Contrary to what might seem logical, Piranha Strike can only be used with light weapons, not any weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse.
A good balancing choice, methinks. It helps keep Str relevant for Swashbucklers and the like.
I have indeed considered going the Piranha Strike route, maybe with daggers, Knife Master, and the Pharasma obedience, and the River Rat trait. :) That would also be compatible with Brawler's Flurry. I do like the idea of the Snakebite Striker as a dip; I'm amazed they printed a full-BAB class with Sneak Attack at 1st...
I'll make a sample build for daggers and for the estoc and see which one I like better. :)
Snakebite Striker 3 is a perfect multiclass option for a Rogue or Ninja. Brawler's Flurry counts as having Two-Weapon Fighting for all purposes and prerequisites, which means that you can base Two-Weapon Feint off of it and take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting that works with your flurry even if you only take 3 levels of Brawler. So a Snakebite Striker 3 character can feint as they move up to a foe to strike with their special ability, and they can make flurry attacks that begin with a feint. Once Greater Feint comes online, they're feinting machines.
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Snakebite Brawler trades out Martial Flexibility for the extra sneak attack die, and in general Martial Flexibility is more valuable. So from that standpoint, it's a fair trade. But then getting Martial Flexibility at 1st level on a full bab dip is pretty amazing, too.
I was honestly torn between going Snakebite Brawler and just going with the normal Brawler dip. Either one would be a great addition, since you can Martial Flexibility to get Dedicated Adversary (provided someone identifies the creature), and a +2 hit/+2 dmg is probably worth more in the long run than the extra sneak die. But I decided to keep it simpler. It basically means you're a level ahead on your sneak progression. 2 dice at 2nd, 3 at 4th, 4 at 6th, instead of 3rd, 5th, and 7th. At those levels, you're just equal to a single class unchained rogue.
Mutagenic Mauler is also a great dip as +4 DEX means +2 hit/dmg/AC/reflex/dex skills and lots of other things. Plus natural armor. The Wis penalty hurts a little on a build that doesn't get much to help Will saves.
EDIT: Yeah, if you can go 3 levels in Snakebite Striker, you get some great abilities for a Rogue. My thoughts above are for a 1 level dip.
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I'm really liking the idea of a single-dagger Rogue using the Snakebite's Brawler's Flurry to get TWF-like attacks while even having a hand free for a heavy shield (!). Something like this (URSK = Unchained Rogue Scout Knifemaster, SSB = Snakebite Striker Brawler):
1 URSK Weapon Focus (dagger), Slashing Grace (dagger); Finesse Training
2 SBB
3 SBB Divine Obedience: Pharasma, Toughness; Brawler's Flurry
4 URSK
5 URSK Iron Will, retrain Slashing Grace to Piranha Strike; Finesse Training (Dex to dmg, dagger)
6 URSK Debilitating Injury, Scout's Charge
7+ URSK or switch to Vivisectionist (probably better)
Why are you sure that you qualify for ITWF with Brawler's Flurry, and that it should increase the Flurry? The Flurry is a class feature, not a TWF bonus feat.
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the wording in Knife Master doesn't just turn my Rogue's SA into d8's; it changes the way SA works for me in general, so the Snakebite and Vivisectionist contributions would also benefit.
having a hand free for a heavy shield (!)
Personally I much prefer the light shield to the heavy shield, and I rarely use the heavier version. With a heavy shield your hand is occupied so you cannot use it for anything, and if you're holding a weapon in your other hand this leaves you with no free hands to perform simple tasks like drinking a potion or opening a door. With a light shield your hand can still hold items. It's a free action to swap a weapon from one hand to the other, meaning you can swap the weapons, take whatever action you need to, then swap back. You effectively have a free hand to perform actions that require it whenever you aren't actively making attacks. Personally I find this is almost always worth the loss of 1 point of AC, so I take the light shield over the heavy.
Otherwise that looks like a perfectly fine build.
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Looks pretty good. Some things you are probably aware of... Slashing Grace does not work with Brawler's Flurry. It also does not work when using a light or heavy shield. Only a buckler.
For level 1 that doesn't matter, since you won't have flurry. For levels 2-4, that means you can't use a light or heavy shield if you want dex-to-damage, and you also won't get dex-to-damage when you flurry.
At level 5, everything should work fine together.
I'm unsure about knife master affecting sneak attack from other classes. I'd discuss that with your GM.
You get Improved Unarmed Strike at 2. Don't forget about that. :) I know you probably didn't list it because you won't use it much.
Outslug Style might go well with this build at higher levels. It's a lot of feats to get there, but once you have Outslug sprint, you can move 10 feet as a 5 foot step, which I think will trigger one sneak attack from Skirmisher or let you get into flanking position easier and still make a full attack. Plus there are some small damage and AC bonuses along the way.
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Looks pretty good. Some things you are probably aware of... Slashing Grace does not work with Brawler's Flurry. It also does not work when using a light or heavy shield. Only a buckler.
Bucklers are just as good as light shields here... but not being able to flurry with Slashing Grace is a bummer. I guess it's still worth it to flurry for the 2d8 SA at that level. Good thing Finesse Training works at least.
I'm unsure about knife master affecting sneak attack from other classes. I'd discuss that with your GM.
The wording just says «when you sneak attack» etc., so it sounds transferable. But I guess it's not foolproof.
Outslug Style might go well with this build at higher levels. It's a lot of feats to get there, but once you have Outslug sprint, you can move 10 feet as a 5 foot step, which I think will trigger one sneak attack from Skirmisher or let you get into flanking position easier and still make a full attack. Plus there are some small damage and AC bonuses along the way.
Actually, Skirmisher says «more than 10 feet», so it doesn't help. But a 10' 5'-step is certainly useful for setting up flanks. Four feats though...?
Looks pretty good. Some things you are probably aware of... Slashing Grace does not work with Brawler's Flurry.
Missed that one. I am way too use to the flat "dex-to-damage is allowed as a feat" gameplay that makes such builds easy. Why make players jump through hoops to play what they want and be competent at it?
But yeah, bucklers are a fine equipment choice anyways and the difference between a buckler and light shield is very fine-grained. If you've got a good reason (slashing grace is a very good reason) to go with one or the other, then don't even think twice about it.
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All this hassle makes me see the point in the estoc build again. At least there I don't lose as much when I have to move in order to establish a flank. I remember flanks being rather difficult to get consistently back when I played a Beastmorph Vivi in Shattered Star. It didn't matter much to him, though, since he got Dex to damage with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and could afford to Power Attack...
What would you suggest for the estoc build? Just a level or two of Urban Bloodrager for a bit of Dex rage and access to arcane wands? Or maybe a bit of Paladin...?
I did start writing up a build for a Unchained Rogue/Investigator, but it took way too long for my taste for the Investigator levels to pay off. I'd get Mutagen at 7th and Studied Strike at 9th.
Why are people talking about Slashing Grace on an Unchained Rogue? That makes no sense.
There was developer commentary a while ago about how Brawler's Flurry actually says you have Two-Weapon Fighting while using it, which means it's like a Ranger style feat - you have it for all purposes so long as you meet the conditions of use.
One thing to consider if going Snakebite 3 is that you can easily be using a mithral breastplate (armor expert for zero ACP) and a shield, so being DEX-based isn't a requirement. You could take Ninja for the Ki attacks and tricks, but theme it as a more conventional Rogue - though maybe one wielding a 9-ring broadsword if you wanted a cool weapon.
In the level progression he listed, he's taking Slashing Grace at 1st, then retraining it at 5th when he finally gets Dex-to-damage from Finesse Training.
Ah. On a multiclass URogue, I would probably just start with 3 URogue, but that explains it anyhow.
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Ah. On a multiclass URogue, I would probably just start with 3 URogue, but that explains it anyhow.
I figure I'd want a way to deal relevant damage from 1st level. Either TWF or Dex to damage, to be retrained once the class features kick in. I don't like being a liability for a few levels... pity that most Dex-to-damage deals start like that!
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Sneak attack is your way to deal relevant damage from first level. You might run into a small elemental or an ooze or something, but most things you encounter at 1st-3rd level won't be immune to sneak attack.
Waiting 5 levels for dex-to-damage is rough, though. I've done it on a couple of characters while I was waiting to be able to afford Agile. In both cases I ultimately found a temporary solution like you are. Slashing Grace on my whip wielding Unchained Monk/Warpriest who can't flurry with the whip until 5th anyway, and an Occultist dip on my Magus for Legacy Weapon (eventually using it for Bane). But you don't need it to be relevant. Especially on an Unchained Rogue two-handing a weapon with Power Attack.
2nd level damage on my rogue was something like 1d8+5+2d6 with a flank, which was plenty. And still enough to power through DR if I didn't get a sneak attack.
I also played a TWF ninja that used fighting fans and feinting. Same damage as a dagger, minus all the River Rat/Pharasma Obedience bonuses. She was fine against everything but elementals until I could afford Agile. I just had to be very active in finding ways to get sneak attack off. Either tumbling for flanks, or starting at 3rd using two-weapon feint. I'd pretty reliably get 1 sneak a round, sometimes 3 (including ki attack). The toughest part of that character was waiting until second for finesse, because retraining didn't exist yet and I needed to use a ninja talent for it instead of a feat. Elementals remained an issue all the way through 12th. Even with dex to damage and piranha strike, it's still just 1d4+7dex+1enhancement+6piranha strike=1d4+14, but by that point, you're looking at elementals having 10 or 15 DR/-.
Anyway, I think you'll be fine with either build. The estoc build is better for damage when you can't sneak or for powering through DR. The dagger with flurry will probably top out at higher damage when you get all of your sneak attacks off.
For a spring attack build, which is a good option for a scout, I'd probably go with the estoc, because you'll be making 1 attack per round most rounds, so maximizing the damage from that one attack would be best.
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I wasn't worried about relevant damage with the estoc; at least it has decent base damage to start with, and Dex and PA are going to do the rest when SA should be unavailable. Daggers are really puny though, even with Dex on them...
I figure by 11th level I could have Dex to damage on both the estoc and daggers, so I could quickdraw daggers to TWF along with the estoc when the opportunity is ripe. Or just TWF with UAS if I took Snakebite levels; that would still allow me to do 1.5 Dex damage on AoOs etc.
Pity there's no finessable double weapon (that I know of)...
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I've just been wondering whether there could be a way to get an extra attack in the style of Brawler's Flurry for the estoc build. Perhaps Magus would work (Spellstrike), but I'd have a bad concentration check and fail to get the extra attack a lot of times. Are there any similar options that might work better? I suppose if it's too much of a hassle, I might as well just draw a left-hand dagger and TWF.
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Ferious Thrune, you mentioned an Occultist dip... wow, that looks spectacularly appropriate for my Rogue plans. The voodoo vibe would also fit the skull-facepaint-wearing Pharasmin knife master extremely well, particularly in a tropical campaign like Ruins of Azlant. Good Fort and Will, access to spells (Shield, Mirror Image, Lead Blades for the estoc version, etc.), and Bane a few times per day? Oh, and I get a free +2 Con from the resonant power. Sign me up! :D
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Yeah, Occultist is a surprisingly powerful dip. One limiting factor, though, is that you only consider spells as on your class list if they are on the list for the implement schools that you have chosen. So, for example, shield is Abjuration, mirror image is Illusion, and lead blades is Transmutation. With a 1 level dip, you only get 2 implements, so you would not have access to all three of those spells on scrolls or wands. That would require a 2 level dip to get a 3rd implement.
You may need to bump your Intelligence up higher than planned as well, in order to get the full benefit from an Occultist dip. You only get level+Int points to distribute, and to get the +2 stat boost from Transmutation, you have to assign 3 points to that implement. Meaning unless you have a 16 INT or higher, there won't be any points left to assign to another implement. I think Illusion is the only implement that can get a benefit from 1 MF point, and that's a 5% miss chance. It's better than nothing, I suppose.
Occultist was a great dip for my high-Int Magus. On a Rogue, it's still potentially good, but requires planning for it to get the most out of it.
Yeah, Occultist is a surprisingly powerful dip. One limiting factor, though, is that you only consider spells as on your class list if they are on the list for the implement schools that you have chosen. So, for example, shield is Abjuration, mirror image is Illusion, and lead blades is Transmutation. With a 1 level dip, you only get 2 implements, so you would not have access to all three of those spells on scrolls or wands. That would require a 2 level dip to get a 3rd implement.
You may need to bump your Intelligence up higher than planned as well, in order to get the full benefit from an Occultist dip. You only get level+Int points to distribute, and to get the +2 stat boost from Transmutation, you have to assign 3 points to that implement. Meaning unless you have a 16 INT or higher, there won't be any points left to assign to another implement. I think Illusion is the only implement that can get a benefit from 1 MF point, and that's a 5% miss chance. It's better than nothing, I suppose.
Occultist was a great dip for my high-Int Magus. On a Rogue, it's still potentially good, but requires planning for it to get the most out of it.
The Silksworn Occultist gets 4 Implement Schools at 1st level and uses Cha Mod in addition to Int Mod for Mental Focus, so it might be better as a one-level dip for this Rogue. (The Extra Mental Focus feat can get you another 2 points.) It is an Arcane caster rather than Psychic, but nowadays there are lots of ways to mitigate ASF.
If you wanted to do some two weapon fighting with rapiers, you could look at Hand's Autonomy to drop the penalties.
And in case someone forgot to mention, weapon finesse has this line, "If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls", so a heavy shield may not be the best idea for a finesse build.
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Depending on the point-buy, I might start with a 12 or 14 Int and most definitely get the Extra Mental Focus feat, so 3 points in Transmutation shouldn't be a problem. I would probably want all the Focus there anyway so as to turn it into Banes. Is there a competitively strong Focus power in the other schools?
Taking two levels for three schools wouldn't be a problem for the estoc build at all. The dagger build might get more out of three levels of Snakebite Striker instead...
Silksworn sounds interesting, but I'm wary of not getting to wear or a shield (for the single-dagger build), and I was going to dump Cha to pay for Dex, Con, and Int... the Int part would fit Ruins of Azlant very well, I figure knowledge skills are going to be important.
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Is there a competitively strong Focus power in the other schools?
Not for a dip.
Though if you do take the second level in occultist, consider Haunt Collector. If I'm reading it correctly, getting the seance boon doesn't actually require you to invest focus in the implement (though the spirit bonus does). With a Champion spirit, that's basically a +2 to damage - and if you do put 2 focus in the implement, you can twice per day as a swift action add +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, Strength checks, Strength-based skill checks, and Fortitude saves for 1 round.
Most of the focus powers don't appear to scale that well - Abjuration I think is really only worth it for the spell list. Your best bet at 1st level is probably Sudden Speed. Though if you feel like a 3rd level you might consider Unseen. In that case you'll want focus in Illusion; 7 points (3 level + 2 Int + 2 feat) should give you enough to work with. And that would also make it a good implement to Haunt since the focus for Unseen is also giving you your spirit bonus.
If you take Silksworn, Necromantic Servant gives you a flank buddy whose BAB and attack bonus are based on your character's rather than occultist level. The resonant and base powers are pretty lame, though, and the spell list's not as useful as abjuration or illusion for a dip. Conjuration's also got a useful spell list if you're looking for a 4th school.
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If you wanted to do some two weapon fighting with rapiers, you could look at Hand's Autonomy to drop the penalties.
I have stylistic compunctions against fighting with two rapiers. :Þ And I really like the idea of exploring the dagger-specific aspects of the game, such as Knife Master and the Pharasma obedience.
And in case someone forgot to mention, weapon finesse has this line, "If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls", so a heavy shield may not be the best idea for a finesse build.
There's always darkwood heavy shields... but actually, I was considering sticking to a buckler so as to have a hand free for casting and other shenanigans.
@Weirdo: The Haunt Collector sounds great! I probably wouldn't sink resources into the implement other than to activate the Champion resonant power (it doesn't list a Focus cost, but you generally do have to invest a point into an implement to get its resonant power). A flat +2 to damage is great for a dagger-flurry type of character, though.
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Alright, now that I know what I want, the challenge is to fit it all into the early levels. My first impulse was to stick to URogue until Debilitating Injury and then multiclassing. However, the Occultist levels are so extremely useful that I'm tempted to put them at 2nd and 3rd. Then again, I need a +1 dagger for Legacy Weapon to unleash its power, so 2nd is probably too early after all. In any case, Brawler's Flurry is only significantly more powerful than TWF once I have Legacy Weapon, so the Snakebite levels should probably be 3rd priority...
...
Then again, I need a +1 dagger for Legacy Weapon to unleash its power, so 2nd is probably too early after all.
...
I'll just note that Magic Weapon is a 1st level Occultist spell from the Transmutation School.
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I'll just note that Magic Weapon is a 1st level Occultist spell from the Transmutation School.
Fair enough. I'm already worried about what spending a standard action on Legacy Weapon will do to my combat routine, though... I've played meleeists with buffing capability before (such as a Paladin with Divine Bond) and found myself foregoing the opportunity to buff in favor of attacking more often than not. I suppose Bane is significant enough to use even in short combats (especially against SA-proof enemies or those with DR, and especially if I need a round to move into a flank anyway), but two rounds is getting a bit unrealistic, except for those very rare premeditated fights.
Well, it wouldn't be for long, anyway. A magic dagger shouldn't be too much to ask at 3rd level. Then again, Ruins of Azlant plays in an infrastructure-poor environment, so I wouldn't count on it.
BTW, I made a spreadsheet to help me decide... currently tending toward option C. I do like the conceptual elegance of D (single dagger throughout), but I feel I'm missing out on damage potential for no real reason until I get Flurry.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pjYCxDFjfDKSmsDL19647MNBspb-e2N2b8u NzB4KLeg/edit#gid=0
I'll just note that Magic Weapon is a 1st level Occultist spell from the Transmutation School.Fair enough. I'm already worried about what spending a standard action on Legacy Weapon will do to my combat routine, though... I've played meleeists with buffing capability before (such as a Paladin with Divine Bond) and found myself foregoing the opportunity to buff in favor of attacking more often than not. I suppose Bane is significant enough to use even in short combats (especially against SA-proof enemies or those with DR, and especially if I need a round to move into a flank anyway), but two rounds is getting a bit unrealistic, except for those very rare premeditated fights.
I agree that two rounds buffing during combat is usually a bad idea. But if your party is using some form of scouting there can be time to prepare ahead. (It is why I prize Mind Eye for a straight Occultist.)
Well, it wouldn't be for long, anyway. A magic dagger shouldn't be too much to ask at 3rd level. Then again, Ruins of Azlant plays in an infrastructure-poor environment, so I wouldn't count on it.
BTW, I made a spreadsheet to help me decide... currently tending toward option C. I do like the conceptual elegance of D (single dagger throughout), but I feel I'm missing out on damage potential for no real reason until I get Flurry.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pjYCxDFjfDKSmsDL19647MNBspb-e2N2b8u NzB4KLeg/edit#gid=0
And, in case you aren't aware of it yet, you might want to consider the River Rat Trait for your dagger build.
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Thanks, I'm aware of River Rat, and I've already taken it into account in the «spotlight» calculations in the Google Sheet.
I'm actually tempted to make the character a Halfling for the dramatic irony of doing all that damage with a single 1d3 dagger. :o) The step from 1d3 to 1d4 is only 0.5 dmg, and I do get +1 to hit and +1 AC in return... it's just that I'm going to be ridiculously ineffective in the earliest game when I don't get SA. :Þ Well, at least I can get out about 6 dmg with TWF, which is comparable to a one-handed weapon from a secondary combattant or a beginning archer. Unfortunately, I can't pull off D with a Halfling since I need the human feat slot to get Slashing Grace at 1st.
Halfling is a great choice thematically as well; I expect him to be the Halfling equivalent of an autist (Cha 9), have grown up on privateer ships in Sargava, wear black-and-white skull facepaint for special occasions in Pharasma's honor, speak in an unsettlingly purry voice, and serve as the colony's official midwife. He is an expert in ghosts and spirits and is looking forward to meeting some of Azlant's restless citizens.
So, Debilitating Injury... just how good is it in practice? I suppose it only really works against enemies tough enough to survive a round of sneak attacks in the first place. ;o) But I could imagine it turning the tide against such an enemy. Might be worth prioritizing that above Bane and Flurry. What do you think? I'm a great fan of Bardic Performance, and this seems to go in a similarly synergetic direction.
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I've added a scenario E in which the Slashing Grace is trained out for TWF as soon as the built-in Dex-to-damage comes online. Looks like the best-of-all-worlds build right now, though it comes at the price of being Human... the difference between this build and C (TWF at 1st, no Dex to damage until 3rd) becomes very small at 3rd level and after, which tells me I probably shouldn't let my wish for Slashing Grace at 1st determine the character's race. I suppose I'd go for build C with a Halfling and just enjoy occasionally doing piddly damage during the first two levels. ;o)
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We're getting close to finishing our current Hell's Rebels game, and Ruins of Azlant is a top contender for the next campaign... so it's time to dig up that Rogue/Occultist again! :)
I've been wondering whether I shouldn't put more weight on the Occultist side, since its object-oriented flavor fits the archeological tune of Azlant so well. I've also noticed that there's a Vigilante archetype that subsumes some of the Occultist's key features. The Vigilante comes with other nice combat options, but the whole Dual Identity schtick would be wasted on that campaign.
Is the Psychometrist a worthwhile choice for an Occultist-flavored character, or would I be better off with something like Occultist/Fighter, Occultist/Brawler or even Occultist/Shifter...?