Solarion Key Ability is Charisma?

[Deadmanwalking]

Bloodrealm wrote:

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Bloodrealm wrote:

Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me in D&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE! Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!

If you don't like anything about the game, why are you here?

Because I wanted to see what others thought of the game, and like I said, the Solarian seemed cool?

Getting away from the dogpile, which I admit seems unnecessary, I'm legitimately interested in hearing why you think Solarian is a crippled mess. Because I'm pretty sure I can prove it's not.

Which would presumably be something you'd like, right? Finding out the class you think is cool thematically is also good mechanically?

d'Eon wrote:

Charm doesn't fail in combat, they just get a +5 bonus to their save. Not amazing, but it does seem to work without completely falling apart.

We'd need to see the expected saves for a CD 6 critter to get a sense of how likely it is to work in combat, but I think you could easily get a DC of 17-18 at level 6.

Well, looking at the stuff in First Contact, low Saves in the CR 3-7 range (relevant because fighting mutiple lower CR creatures is gonna be common) are between +1 and +7 (only weakly correlated with CR). So...if the foe has a low Will Save, yeah, that's probably an option.

The other possibility of course, as mentioned, is walking up and Charming someone as your action starting the fight. Then they're charmed and you can control them as per Command.

It usually being a utility effect doesn't mean it shouldn't have a combat option, even if it's a rarely used one.

[Vidmaster7]

Deadmanwalking is correct I've seen the numbers hes ran. Solarion is highest dps class in the game.

[bookrat]

So if three people respond to you, that's now dogpiling.

And if you say something provocative, and people respond, you're allowed to make them feel guilty for responding, and apparently that's in no way trolling (sprinkled with a bit of concern).

If you're serious about your comments, then present a cogent argument instead of insulting various games. You'll get less of a "dogpile" than you would making a provocative comment.

[MR. H]

Solarian is the most difficult class. High ceiling low floor. It's easy to make a solarian that is a party corpse. Even without doing mind numbingly stupid things like dipping blitz soldier and dumping cha.

You can still not take solar armor or heavy armor with low dex and be a melee focused character that just dies a lot. Solarian has a lot going for it and can easily be the most powerful party member (not just on damage). But you can also be also be the weakest.

[Metaphysician]

Huh. Would it be unbalancing if Solarians didn't have to choose between Solar Weapon and Solar Armor, they just got both?

[Ravingdork]

Metaphysician wrote:

Huh. Would it be unbalancing if Solarians didn't have to choose between Solar Weapon and Solar Armor, they just got both?

I for one watched all of my friends get really excited for the Solarion, only to have them groaning in dismay once they realized they had to choose between the two abilities.

[Tarik Blackhands]

I honestly doubt it. The two build toward fairly mutually exclusive builds (ranged armor vs cqc weapon). Being able to pick and choose your mote's form (or even having the option to use both at once) probably isn't going to upset much.

On the vein of balance edits though, anyone think it would be that huge a deal if stellar mode got changed from notable combat only to high stress situation?

I think it would limit some silliness like an armor solarian freezing to death on Hoth because he can't get his cold resistance up unless a Wampa happens to attack and allow for them to shine with infiltrations with stealth warp/worm holes or prepare a combat zone as a bunch of pirates are laser cutting their way in with directional grav shields and the like.

Or just allowing them to prebuff in general I guess.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, it's not a big deal at all to be able to switch between them. Being able to do both gets a little weird, but probably still isn't a huge power up.

[bookrat]

Having both is no worse than the synthesist summoner. And that class wasn't too over powered.

[MagicA]

I would love to have both
It frankly wouldn't be too powerful

[Kyron "Death Knell" Shess]

Redelia wrote:

Has anyone actually built a solarian with Cha of at least 16? Everyone keeps saying it won't work, but I'm not so sure. Such a solarian would concentrate more on using revelations and less on normal damage in combat, and also concentrate on CHA based skills; probably built to be a captain in space combat.

My PFS solarion has Str 16, Dex 13, Cha 16. So far he has been the highest DPS in combat, and the party face. In fact I have made far more roles that utilized my Charisma bonus than I have rolls that used my Strength bonus.

[McAllister]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

On the vein of balance edits though, anyone think it would be that huge a deal if stellar mode got changed from notable combat only to high stress situation?

Compromise: what if they could attune out of combat, but not rack up points toward full attunement? I suspect the reason for that limitation is to prevent people from opening every combat with a zenith revelation, which seems like a good choice, but I agree that they should have access to their other powers out of combat, generally speaking.

[Tarik Blackhands]

McAllister wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

On the vein of balance edits though, anyone think it would be that huge a deal if stellar mode got changed from notable combat only to high stress situation?

Compromise: what if they could attune out of combat, but not rack up points toward full attunement? I suspect the reason for that limitation is to prevent people from opening every combat with a zenith revelation, which seems like a good choice, but I agree that they should have access to their other powers out of combat, generally speaking.

I figure that's fair. You can do something like allowing Sidreal Influence to lock you into a mode out of combat to give you access to some powered up revelations but still keep an opportunity cost if you want to swap.

That said, I think being able to transform your mote into your weapon/armor should be available any time. I find it a bit insulting the cosmos don't let you keep your lightsaber at the ready during a dungeon crawl just because the immediate threat is ended.

[Hiruma Kai]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

That said, I think being able to transform your mote into your weapon/armor should be available any time. I find it a bit insulting the cosmos don't let you keep your lightsaber at the ready during a dungeon crawl just because the immediate threat is ended.

Wait, isn't your Solar weapon available at all times? Solar Manifestation (i.e. Solar Weapon or Solar Armor) is completely separate from Solar Mode (i.e. Graviton Mode or Photon Mode and attunement). As far as I know, there is not restriction to walking around in Solar Armor 100% of the time, for example. In SFS play, my Solarian has been doing just that.

[Tarik Blackhands]

*rereads entry*

Huh, you're right. I could have sworn it was linked to stellar mode. Must have gotten confused by the light emission line at the end.

My bad.

[Bloodrealm]

When I read the Solar Manifestation, I was expecting partway through for there to be a class feature for "at X level, you may choose to have your Solar Manifestation be Solar Armour or a Solar Weapon form, but not both at once. At Y level, your Solar manifestation may be both Solar armour and a Solar Weapon simultaneously."

Deadmanwalking wrote:

... I'm legitimately interested in hearing why you think Solarian is a crippled mess.

Well, crippled mess was admittedly an exaggeration, but what everyone had been saying in the thread was the same types of things from discussions on why CRB Monk was bad, e.g. being way too MAD and not having things that it really ought to and seemed to be designed to have.

[bookrat]

MAD is no longer an issue. Every five levels, you boost FOUR ability scores by +2.

[McAllister]

bookrat wrote:

MAD is no longer an issue. Every five levels, you boost FOUR ability scores by +2.

"No longer an issue" seems like an exqaggeration. "No longer crippling" would be a better way to put it. MAD classes are still stretching their initial points thinner, and by the time they're getting even with those +2/+2/+2/+2 boosts, they're facing harder choices than other classes about where to spend their personal upgrade credits.

[MagicA]

McAllister does bring up a good point there

[Metaphysician]

I actually did mean "both weapon and armor at once", yes. My admittedly off-the-cuff logic is that. . . solar armor is kind of fairly minor. Sure, AC bonuses are rare, but an AC bonus that only works with light armor is somewhat limited. It basically means you get AC halfway between light and heavy. Its a buff, but hardly an overwhelming one: they'll still be less well armored than melee Soldiers.

[MagicA]

Metaphysician wrote:

I actually did mean "both weapon and armor at once", yes. My admittedly off-the-cuff logic is that. . . solar armor is kind of fairly minor. Sure, AC bonuses are rare, but an AC bonus that only works with light armor is somewhat limited. It basically means you get AC halfway between light and heavy. Its a buff, but hardly an overwhelming one: they'll still be less well armored than melee Soldiers.

It also gives you fire resistance, which is the most common energy damage type in the game

so there's that to consider

[bookrat]

McAllister wrote:

bookrat wrote:

MAD is no longer an issue. Every five levels, you boost FOUR ability scores by +2.

"No longer an issue" seems like an exqaggeration. "No longer crippling" would be a better way to put it. MAD classes are still stretching their initial points thinner, and by the time they're getting even with those +2/+2/+2/+2 boosts, they're facing harder choices than other classes about where to spend their personal upgrade credits.

It was only ever crippling for people who believed that if you didn't start with an 18 in your main stat, then you were doing it wrong.

Even the most MAD class in SF can end up with five 18s by end game just in level bonuses, and only be a few points behind the most SAD class in their highest stat (who will have a 22, so only +2 modifier difference). And also have a larger total bonus.

Progression:

18 12 12 10 10 10 (+6)
19 14 14 12 10 10 (+9)
20 16 16 14 10 10 (+13)
21 18 18 16 10 10 (+16)
22 19 19 18 10 10 (+18)

16 12 12 12 10 10 (+6)
18 14 14 14 10 10 (+10)
19 16 16 16 10 10 (+13)
20 18 18 18 10 10 (+17)
21 19 19 19 10 10 (+17)

16 16 10 10 10 10 (+6)
18 18 12 12 10 10 (+10)
19 19 14 14 10 10 (+12)
20 20 16 16 10 10 (+16)
21 21 18 18 10 10 (+18)

14 14 12 12 10 10 (+6)
16 16 14 12 12 10 (+10)
18 18 16 14 14 10 (+15)
18 18 16 16 16 12 (+18)
18 18 18 18 18 14 (+22)

Saying it's simply "less crippling" is an exaggeration - especially considering that they're never more than 10% apart on the d20 for their highest stat.

[Deadmanwalking]

Bloodrealm wrote:

Well, crippled mess was admittedly an exaggeration, but what everyone had been saying in the thread was the same types of things from discussions on why CRB Monk was bad, e.g. being way too MAD and not having things that it really ought to and seemed to be designed to have.

Solarian has just about everything it really needs, IMO. Some other stuff would be nice, but not absolutely required. If you have specific examples, I'd be happy to refute them.

And, as noted, MADness is vastly less of a downside in Starfinder than Pathfinder. And I do mean vastly.

[MagicA]

I still wish that they had the choice between wisdom or Cha for their key baility

it would represent how some solarians stuyd and train for their powers, or harness them from the force of their own will

my 2 credits

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

MagicA wrote:

I still wish that they had the choice between wisdom or Cha for their key baility

it would represent how some solarians stuyd and train for their powers, or harness them from the force of their own will

my 2 credits

I'd be fine with that, except that Wisdom Solarions aren't going to have much to do in Star Ship combat.

[MagicA]

they can be decent gunners

[Space McMan]

MagicA wrote:

I still wish that they had the choice between wisdom or Cha for their key baility

it would represent how some solarians stuyd and train for their powers, or harness them from the force of their own will

my 2 credits

A wis solarian would be strictly better than a cha solarian in any situation where they are not the only cha character in the party. An evnoy or spy operative will make an equally good or better face and captain.

For starship combat, a wis solarian could do what the cha solarian does now when there's a better captain and take ace pilot or go gunner.

A wis solarian gets a primary stat that provides a save (this is huge), boosts perception, sense motive, and mysticism skills (all universally valuable skills) and as the cherry on top, the iconic solarian being a kasathas make more sense.

Unless I knew I was the party's only option for a face character, I'd always go wis solarian, just for the better will saves and perception checks.

[The Professor]

I just muliclassed in with Soldier, and picked powers that don't give saves like the combat buffs. This got me Heavy Armor, +10 speed, +4 Init, and Str as a Key Ability. It does make me less Mystical and slow my Solar Weapon, but I can get use the Soldier levels to get static bonuses to damage. Also the skills it added to My class list meant when I was assigning Skill adept, I could pick up all of the Starship skills.

[HWalsh]

Bloodrealm wrote:

When I read the Solar Manifestation, I was expecting partway through for there to be a class feature for "at X level, you may choose to have your Solar Manifestation be Solar Armour or a Solar Weapon form, but not both at once. At Y level, your Solar manifestation may be both Solar armour and a Solar Weapon simultaneously."

Deadmanwalking wrote:

... I'm legitimately interested in hearing why you think Solarian is a crippled mess.

Well, crippled mess was admittedly an exaggeration, but what everyone had been saying in the thread was the same types of things from discussions on why CRB Monk was bad, e.g. being way too MAD and not having things that it really ought to and seemed to be designed to have.

Just to pop in...

Solarians are not "too MAD" depending on the build you go for you are either focusing on Dex and Charisma (for ranged Solarian w/ Solar Armor and Longarms) or you are focusing on Str and Charisma (for melee Solarian w/ Solar Weapon and Heavy Armor) you can start with a 16/14 as any race that can put a +2 in Charisma or Strength - Or as a Lashunta a 16/16...

By level 5 you are caught up with someone who borderline gimped themselves by going with an 18 out of the gate. Yes, gimped themselves, going for an 18 out of the starting line is largely not worth the meager benefit it gives.

This game is not Pathfinder, the Pathfinder way of character design need not apply in Starfinder. My guide shows this definitively.

Someone in this thread is going with the Korasha Lashunta 16 Str, 13 Dex, 16 Charisma build, probably heavy armor, which is what I recommend for melee Solarian...

They will be the highest DPS in the game and... Oh yeah, they are the highest DPS in the game. I would hardly call a class that can potentially cap EAC/KAC and maximize damage while getting to a 50% chance to save vs everything at max level while simultaneously tying the Operative in 1-2 skills of their choice crippled.

(Mine at level 1 rocked a +8 in Piloting (as a non-dex character!) and a +9 in Diplomacy without even trying. Had I wanted to push it I could have gotten to a +13...)